Titanium--Moly--Zinc--Phosphorus Lubrication

[GROGAN]

I've read so many posts regarding lubrication on this wonderful site.....

Some say increase zinc and phosphorus and moly as some oils like Redline do....Some say decrease zinc and phosphorus and moly as these hurt cams and foul things up later in the engine's life....
Oil companies have decreased zinc and phosphorus and moly accordingly in recent years....

Now some companies,,, and more are on the horizon,, are using and/or will be using Titanium for super lubrication in oil...

Does zinc and phosphorous and moly really hurt an engine in the long term...? What are safe numbers for zinc phosphorus and moly content..??


Are oils with extremely high zinc and phosphorous and moly bad in the long run for engines...?

How is Titanium different and does it have negative possibilities..? Can titanium be mixed with zinc and phosphorus and moly..?

The questions are for passenger cars and trucks not racing cars...

Thanks..

 

[bmwtechguy]

Great questions for Molakule. He knows the chemistry better than most here at bitog. I know that the phosphorous portion of ZDDP is mostly known for reducing the effectiveness of the catalytic converter if the level of additive is high enough and if the engine is consuming oil. The answers to your questions are most likely fairly complex as many additives are multi-functional, and many times it is the balance of different additives that determines the outcome for results such as reduced engine wear, cleanliness, and, lubricant longevity. Also keep in mind that formulators often put in just enough good stuff to get by because additives cost money and these companies are in it for profit and are competing with others for pricepoint in a somewhat commodity lubricant market.

 

[dixon700]

Ive been told to use a zddp additive in my truck. It has 110lb(a heavier spring) which I've been told causes more cam wear. So I'm curious about zddp additives.

 

[salv]

What I find interesting is that a couple of the oils that commonly use titanium, Mobil Super and Kendall, do not have titanium in their Dexos certified oils.
Either the titanium additives leave too much of a film to pass Dexos piston cleanliness standards, or the additive packages as a whole are not up to Dexos standards. Castrol Edge with Titanium has similar levels to Mobil Super, yet carries Dexos approval.

 

[volk06]

Originally Posted By: salv
What I find interesting is that a couple of the oils that commonly use titanium, Mobil Super and Kendall, do not have titanium in their Dexos certified oils.
Either the titanium additives leave too much of a film to pass Dexos piston cleanliness standards, or the additive packages as a whole are not up to Dexos standards. Castrol Edge with Titanium has similar levels to Mobil Super, yet carries Dexos approval.


Neither of your scenarios are correct about the titanium additive and DEXOS. The titianum additive is still in testing with GM for Kendall. It was cheaper and easier to get an oil to market with a dexos approved additive package then go through the certification of their liquid titanium molecule. Most companies buy SN additive packages that already meet dexos approval so the companies that formulate their own, it takes a while longer. You're also comparing apples to oranges, ie edge vs super.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: [censored
]Does zinc and phosphorous and moly really hurt an engine in the long term...? What are safe numbers for zinc phosphorus and moly content..??

MolaKule is a good resource for this information, as has already been pointed out. There is also a wealth of information on the main page.

Generally speaking, lubes are compromises and things are application dependent. There are levels of zinc that are corrosive, but you're not likely to run into that unless you're running a dedicated racing oil or are playing with additives. I get a little edgy if zinc approaches 1500 ppm. Phosphorous can be hard on catalytic converters, yes. If oil consumption isn't an issue, then the phosphorous is less of an issue. With respect to moly, I wouldn't worry about the amounts you'll see in any fully formulated motor oil from any respectable oil company.

As for what additives perform best with each other, I don't think you'll find a lot of definitive information here. Much of that would be proprietary information to various oil companies or available only in the literature of the relevant fields.

With respect to zinc and phosphorous, one must remember that the motor oils of old (before limitations came into place) didn't have these large zinc levels we incorrectly remember. Most oils had similar levels to what we see today at the upper limits.

 

[GROGAN]

[/quote]
MolaKule is a good resource for this information, as has already been pointed out. There is also a wealth of information on the main page.

Generally speaking, lubes are compromises and things are application dependent. There are levels of zinc that are corrosive, but you're not likely to run into that unless you're running a dedicated racing oil or are playing with additives. I get a little edgy if zinc approaches 1500 ppm. company.



[/quote]






Thanks, but that leads to a question,,,,if 1500 is high for zinc content and high phosphorus is bad,,,
then I saw 2 VOA for Redline 5w 20 and 5w 30 with zinc levels of 1490 and 1710 ,,,,,,and phosphorus levels of 1300 and 1400....

Moly was 683...

Is it then bad to use a high zinc and phosphorus oil like Redline ??? Will using this cause problems down the road../

Thanks

 

[Garak]

That really depends on your application. If it's got a flat tappet cam with high spring pressures, the zinc level might be useful. But, if it's a more conventional engine (i.e. roller cams or lower pressure valve springs) with a catalytic converter, that might be a bit high.

Personally, I'd be avoiding anything with 1710 ppm of zinc unless it were a racing application. I think Red Line products are fantastic, but a lube like that would be serious overkill (including from a cost perspective) in a normal passenger vehicle application.