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#3143820 - 10/03/13 01:07 PM BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!!
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Was talking to a friend the other night and he was talking about his buddy's BMW M5 that takes this "special" oil. After some reading, it turns out BMW M-cars take a 10W60 engine oil.

10W60 is a really odd viscosity. It looks like oil of that viscosity costs about $15 a quart.

My thing is WHY? Why such an odd viscosity? The BMW M5 has 560HP and the Cadillac CTS-V has 556HP. The difference is the Cadillac can use normal Mobil 1 5W30 while the BMW has to have 10W60.

Heck even the ZR1 with its 638HP engine uses Mobil 1 5W30.

I just don't understand why BMW wanted to do this. Is it a European thing? Is 10W60 like 5W30 is here in the US?
_________________________
2013 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ 2WD 5.3L
Mobil 1 5W-30
AC Delco PF48

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#3143830 - 10/03/13 01:13 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bdcardinal Offline


Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 6678
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
They have done it since the early 00's IIRC. I was told they were having issues with engine failures and the 10W60 cured it.
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#3143833 - 10/03/13 01:17 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bdcardinal]
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
They have done it since the early 00's IIRC. I was told they were having issues with engine failures and the 10W60 cured it.


So the "Ultimate Driving Machine" was having engine failures? Not very ultimate.
_________________________
2013 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ 2WD 5.3L
Mobil 1 5W-30
AC Delco PF48

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#3143838 - 10/03/13 01:19 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
It's an Ultimate Driving Machine. They never claimed it to be an Ultimate Reliability Machine. LOL
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
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#3143840 - 10/03/13 01:20 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bdcardinal Offline


Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 6678
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
They have done it since the early 00's IIRC. I was told they were having issues with engine failures and the 10W60 cured it.


So the "Ultimate Driving Machine" was having engine failures? Not very ultimate.


The M cars tend to be driven very hard. FWIW Ford uses 5W50 in the GT500's, BOSS302s, and Track Pack Mustang GTs. Corvette Racing uses 0W50 in their C6R's.
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#3143846 - 10/03/13 01:23 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
shDK Offline


Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 548
Loc: Denmark
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.

bmw m engines often rev higher then the American pushrod engines. Maybe it has something to do with it?

10-60 is however often used in tuning communities.

I think 5-30 and 5-40 is most used in Europe.

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#3143901 - 10/03/13 02:07 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: shDK]
UG_Passat Offline


Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 1085
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.



Audi specs it for the R8 GT.

I wouldn't be suprised if Lambo uses it also

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#3143902 - 10/03/13 02:07 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bepperb Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 4810
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
10-60 is clearly twice as good as 5-30. One more thing the Germans are way ahead of us on.


Edited by bepperb (10/03/13 02:07 PM)
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#3143904 - 10/03/13 02:09 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as well.

More recently, BMW's M cars stopped coming with high-revving naturally aspirated engines, and gradually switched to lower-revving turbocharged engines. With that change, they switched back to the 5w-30.

As for why any BMW engines ever used the 10w-60, oil temperatures are probably the main reason. BMW M cars are designed to run on race tracks all day, even in the hottest temperatures. In those conditions, oil temps on the high-RPM engines can exceed 300º F. It's crucially important to have an oil that doesn't thin out too much at those temps. Also, as I said earlier, the specific 10w-60 that BMW uses is a custom-made product, so it has (supposedly) the perfect blend of base stocks and additives for the cars that spec it.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3143905 - 10/03/13 02:10 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bdcardinal]
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
They have done it since the early 00's IIRC. I was told they were having issues with engine failures and the 10W60 cured it.


So the "Ultimate Driving Machine" was having engine failures? Not very ultimate.


The M cars tend to be driven very hard. FWIW Ford uses 5W50 in the GT500's, BOSS302s, and Track Pack Mustang GTs. Corvette Racing uses 0W50 in their C6R's.


And a ZR1 won't be driven hard?
_________________________
2013 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ 2WD 5.3L
Mobil 1 5W-30
AC Delco PF48

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#3143907 - 10/03/13 02:11 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It's an Ultimate Driving Machine. They never claimed it to be an Ultimate Reliability Machine. LOL


Love the sense of humor, QP. I am sure you love your Bimmer but you can take the comments in stride. Wish more could. My Audi A6 twin turbo was FABULOUS to drive but it also was not a stranger to the Audi service bays.


Edited by pscholte (10/03/13 02:13 PM)
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Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3143908 - 10/03/13 02:11 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
A ZR1 doesn't have piston speeds higher than those of a Formula 1 car.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3143922 - 10/03/13 02:18 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
Interestingly enough, I'm looking at the US owner's manual of a 2013 M5, and read the following:

Quote:
Viscosity grades for engine oils
When selecting an engine oil, ensure that the engine oil belongs to the viscosity grade SAE 0W-30 or SAE 0W-40 or malfunctions or engine damage may occur.
Alternatively, also engine oils with viscosity grades SAE 5W-30 or SAE 5W-40 may be used
The engine oil quality is critical for the life of the
engine.
Some types of oils in some cases are not available in all countries.

Approved oil types
Specification
ACEA A3/B4
API SK/CF or superior grade specification


Strangely no mention of LL-01 spec. And API SK? What is that? There never was such a thing. smile

_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3143930 - 10/03/13 02:22 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Interestingly enough, I'm looking at the US owner's manual of a 2013 M5, and read the following:

Quote:
Viscosity grades for engine oils
When selecting an engine oil, ensure that
the engine oil belongs to the viscosity grade
SAE 0W-30 or SAE 0W-40 or malfunctions or
engine damage may occur.
Alternatively, also engine oils with viscosity
grades SAE 5W-30 or SAE 5W-40 may be
used.◀
The engine oil quality is critical for the life of the
engine.
Some types of oils in some cases are not avail‐
able in all countries.
Approved oil types
Specification
ACEA A3/B4
API SK/CF or superior grade specification


Strangely no mention of LL-01 spec. And API SK? What is that? There never was such a thing. smile



You MUST use 0W-30 or -40 or engine damage may occur. You MUST do this...unless of course you want to use 5w-30 or -40. SK oil comes from SKandinavia (sic)


Edited by pscholte (10/03/13 02:23 PM)
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3143931 - 10/03/13 02:22 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Maybe that's a typo on API SJ?
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3143937 - 10/03/13 02:26 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3143938 - 10/03/13 02:26 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: pscholte]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pscholte
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It's an Ultimate Driving Machine. They never claimed it to be an Ultimate Reliability Machine. LOL


Love the sense of humor, QP. I am sure you love your Bimmer but you can take the comments in stride. Wish more could. My Audi A6 twin turbo was FABULOUS to drive but it also was not a stranger to the Audi service bays.

