Oil change too soon in new 2013 Honda Civic?

[Artem]

Blackstone mentions that too much metallic bits in the oil makes it abrasive and they have a condemnation point for when there is too much.

From the hundreds of UOAs I've seen, the sample is always loaded with metal shavings. Obviously the oil filter caught most of the serious still but the finer stuff is still flowing through the block. Why anyone would want this in their engine for 7, 8, or 9,000 miles before removing is beyond me!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Carl_Stammerjohn
I jumped the gun on our new Civic and had the first oil change at 1700 miles. Afterwards, I read that this might actually hurt the engine by not giving it a good break-in period.

Did I really screw up, or did I just waste $70? Or both...


Only once in 1700 mi? By that time i have changed the oil 2 times on a new engine.
I say you did well.


X2. I also did early oil changes on both my 2007 Civics (an Si with a 2.0L and an EX with a 1.8L) and both cars lead a very healthy life up until the end... Both produced spectacular UOAs as well.

I honestly believe that engines are well broken in after a few hundred miles of spinning.

Race car engines are broken in on a dyno and are considered good to go after a few hours of run in time.

I strongly believe that Honda, as well as all other manufacturers just want to seem "Green" by telling us to run the oil until the regular scheduled maintenance because the engine will be "just fine" even with a bit of metallic shavings in the oil, scrapping the engine block for 5, 6, 7,000 miles etc. I personally prefer to get that stuff out sooner rather then later.



I agree. I like the oil out early. If someone was to send oil off to a lab after 1,000 miles of use in a new engine and make the claim that the engine had 50,000 miles on it and the oil was only in service 1,000 miles, I'd love to see the remarks in the UOA thread. Anyone care to speculate on the comments? Lets put it this way, most people would freak, probably condemn the oil and the engine, and say to dump the oil, etc., etc. I wouldn't want that junk in my engine till the OLM tells me to dump it, especially a new one that's breaking in.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Some automotive machinists CIRCA 1973 will tell you that you need to change your oil after
the first 20 minutes, then the second fill after 300 miles. Third fill regular OCI.


Fixed!

 

[antiqueshell]

Folks there may be some metal particles in the FF oil, however that is exactly what the oil filter is for...to prevent those shavings from getting to the engine itself, which it does perfectly.

Not to mention that with modern engines the machining process and cleaning process is so good that the amount of that metal is absolutely miniscule.


Honda makes some of the best, durable, trouble free, and long lasting engines in the business, if they recommend leaving in the FF with those extra additives for a certain time period, then I would heed their advice.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Folks there may be some metal particles in the FF oil, however that is exactly what the oil filter is for...to prevent those shavings from getting to the engine itself, which it does perfectly.

Not to mention that with modern engines the machining process and cleaning process is so good that the amount of that metal is absolutely miniscule.


Honda makes some of the best, durable, trouble free, and long lasting engines in the business, if they recommend leaving in the FF with those extra additives for a certain time period, then I would heed their advice.




I think you hit the nail right on the head. Have some faith in Honda's engineers.

 

[SIXSPEED]

Why not change the oil early and use a 0W20 synthetic that's loaded with Moly such as Mazda oil? It's pricey but still less than a $70 oil change. I wouldn't lose any sleep over changing the oil early.

http://www.amazon.com/MAZDA-FULL-SYNTHET...+motor+oil+0w20

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Folks there may be some metal particles in the FF oil, however that is exactly what the oil filter is for...to prevent those shavings from getting to the engine itself, which it does perfectly.

Not to mention that with modern engines the machining process and cleaning process is so good that the amount of that metal is absolutely miniscule.

Honda makes some of the best, durable, trouble free, and long lasting engines in the business, if they recommend leaving in the FF with those extra additives for a certain time period, then I would heed their advice.



The filter doesn't get everything out, and engines aren't built in pristine sterile environments. If it did then why is there still elevated wear metals in new engines breaking in? Shouldn't the filter be trapping it? Parts have to wear into each other during break in, that throws off metals, some of which aren't trapped by the filter.

If the filter did exactly what you said QUOTE:[however that is exactly what the oil filter is for...to prevent those shavings from getting to the engine itself, which it does perfectly.] Then there'd be no metals in the engine or the oil, they'd be trapped in the filter and not picked up by a UOA report. The fact that they are elevated in new engines in a UOA report means the filter is allowing even more metals to circulate in a new engine.

Take two identical engines with the identical filter used on both engines, one new, one broken in. Why will the new engine have higher wear metals than the broken in engine if the filter is doing its job? If the new engine has higher wear metals, why?

Minuscule particles filters miss can cause wear and damage too.

 

[901Memphis]

The Honda filters are notoriously in efficient iirc, so they will allow plenty of wear metals to circulate freely. I would have dumped it early too, but made sure to replace it with another good oil such as the Mazda as mentioned.

Filter mags greatly reduce Fe particle count in a UOA, I wish I had it on my engine since new but it's on there now.

 

[antiqueshell]

@Demanpaint:

So are you implying that Honda engineers are aiming to cause increased wear in their engines? I'm sure customers would love that.

The fact is that Honda manufactured hundreds of millions of cars over the years and if what you speak of was indeed a notable issue it would have been addressed a loooong time ago.

Bottom line is that with Honda engine manufacturing processes and the oil filter in place those miniscule number of filings are of no potential threat to the overall functioning or durability of the units.

Now if you could get the OE honda factory fill with that unique additive pack they use I would be in agreement with changing the oil early since you would still have specified fluid in during the initial service interval.


If you guys can point out a correctly documented case of any Honda car engine in the past two decades being damaged by the factory recommended break in fill period please post it. I would be interested to see it.