Ha!

And to be honest, my 530i isn't exactly an Ultimate Driving Machine either. An M car may be.

Alas, I see no reason to get rid of it and I'm certainly not itching to deplete my bank account for a quickly depreciating asset that's going to sit in the garage most of the time because I don't really drive much. And if I want some fun, I just use my bike.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3143973 - 10/03/13 02:44 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: pscholte
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It's an Ultimate Driving Machine. They never claimed it to be an Ultimate Reliability Machine. LOL


Love the sense of humor, QP. I am sure you love your Bimmer but you can take the comments in stride. Wish more could. My Audi A6 twin turbo was FABULOUS to drive but it also was not a stranger to the Audi service bays.

Ha!

And to be honest, my 530i isn't exactly an Ultimate Driving Machine either. An M car may be.

Alas, I see no reason to get rid of it and I'm certainly not itching to deplete my bank account for a quickly depreciating asset that's going to sit in the garage most of the time because I don't really drive much. And if I want some fun, I just use my bike.




Understand. With the prices of some boutique oils and a large oil sump that rapid depreciation just might eventually make the oil the most expensive part of the car! :-)
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144004 - 10/03/13 03:07 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Maybe that's a typo on API SJ?



The older "Castrol TWS" was API SJ. The new "Castrol Edge Professional TWS" is API SN.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3144006 - 10/03/13 03:08 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9712
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
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94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3144007 - 10/03/13 03:08 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: pscholte]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: pscholte

Understand. With the prices of some boutique oils and a large oil sump that rapid depreciation just might eventually make the oil the most expensive part of the car! :-)



The change interval is 15,000 miles, so it's not exactly like they want you to shell out $200 every 6 months. Plus the first 3 changes are on BMW's dime.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3144011 - 10/03/13 03:09 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.



I'll have mine on track next weekend and will report back on your oil temp speculation. smile
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3144017 - 10/03/13 03:13 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: dparm
The change interval is 15,000 miles,

BTW, they've dialed it down to 10,000 miles starting with 2014 model year. But yeah, the cost of the oil is really non significant in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure pscholte was just joking about this.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3144038 - 10/03/13 03:29 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?
_________________________
2013 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ 2WD 5.3L
Mobil 1 5W-30
AC Delco PF48

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#3144063 - 10/03/13 04:00 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dparm
The change interval is 15,000 miles,

BTW, they've dialed it down to 10,000 miles starting with 2014 model year. But yeah, the cost of the oil is really non significant in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure pscholte was just joking about this.


pscholte was...you have been exposed to my sense of humor longer than the others...be sure to let me know if it has had any deleterious effects on you. :-)

PS. I told Caterham I thought I had been hacked by the Elves as their way of getting back at me for straying away from Castrol. Now I am sure of it. Sometimes when I try to select Forum List it takes me to the Castrol Zone. Downright scary stuff.


Edited by pscholte (10/03/13 04:04 PM)
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144078 - 10/03/13 04:15 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: stchman
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?


They probably have a "strategic partnership."
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144094 - 10/03/13 04:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
BTW, they've dialed it down to 10,000 miles starting with 2014 model year.

Probably because the engine lineup is completely different as of MY2014.

...I'd have ended that with a smiley, but in this case "different" involves the death of all naturally aspirated engines. frown
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3144095 - 10/03/13 04:38 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: stchman
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?

Did you read my big post earlier in the thread?

Castrol and BMW collaborate. Castrol designs oils specifically for BMW, and BMW designs its engines with those oils.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3144103 - 10/03/13 04:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1001
Loc: Chicago / IN
Someone can ask BMW why they couldn't get it done with a 5W-40 or 0W-40 when Porsche and Ferrari do with their high-revving engines. But CATERHAM is wrong to go around telling people to use a viscosity that's substantially lower than what the engine manufacturer has specified. In addition to temperature, speed, load, composite surface roughness matter as well. You don't have all of that, BMW does. As oil is an engine component, everything else is designed with it as the specification. Believe it or not, there's more to tribology than viscosity index = good and zddp = good. Stick to what they recommend, certainly don't go two grades lower.

The more I've read on this subject, the more I've come to respect engine manufacturerss oil specifications for their respective engines. They do screw up now and again, but they're still the ones that produced the engine and have far more data and expertise than anyone here. It's fine being conservative, eg. shortening oci's if you're not comfortable, but I certainly wouldn't be aggressive in going below what they call for in important areas like viscosity.

Maybe it's a typo, but interestingly on the website BMW doesn't specify the standard oil for the new M cars, but the low-SAPS diesel Castrol Edge Professional OE.
_________________________
04 Honda Accord Coupe V6 6MT | PU 5W-20

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#3144109 - 10/03/13 04:58 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bdcardinal Offline


Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 6678
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
Originally Posted By: stchman
And a ZR1 won't be driven hard?


I would say about 95% of them are owned by old people that just putz them around town and bought a ZR1 because it was the most expensive Vette the dealer had.
_________________________
2014 Ford Mustang GT Track Pack
1995 Ford Mustang GT

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#3144132 - 10/03/13 05:16 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: pscholte]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pscholte
be sure to let me know if it has had any deleterious effects on you. :-)

Besides an occasional beverage spill on the monitor or keyboard, I'm doing just fine, thank you. smile
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3144153 - 10/03/13 05:48 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
ammolab Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 549
Loc: Ruidoso, NM USA
Originally Posted By: stchman
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?


So now 5W-30 is OK now in my S54 engine? It will save my new set of Rod Bearings?? TWS didn't keep my first set from failing! frown


Edited by ammolab (10/03/13 05:48 PM)
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#3144174 - 10/03/13 06:00 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: ammolab]
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: stchman
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?


So now 5W-30 is OK now in my S54 engine? It will save my new set of Rod Bearings?? TWS didn't keep my first set from failing! frown


I neither agree or disagree with their recommendations. I am simply passing information.
_________________________
2013 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ 2WD 5.3L
Mobil 1 5W-30
AC Delco PF48

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#3144176 - 10/03/13 06:01 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: vinu_neuro]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9712
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Someone can ask BMW why they couldn't get it done with a 5W-40 or 0W-40 when Porsche and Ferrari do with their high-revving engines. But CATERHAM is wrong to go around telling people to use a viscosity that's substantially lower than what the engine manufacturer has specified. In addition to temperature, speed, load, composite surface roughness matter as well. You don't have all of that, BMW does. As oil is an engine component, everything else is designed with it as the specification. Believe it or not, there's more to tribology than viscosity index = good and zddp = good. Stick to what they recommend, certainly don't go two grades lower.

The more I've read on this subject, the more I've come to respect engine manufacturerss oil specifications for their respective engines. They do screw up now and again, but they're still the ones that produced the engine and have far more data and expertise than anyone here. It's fine being conservative, eg. shortening oci's if you're not comfortable, but I certainly wouldn't be aggressive in going below what they call for in important areas like viscosity.

And I think you should stick to what the manufacturer recommends.
My recommendations are always qualified and directed to those who first raise the question and are interested in thinking for themselves and less in dogma.
The oil grade one uses ultimately is not important, it's operational viscosity that matters. It is much more precise and safer to heed the test oil pressure spec's of a manufacturer in conjunction with oil temp's in determining how much of a viscosity safety margin one has for the way they operate their car. Not everyone is into that but some are.
Even with just an oil temp' gauge certain very safe assumptions can still be made. In the case of the M3 one is, if you're never seeing oil temp's above 212F then yes a premium 0W/5W-40 will more than meet the engines viscosity requirements.
And as far as being two grades lighter than spec', remember the FF is 3 grades lighter.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3144207 - 10/03/13 06:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
The LL-01 list is quite small compared to the VW 502/505 list, especially for the US. Basically just M1 0w40, GC, SynPower, and PU Euro.

I will be using M1 0w40 when my M3 is due for an oil change in about 1000 miles (I'm doing 7500 mile changes).
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3144219 - 10/03/13 06:52 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1001
Loc: Chicago / IN
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Someone can ask BMW why they couldn't get it done with a 5W-40 or 0W-40 when Porsche and Ferrari do with their high-revving engines. But CATERHAM is wrong to go around telling people to use a viscosity that's substantially lower than what the engine manufacturer has specified. In addition to temperature, speed, load, composite surface roughness matter as well. You don't have all of that, BMW does. As oil is an engine component, everything else is designed with it as the specification. Believe it or not, there's more to tribology than viscosity index = good and zddp = good. Stick to what they recommend, certainly don't go two grades lower.

The more I've read on this subject, the more I've come to respect engine manufacturerss oil specifications for their respective engines. They do screw up now and again, but they're still the ones that produced the engine and have far more data and expertise than anyone here. It's fine being conservative, eg. shortening oci's if you're not comfortable, but I certainly wouldn't be aggressive in going below what they call for in important areas like viscosity.

And I think you should stick to what the manufacturer recommends.
My recommendations are always qualified and directed to those who first raise the question and are interested in thinking for themselves and less in dogma.
The oil grade one uses ultimately is not important, it's operational viscosity that matters. It is much more precise and safer to heed the test oil pressure spec's of a manufacturer in conjunction with oil temp's in determining how much of a viscosity safety margin one has for the way they operate their car. Not everyone is into that but some are.
Even with just an oil temp' gauge certain very safe assumptions can still be made. In the case of the M3 one is, if you're never seeing oil temp's above 212F then yes a premium 0W/5W-40 will more than meet the engines viscosity requirements.
And as far as being two grades lighter than spec', remember the FF is 3 grades lighter.




Doh, all those equations solved in models in papers published by OEM engine and lubricant manufacturers.got pwned by BITOG's CATERHAM. They forgot the oil pressure gauge!
_________________________
04 Honda Accord Coupe V6 6MT | PU 5W-20

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#3144268 - 10/03/13 07:45 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: dparm
The LL-01 list is quite small compared to the VW 502/505 list, especially for the US. Basically just M1 0w40, GC, SynPower, and PU Euro.

There is also Castrol 0w-40 and Total Quartz 9000 5w-40. I think Lubro Moly sold at NAPA also has something that meets LL-01 in their lineup.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3144278 - 10/03/13 07:57 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
BTW, they've dialed it down to 10,000 miles starting with 2014 model year.

Probably because the engine lineup is completely different as of MY2014.

...I'd have ended that with a smiley, but in this case "different" involves the death of all naturally aspirated engines. frown


Doesn't apply to everyone but if you lived at 6-7000 feet and drove at even higher altitudes, you would wish, as I do, that every model of every marque had a turbo or supercharger. You lose SO MUCH HP.
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144294 - 10/03/13 08:10 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: ammolab]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: stchman
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?


So now 5W-30 is OK now in my S54 engine? It will save my new set of Rod Bearings?? TWS didn't keep my first set from failing! frown


Rod Bearings is great in concert...that gravelly voice of his is a winner!
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144300 - 10/03/13 08:16 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Sometimes reading these threads I feel like I should either put on a referee's jersey or give some participants a binky


Edited by pscholte (10/03/13 08:18 PM)
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144316 - 10/03/13 08:33 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: pscholte]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pscholte
Rod Bearings is great in concert...that gravelly voice of his is a winner!