 

[demarpaint]

Antique: You were making claims like this: [Folks there may be some metal particles in the FF oil, however that is exactly what the oil filter is for...to prevent those shavings from getting to the engine itself, which it does perfectly.] Show me a filter that filters those small particles out perfectly. Then show me a UOA report on a new engine that doesn't have excess wear metals. While your at it show me an engine that failed from changing the oil early.

I agreed with Artem saying Honda wants to keep it green, then again so does everyone else.

 

[fdcg27]

I bought a '12 Accord last November.
I really struggled with the idea of leaving the FF in until 15% MM but I did so based upon the strongly worded directive in the OM.
I'd paid attention to the OM on this.
The OM is probably a more reliable source than anything you'll find here or elsewhere.
Anyway, you've done the deed and have likely done no harm.
You paid way too much, though.
I changed my '12 at 8700 miles and 15% MM with a jug of PP 0W-20 that ran around five bucks after rebate and a P1 from Pep Boys that cost $3.49 BOGO.
Learn to change your own oil!

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell


Both....

The factory fill is a break in oil that has very high amounts of moly in it and possibly other additives as well.

Many Honda owners manuals recommend that you leave this fill in until the factory change interval.

As far as folks claiming that there are too many metal fragments in the factory oil because it is a new engine...even if there was, which is not too likely, the oil filter does the job to remove these.


That begs the question though, of why UOAs for new engines show high amounts of contaminants, which reduce as the engine breaks in....


Regardless of the quality of the FF, the engine WILL break in fine with an early oil change; using a good quality oil, an early change won't hurt anything.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell


Both....

The factory fill is a break in oil that has very high amounts of moly in it and possibly other additives as well.

Many Honda owners manuals recommend that you leave this fill in until the factory change interval.

As far as folks claiming that there are too many metal fragments in the factory oil because it is a new engine...even if there was, which is not too likely, the oil filter does the job to remove these.


That begs the question though, of why UOAs for new engines show high amounts of contaminants, which reduce as the engine breaks in....


The answer is actually pretty simple.

A. The new engine sheds more metal until it breaks in.
B. The filter doesn't trap as much contaminants as some of us think it does. As the engine breaks in there's less metals being shed. The filter isn't filtering any better there's just less junk for it to deal with.

Now if a person feels comfortable leaving the FF in for a full OCI go for it. If changing the oil and filter makes you feel better based on the information and UOA's presented in these same threads, over and over again then drop it early.

 

[Trav]

I agree. Another point is the difference in individual engines.
We have all seen the amount of particles shed by small engines that don't use a filter, some shed much more than others as can be seen in the amount of sparklers in the first OC.

IMO the more rubbish floating around the greater chance of the hard particles scratching or scoring parts in the engine especially parts that are pre filter like the oil pump.
How much this actually reduces engine life or impacts performance of these parts i have no idea but i would rather them not being there when the cost of prevention is so low.

 

[ammolab]

I did change my 2009 CR-V @ 1500 miles as I was going to pull my 1500lb 2 bike trailer across 800 miles of 113*F 80mph Texas interstate. Put I a good synthetic then and now at 55,000 miles I have no issues to report.

I do not think it makes any big difference either way these days, run it out or dump it early = same, same.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell


If you guys can point out a correctly documented case of any Honda car engine in the past two decades being damaged by the factory recommended break in fill period please post it. I would be interested to see it.

Still waiting.

The proof as they say is in the pudding.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Folks there may be some metal particles in the FF oil, however that is exactly what the oil filter is for...to prevent those shavings from getting to the engine itself, which it does perfectly.

Not to mention that with modern engines the machining process and cleaning process is so good that the amount of that metal is absolutely miniscule.


Honda makes some of the best, durable, trouble free, and long lasting engines in the business, if they recommend leaving in the FF with those extra additives for a certain time period, then I would heed their advice.




I think you hit the nail right on the head. Have some faith in Honda's engineers.



Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
@Demanpaint:

So are you implying that Honda engineers are aiming to cause increased wear in their engines? I'm sure customers would love that.


If it were up to the Honda Engineers, and their goal was to achieve the utmost engine health, I have no doubt in my mind that they would recommend that the owner change the oil after 10 miles of gentle break-in, then again after 50 miles, then again after 100 miles, just to remove the main break-in metallic bits and flush the engine with fresh oil.

Of course at the end of the day, its not up to the Honda Engineers. Their job is done. Honda's Finance team then takes over and goes - WHATEVER MAKES THEM THE MOST PROFIT!

If they're paying for maintenance on the new vehicle, they don't want to waste money on the first, EARLY oil change on millions of cars sold.

If they're trying to make the buyer believe that purchasing their vehicle is the best value due to it's low cost of maintenance, having all the new owners bring the cars in for the first EARLY oil change after having purchased the car just a month ago, would be BAD BUSINESS.

I strongly believe everything is designed to either:

A: Make the manufacturer money

or

B: Save the owner money on maintenance.

At the end of the day, nobody gives a rats rear end about the engine. Chances are, you'll wreck the car before the warranty expires, or will sell it in order to get the newest, best thing.

At the end of the day, the engines will handle whatever you throw at them and will still be "fine" after 100k, 200k or more of use. We all know this. The question isn't about extending engine life, because honestly, how many of us will run that same car for 300K to actually see any benefit? It's about the technicality of it and if I had unlimited resources and money, I'd prove that dumping the abrasive factory fill oil is BEST!

 

[crazyoildude]

This is one of the only places where some of my fellow posters know so much more about their engines than the people that built them or even the people that rebuild them.

 

[901Memphis]

I think $70 is the going rate for a shop to do a synthetic change these days.

 

[stchman]

Complete manure, every new vehicle I've ever owned I've changed the oil at roughly 1000 miles then the manufacturer's OCI. I've never had a problem with lubrication.