This one time, he was the opening act for Motörhead... or was it Midnight Oil? I forget...
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3144365 - 10/03/13 09:23 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
I think your first choice is correct. that was after Roller Cambindo quit touring with him
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144639 - 10/04/13 08:23 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1326
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Just an fyi...The new M cars which all have turbos do NOT take the 10w60 but the regular LL01 oils like the rest of the BMW fleet.
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

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#3144668 - 10/04/13 08:50 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1326
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Interestingly enough, I'm looking at the US owner's manual of a 2013 M5, and read the following:

Quote:
Viscosity grades for engine oils
When selecting an engine oil, ensure that the engine oil belongs to the viscosity grade SAE 0W-30 or SAE 0W-40 or malfunctions or engine damage may occur.
Alternatively, also engine oils with viscosity grades SAE 5W-30 or SAE 5W-40 may be used
The engine oil quality is critical for the life of the
engine.
Some types of oils in some cases are not available in all countries.

Approved oil types
Specification
ACEA A3/B4
API SK/CF or superior grade specification


Strangely no mention of LL-01 spec. And API SK? What is that? There never was such a thing. smile



You'll find LL01 on the website. Interestingly they added Castrol Edge OE 5w30 as suitable for the S54, S62, S65, S85.


Please ignore this.post



Edited by BMWTurboDzl (10/04/13 08:57 AM)
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

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#3145019 - 10/04/13 02:10 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
79sunrunner Offline


Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 392
Loc: Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.



I'll have mine on track next weekend and will report back on your oil temp speculation. smile


Say what track do you go to? Autobahn Country Club is ALOT of fun in Joliet
_________________________
2013 Fiat 500T PU 5/40
'79 MG Midget SunRunner 20/50 GTX (winner of TopGears Rate Your Ride)
And many more leaky British cars!

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#3145412 - 10/04/13 08:35 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Leonardo629 Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 227
Loc: So. Cal
It's common knowledge that all the new turbo M cars are spec'ed regular 5W30 Castrol oil, Mobil 1 0W40 too!

Lots of M3 V8 engines have failed despite 10W60 being used as the only fill, and looks like insufficient crankshaft bearing clearance has to do with it, it's one of the hottest topics at m3post.com.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838


Edited by Leonardo629 (10/04/13 08:37 PM)
_________________________
2013 Accord EX-L --> TGMO 0W20
2013 E92 M3 --> M1 0W40

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#3145957 - 10/05/13 02:54 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Leonardo629]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
It's common knowledge that all the new turbo M cars are spec'ed regular 5W30 Castrol oil, Mobil 1 0W40 too!

Lots of M3 V8 engines have failed despite 10W60 being used as the only fill, and looks like insufficient crankshaft bearing clearance has to do with it, it's one of the hottest topics at m3post.com.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838



I wouldn't say lots...it seems to only hit the very early ones.

Anyways, I have a BMW EVP warranty out to early 2017/100k, so if it happens, it happens.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3147906 - 10/07/13 01:46 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as well.

More recently, BMW's M cars stopped coming with high-revving naturally aspirated engines, and gradually switched to lower-revving turbocharged engines. With that change, they switched back to the 5w-30.

As for why any BMW engines ever used the 10w-60, oil temperatures are probably the main reason. BMW M cars are designed to run on race tracks all day, even in the hottest temperatures. In those conditions, oil temps on the high-RPM engines can exceed 300º F. It's crucially important to have an oil that doesn't thin out too much at those temps. Also, as I said earlier, the specific 10w-60 that BMW uses is a custom-made product, so it has (supposedly) the perfect blend of base stocks and additives for the cars that spec it.



Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then.


One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.


Edited by KenO (10/07/13 01:54 PM)
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

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#3147939 - 10/07/13 02:05 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
TWS 10w-60 did emerge from a long line of development starting in the '70s IIRC. This is according to BITOG's own Doug Hillary. It wasn't introduced for road cars until the E46 M3.

Point taken on the long-standing partnership between Castrol and BMW. My understanding is that the partnership got closer around the year 2000.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3147943 - 10/07/13 02:12 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
KenO - you said this:

"Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then."

I have some knowledge of this. The forerunner of the original ester based 10W-60 was in fact Castrol Formula R synthetic 15W-50 (API SE). Red in colour and with the distinctive "Castrol R ester" exhaust aroma it was available outside of Germany in the 1970s. I field tested R in a wide variety of petrol/diesel engines

The original German development team for Formula R are now dead. According to my Castrol (BMW engine development team) contacts at the 24hr at the Nurburgring in 2010 I may be the last man standing with such product knowledge - I must be old!!!!



Edited by Doug Hillary (10/07/13 02:13 PM)
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3147964 - 10/07/13 02:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
KenO - you said this:

"Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then."

I have some knowledge of this. The forerunner of the original ester based 10W-60 was in fact Castrol Formula R synthetic 15W-50 (API SE). Red in colour and with the distinctive "Castrol R ester" exhaust aroma it was available outside of Germany in the 1970s. I field tested R in a wide variety of petrol/diesel engines

The original German development team for Formula R are now dead. According to my Castrol (BMW engine development team) contacts at the 24hr at the Nurburgring in 2010 I may be the last man standing with such product knowledge - I must be old!!!!




There he is! Thanks for the insight! Was BMW partnered with Castrol on the 10W-60 program in earlier years as well?? It was used in some of the BMW Group B, M1, and other racecars, wasn't it??
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

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#3148080 - 10/07/13 04:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
KenO - The BMW Castrol collaboration probably commenced seriously during the early-mid 1990s.

As I understand it the surviving 10W-60 formulation was commandeered by BMW. From 1999 just before BP took over Castrol the deal with BMW was in operation and was later confirmed by the new BP-Castrol organisation

Of course BMW also use third party organisations to explore various engine technologies - Castrol is involved with these developments

Castrol was a very strong supplier to German Industry in the 1930s and this was the period when many synthetic lubricant formulations were tried and tested - by Castrol and Shell in Germany and some other German lubricant Manufacturers

Most German vehicle Manufacturers have more that on source of FF lubricant supply, most have more than one Technical collaboration arrangement

Today BP-Castrol have alliances with a number of Vehicle/Engine Manufacturers

Perhaps the most enlightening (from my perspective) was the R20 synthetic race lubricant developed (with Mercedes-Benz) for use the Mercedes-Benz race cars during the 1950s
I have a long period of familiarity with these vehicles

My brother raced motorbikes so I was brought up with the smell of Castrol R from about 10 years of age
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3148113 - 10/07/13 04:56 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9712
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Doug you're not getting old, you've just got a great memory!

If that original Castrol Formula R Synthetic 15W-50 (a castor oil/syn blend I presume) was still available I'd be using it in my Europa for the aroma alone!

I don't know of any formulator that is using veg' oils to make PCMOs that is using castor oil. I do know that there are some two stroke oils that are still castor and castor/syn based.
My memory of using Castrol R was that it wasn't miscible with mineral oil and even didn't mix well in gasoline; would settle out if not regularly agitated.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3148205 - 10/07/13 06:14 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
ammolab Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 549
Loc: Ruidoso, NM USA
Originally Posted By: KenO
[quote=d00df00d]Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.


My S54 has a redline short of 8000RPM and warm up procedures were always followed. Using TWS and had to change Rod bearings at 60,000 miles of normal ( not track day ) driving.

Think I would have done better on 5W-30? Should I use it now?
_________________________
2009 Honda CR-V
2002 BMW M Coupe
2011 BMW R1200R
1986 BMW K75C
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L

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#3148228 - 10/07/13 06:28 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: ammolab]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
"Normal driving" is one of the worst things you can do with an S54, no matter how gently you warm it up.

If you're not going to drive it as it was meant to be driven, switching to a BMW-approved 5w-30 might help.

Again, make sure it meets the right specs per BMW. Don't just pick up any synthetic 5w-30 and expect it to work -- most won't.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3148231 - 10/07/13 06:33 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: KenO
[quote=d00df00d]Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.


My S54 has a redline short of 8000RPM and warm up procedures were always followed. Using TWS and had to change Rod bearings at 60,000 miles of normal ( not track day ) driving.

Think I would have done better on 5W-30? Should I use it now?



What year S54 did you have by chance? Early cars were going to fail no matter what. I've heard a few claims, from fuel dilution (all S54 cars that got bearing recalls had their PCM's reprogrammed at the same time), to wrong oil, to improper bearing specs or manufacturer processes for the bearings themselves.


Originally Posted By: d00df00d
"Normal driving" is one of the worst things you can do with an S54, no matter how gently you warm it up.

If you're not going to drive it as it was meant to be driven, switching to a BMW-approved 5w-30 might help.

Again, make sure it meets the right specs per BMW. Don't just pick up any synthetic 5w-30 and expect it to work -- most won't.



This. Get them up to temp (oil temp) and beat the [censored] out of them. It's what they were built for. It probably WOULD run better if you tracked it.


Edited by KenO (10/07/13 06:34 PM)
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

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#3148259 - 10/07/13 06:48 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
CATERHAM - The Castrol Formula R 15W-50 containers had the following "qualifier";

"Castrol Formula R Synthetic will mix with conventional oils, but the enthusiast wanting an advanced lubricant would not be interested in contaminating this superior lubricant"

In Japan about 1982 I spoke with the Kubota Engine development Engineering team about using Formula R 15W-50 in their small high speed 3cyl diesel engines. They unanimously advised against it. I carried on my tests in OZ anyway and had these great little engines doing 3000hr OCIs on Formula R. These engines were fitted to truck refrigeration units and were trouble free during their life

The original R30 and R40 were non-miscible, you are correct

Mercedes-Benz sure struck new ground with R20 in the 1950s!!!!

Last year at Goodwood I asked the factory "Engineers"(Benz had three or four Silver Arrows cars there) what they were using - they didn't know - "That was a Museum decision" - was the answer
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3148527 - 10/07/13 08:46 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
marvinlee Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 23
Loc: Benton County, Oregon
Thicker oil can also help avoid consuming additional scarce space under the hood for heat exchangers to keep the oil cool. My Subaru manual specifies 5-30 but also advises thicker oil in extreme conditions.

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#3148533 - 10/07/13 08:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
marvinlee Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 23
Loc: Benton County, Oregon
Your comments remind me that engine manufacturers are not always deeply informed on lubricants. Typically, they know what works well and what is commercially available. But testing engines on a wide variety of lubricants is costly and probably unnecessary for most engine uses. In actual usage history, most engines will last over several new cycles of oil specifications.

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#3148593 - 10/07/13 09:18 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: marvinlee]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: marvinlee
Thicker oil can also help avoid consuming additional scarce space under the hood for heat exchangers to keep the oil cool.

All of the M cars that spec 10w-60 also have oil coolers. smile
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3148761 - 10/08/13 04:24 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
miro Offline


Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 72
Loc: the Netherlands
It is simple arthritics. :-)
USA Old man riding with 60mph 5w30.
Europe/Germany BMW riding with 120mph 10w60 = 2x 5w30

Now serious.
As already mentioned 10w60 especially castrol is used in race conditions where oil temperature is higher than that can be experienced by average European driver. I wouldn't even try to compare with average US driver.
Castrol 10w60 TDS gives viscosity not only at T=40 and 100 degree Celsius. but also at 150/160
In such race conditions 10w60 is even tiner that 5w30 used by average US driver.
BTW BMW is not the only one. Some Alpha Romeo are using too.

So most race cars are using this thin 10w60 oils.
I read in this forum that experts here advice to use 0w20 in Ferrari. I think that they are right. In such mild condition/low oil temperature/ the average ferrari US driver will take the advantages of 0w20. However racer will go with recomended 15w50 or even 10w60





Edited by miro (10/08/13 04:38 AM)

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#3148767 - 10/08/13 04:54 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: miro]
miro Offline


Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 72
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: miro
It is simple arthritics. :-)
USA Old man riding with 60mph 5w30.
Europe/Germany BMW riding with 120mph 10w60 = 2x 5w30

Now serious.
As already mentioned 10w60 especially castrol is used in race conditions where oil temperature is higher than that can be experienced by average European driver. I wouldn't even try to compare with average US driver.
Castrol 10w60 TDS gives viscosity not only at T=40 and 100 degree Celsius. but also at 150/160
In such race conditions 10w60 is even tiner that 5w30 used by average US driver.
BTW BMW is not the only one. Some Alpha Romeo are using too.

So most race cars are using this thin 10w60 oils.
I read in this forum that experts here advice to use 0w20 in Ferrari. I think that they are right. In such mild condition/low oil temperature/ the average ferrari US driver will take the advantages of 0w20. However racer will go with recomended 15w50 or even 10w60






For more info look at Mr. Hass articles - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/


Edited by miro (10/08/13 04:55 AM)

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#3148976 - 10/08/13 09:50 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Audi also requires this exact same 10w60 for the R8 GT, which is a very high-strung V10. However, this motor (found in the Gallardo) is normally allowed to run Shell Helix/Pennzoil Ultra 5w40.
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#3149335 - 10/08/13 02:42 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
330indy Offline


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Indianapolis
Redline 5w-40 or 10w60 for e92 M3, no track use
Car will be under warranty until July 2017 so I will probably stick to 10w60 for a while

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#3149339 - 10/08/13 02:46 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: 330indy]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26705
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: 330indy
Redline 5w-40 or 10w60 for e92 M3, no track use
Car will be under warranty until July 2017 so I will probably stick to 10w60 for a while


Redline 10w-60 is WAY heavier than BMW/Castrol 10w-60 BTW.
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#3149409 - 10/08/13 04:12 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: 330indy]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: 330indy
Redline 5w-40 or 10w60 for e92 M3, no track use
Car will be under warranty until July 2017 so I will probably stick to 10w60 for a while

In addition to what OVERK1LL said, Red Line 10w-60 carries exactly zero third-party certifications and likely wouldn't impress BMW in the event of a warranty claim. Just FYI.
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2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
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#3149415 - 10/08/13 04:18 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
As an aside, I think what we're seeing in this thread explains two things quite well:

1. Why there is no future for engines like those in the E46 M3 and E92 M3, and
2. Why it's essentially impossible to find a reliable example of either of those cars on the used market.

Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks. frown
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#3149446 - 10/08/13 05:02 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks. frown



Huh?
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#3149455 - 10/08/13 05:11 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
doodfood - You are correct:

"Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks"

I've owned 18 German cars (2 BMWs) - 4 were purchased new. I've also had the unlimited use of 5 new Benzes as Company supplied vehicles! The cars were variously owned in New Zealand, Australia, Denmark and England

I had two roadside failures that warranted tilt-tray uplift - one a Porsche Boxster (separator) and the other a new Benz 280E Wagon (FI)!

Of the 13 used cars purchased about 8 required substantial works to bring them up to my standard. The others had been treated basically as they should have been. The best of all were those serviced by private workshops that has car enthusiast Owners!

German auto design philosophy dictates complex vehicle technologies (both car and heavy trucks too). That said, if treated and serviced properly, with Factory updates if needed, they have durability levels beyond most others. Sadly most Owners can't afford the cost involved!!

Sheer joy of driving is their high point - Oh how I miss my Porsche 928 S4.........!!
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#3149564 - 10/08/13 07:00 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
ammolab Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 549
Loc: Ruidoso, NM USA
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
As an aside, I think what we're seeing in this thread explains two things quite well:

1. Why there is no future for engines like those in the E46 M3 and E92 M3, and
2. Why it's essentially impossible to find a reliable example of either of those cars on the used market.

Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks. frown


"Nobody?"...there are PLENTY of forums and members thereof that attempt to understand how to care for them and surely value their cars.

I replaced my Rod bearings at 60,000 miles of normal driving and am sure I would not have gone 60,000 miles of track time on that set of OEM bearings. Many S54 engines failed early with track time, enthusiastic driving is not a mechanical cure!
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#3149789 - 10/08/13 10:24 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Most people think of an M3 as a faster 3-Series. People buy it not because they drive fast enough to need it, but because they want the feeling that they could drive it fast if they wanted to. There's the first problem. The E46 and E9x M3s are not just cars that can go fast. They are cars that will punish you if you don't go fast.

Moreover, "fast" for these cars is WAY beyond what most people understand. Most people think an occasional trip to 6,000 RPM is "beating on the car." An E46 or E9x M3 is barely awake under that kind of usage. In fact, it's actually worse to drive than a normal 3-Series because it's less comfortable and not very torquey. If you want to get anything out of owning an S54 or S65 -- not to mention if you want it to last -- you have to be willing to put the gas pedal straight to the floor and use 100% of the 8k+ RPM tach every time you drive. Yes, that kind of driving obviously involves endless track time and/or felony speeding. Believe me, I sympathize on that point. Unfortunately, the car doesn't.

That's what I mean by my comment about what people value. Almost nobody makes any use of the attributes that make the M3 what it is.


On maintenance: First of all, no one should ever purchase a car with an 8k+ RPM engine and expect a painless ownership experience. That should simply go without saying. This doesn't excuse the rod bearing issues on early S54s, but that's not much of an issue after 2002 -- which, to be completely honest, should blow anyone's mind.

One thing that people get wrong is that these cars have to be maintained proactively. You can't just wait for something to break; you have to know the common failure points and address them well in advance. Another problem is that warm-up, and proper driving when warm, are critical (most people do one or both of thse incorrectly). BMW's oil specs confuse most people (e.g. it's EXTREMLY common to think that any old synthetic 5w-30 or 10w-60 will do). It's not as bad as, say, owning a Ferrari, but it's still more work than most cars. I'm sure there are a lot of people that try their level best, but most simply treat it like a normal upscale car and/or simply have no idea about certain things.


As much as I HATE that BMW is moving to turbocharged engines, I do have to admit that that change makes sense. The new M engines are so much less exotic than the old ones, and they deliver performance in a way that is more accessible to more people.
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#3149801 - 10/08/13 10:41 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: ammolab]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
A further point about people making good faith efforts to learn how to care for their cars:

The problem there isn't that they're not trying. It's that bad and incomplete information still flies around like mosquitos at a nudist colony in the Everglades, and it can be really hard to discern who does and doesn't know what they're talking about.
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#3149845 - 10/09/13 12:20 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
I'll agree with pretty much everything you've said. Unfortunately, as we've both stated before, early S54's had rod bearing failure. It sucks, it was a factory problem, and it was recalled. Later engines didn't have this issue. Regardless of the rod bearing issues - BMW's need to be beaten on. Period. M cars especially so. They're maintenance intensive. But, for the long-haul owner - as Doug Hillary pointed out, can and will outlast most things on the road - even when driven to the extremes, which is what they were built for. Built to be able to be taken to the track, run HPDE's, win races, and drive to work on Monday if necessary.


If you don't plan to track it - should probably not be buying an M car. FWIW, The E36/Z3 was NOT a real M car. The E36 M3 was the exact same chassis as any other 3 series, no differences whatsoever. Minor bolt-on upgrades (larger rear wheel bearing & trailing arm, bigger brake), and a bored/stroked version of the same low-revving engine, for the US market at least. We got [censored] HARD on that one. At least Europe still got the good motor in the E36. The Z3 was an afterthought. I have a couple friends that have done internships in Munich while in school for engineering and have spoken to people who were on the Z3 design team. They were never pleased with how that car turned out and left the factory. The Z4 is head and shoulders a worlds better car, in every single way.


Edited by KenO (10/09/13 12:21 AM)
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#3149853 - 10/09/13 12:45 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
KenO - Correct about the Z3. I had a near new 2.8 - lovely engine and gearbox - a very average chassis and handling! But typically it was quite a good high speed cruiser

The Boxster left it for dead all over however!
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Doug

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#3149943 - 10/09/13 07:34 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
I don't find the S65 to be lacking in torque at all. People who say that are the ones who haven't driven them for more than a few minutes.

If anything, I think the new M3/4, M5, and M6 are becoming less special. Their motors are more pedestrian and docile than before, which makes them more appealing to a wider audience. The older ones, as you said, were quite high strung and a bit crazy for a street car. The E46 and E9x M3s (along with the E60 M5 and E61 M6) really only appealed to people serious about performance.
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#3149949 - 10/09/13 07:39 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1326
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: KenO
I'll agree with pretty much everything you've said. Unfortunately, as we've both stated before, early S54's had rod bearing failure. It sucks, it was a factory problem, and it was recalled. Later engines didn't have this issue. Regardless of the rod bearing issues - BMW's need to be beaten on. Period. M cars especially so. They're maintenance intensive. But, for the long-haul owner - as Doug Hillary pointed out, can and will outlast most things on the road - even when driven to the extremes, which is what they were built for. Built to be able to be taken to the track, run HPDE's, win races, and drive to work on Monday if necessary.


+1. I keep telling new BMW diesel owners (335d) that these cars are made to run. Trying to hyper-mile in city only traffic is asking for trouble. In fact it's probably why BMW has a tough sled in the US. The avg US owner lives in the city and the cars just idle along in rush hour for most of their lives.
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#3150105 - 10/09/13 11:06 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
Geoff Offline


Registered: 05/16/04
Posts: 547
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.


^ Sorry but I don't think that is correct. My oil temps can jump to 220-240F with spirited driving. Heck, our rental Jeep Cherokee regularly hit oil temps of 245F (it had a digital readout) just driving conservatively through the mountains in CO.
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#3150248 - 10/09/13 01:28 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Geoff]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9712
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Geoff
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.


^ Sorry but I don't think that is correct. My oil temps can jump to 220-240F with spirited driving. Heck, our rental Jeep Cherokee regularly hit oil temps of 245F (it had a digital readout) just driving conservatively through the mountains in CO.

Are you talking about an M series BMW? No.
AFAIK dparm has yet to see oil temp's approaching 212F yet in his M3 which is why he mentioned he will report back after his up coming track day.
OVERKILL has never see oil temp's over 212F in his M5 and that including some hot laps at Mosport.
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#3150259 - 10/09/13 01:42 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Are you talking about an M series BMW? No.
AFAIK dparm has yet to see oil temp's approaching 212F yet in his M3 which is why he mentioned he will report back after his up coming track day.
OVERKILL has never see oil temp's over 212F in his M5 and that including some hot laps at Mosport.


You should submit those results to the BMW AG and GM engineering departments and tell them to get on the ball wink
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#3150273 - 10/09/13 01:58 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Even under repeated & prolonged WOT (on the street), I have not seen the oil temp needle swing past the 210 F region in my car. I will report back after my track time this coming Friday.

FWIW, it's a BMW-sanctioned track event at Autobahn Country Club. Track time, autocross time, and the chance to drive the new M5 & M6.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3150807 - 10/09/13 11:20 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Nice to see they've address oil temp issues, finally. I know E36's (modded ones, of course) can see oil temps in the 230-240*F range. Still not in the realm of oil cooler territory, but hot nonetheless, and certainly requiring good oil. I think thats part of the reason so many E36's get lifter tick, combination of oil that can't handle the heat, and the poor oilpan baffling they had.
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#3151551 - 10/10/13 05:41 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9712
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: dparm
Even under repeated & prolonged WOT (on the street), I have not seen the oil temp needle swing past the 210 F region in my car. I will report back after my track time this coming Friday.

FWIW, it's a BMW-sanctioned track event at Autobahn Country Club. Track time, autocross time, and the chance to drive the new M5 & M6.

Cool.

I was invited a couple of weeks ago by Jaguar/Land Rover to try out the various new F-Type models on the big track at Mosport.
Those corporate events are fun.
Impressive cars and while I'm not partial to automatic gearboxes especially in a two seater sportscar (actually it's deal breaker for me) the ZF 8-speed behaved just like a DCT even including blipping the throttle on downshifts in manual mode.
Both the 340 hp and 380 hp SC V6s and 495 hp SC V8 sounded great.
The V8 isn't noticeably faster than the S model V6 until your doing well over 100 mph. For street use I'd stick with the V6 and save the $25,000 premium.
_________________________
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#3151665 - 10/10/13 07:19 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Yep, the sweet spot with the F-Type seems to be the V6 S. That ZF gearbox is in a ton of cars and is a true benchmark automatic trans. Great selection for that car as it is, after all, a grand tourer. Love the way that car looks, too.
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#3152054 - 10/11/13 07:53 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
CSBM5 Offline


Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 2
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: dparm
I don't find the S65 to be lacking in torque at all. People who say that are the ones who haven't driven them for more than a few minutes.

If anything, I think the new M3/4, M5, and M6 are becoming less special. Their motors are more pedestrian and docile than before, which makes them more appealing to a wider audience. The older ones, as you said, were quite high strung and a bit crazy for a street car. The E46 and E9x M3s (along with the E60 M5 and E61 M6) really only appealed to people serious about performance.


I agree pretty much. It's all relative though. When I back to back drive my S62 powered M5 versus the S65 M3, that gut hit punch at low-mid rpms is the first thing you notice in the M5. The second thing you notice is how quickly you have to pay attention to the rev limit in the M5 (after driving the M3) since that wicked high end S65 rush from 6500-8300 rpms isn't there. smile

Re comments on people not knowing or able to maintain these cars properly... I've been driving, tracking and racing BMWs since 1974, so I guess that puts me in a different, and likely an odd and sick, group of owners. If you saw the folders of records I have for the M5 (owned for 11 years now), S4 (187k miles now, original turbos still, running great, using 0W40 Mobil 1 forever), 850R (170k miles, owned since new almost 18 years ago)...I don't even want to look at size of them.

Funny thing. The 2011.5 E90 M3 will be three years old next month, and is at 23k miles now. It has never had any issue of any sort. Zero warranty claims since new. Just regular 6k mile interval TWS changes. Fortunately its latest oil report was stellar (given the fear mongering going on over on m3post). Similarly, my E90 330i we ordered and bought new in Feb 06 now has 119k miles, and it has been the most reliable I've owned in almost 40 years of driving. Since the warranty ran out at 50k miles, I've replaced a door lock actuator, oil filter housing gasket and also changed the valve cover gasket when replacing the spark plugs near 100k miles. This little sucker just keeps running fine with regular maintenance (0W40 M1 since end of warranty BMW 5W30 changes every 7-8k miles). All of my cars are 6MT except the Volvo which only came with a slushbox in the US...


Edited by CSBM5 (10/11/13 07:53 AM)
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#3152153 - 10/11/13 09:43 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CSBM5]
MCompact Offline


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1823
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By: CSBM5

Re comments on people not knowing or able to maintain these cars properly... I've been driving, tracking and racing BMWs since 1974, so I guess that puts me in a different, and likely an odd and sick, group of owners. If you saw the folders of records I have for the M5 (owned for 11 years now), S4 (187k miles now, original turbos still, running great, using 0W40 Mobil 1 forever), 850R (170k miles, owned since new almost 18 years ago)...I don't even want to look at size of them.

Funny thing. The 2011.5 E90 M3 will be three years old next month, and is at 23k miles now. It has never had any issue of any sort. Zero warranty claims since new. Just regular 6k mile interval TWS changes. Fortunately its latest oil report was stellar (given the fear mongering going on over on m3post). Similarly, my E90 330i we ordered and bought new in Feb 06 now has 119k miles, and it has been the most reliable I've owned in almost 40 years of driving. Since the warranty ran out at 50k miles, I've replaced a door lock actuator, oil filter housing gasket and also changed the valve cover gasket when replacing the spark plugs near 100k miles. This little sucker just keeps running fine with regular maintenance (0W40 M1 since end of warranty BMW 5W30 changes every 7-8k miles). All of my cars are 6MT except the Volvo which only came with a slushbox in the US...


Your experience pretty much mirrors mine. With the exception of a flakey transfer case on the X3 at over 130k miles, my last three BMWs have had no serious issues- and few minor problems(unlike my MS3, which required a couple of thousand dollars worth of warranty repairs prior to 60k miles).
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#3152155 - 10/11/13 09:45 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CSBM5]
330indy Offline


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Indianapolis
CSBM5:
Thanks for the encouraging post!
I have a 2002 330i 5 speed (M54B30) and '13 M3 (S65), and they run so well.
I run conservative OCIs (<5k) but sleep well at night when reading the end of the world rod bearing posts at M3post.
There are some huge egos and sadly contentious experts over there and I don't like going there anymore because it is so confounding.
I like Redline 5w40 for the M54, and will stay with TWS while the M is in warranty, but will like I said shorten those OCIs due to time rather than mileage.
I like BITOG.
Lots of helpful knowledgeable people here....


Edited by 330indy (10/11/13 09:46 AM)

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#3152420 - 10/11/13 01:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: dparm
Even under repeated & prolonged WOT (on the street), I have not seen the oil temp needle swing past the 210 F region in my car. I will report back after my track time this coming Friday.

FWIW, it's a BMW-sanctioned track event at Autobahn Country Club. Track time, autocross time, and the chance to drive the new M5 & M6.



So even after 20 minutes of lapping on the north course (which has two straightaways of 1000+ ft), my oil temps never got north of 250 F.

Whereas the around-town temp is 210ish, the needle was mostly floating around 230-240, and nudged towards 250 for a brief period.

This was a bone-stock M3 sedan with the latest integration (ECU software) and the OEM Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3437498 - 07/27/14 03:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
As an aside, I think what we're seeing in this thread explains two things quite well:

1. Why there is no future for engines like those in the E46 M3 and E92 M3, and
2. Why it's essentially impossible to find a reliable example of either of those cars on the used market.

Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks. frown

I realize this is an old thread, but your sweeping comments are not accurate. There are many people who appreciate these engines and take very good care of them. If you took the time to visit M3Forum, M3Post or other related forum, you would see that. There are many spirited discussions about oil, rod bearings and vanos (not to mention subframes and SMG) for no other reason than because people care about them. I recognize my E46 M3 is not for everyone, and I wish BMW made some different design decisions, but the car is what it is and I enjoy it for what it is. Until you've driven one of these cars, you won't get it.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3437615 - 07/27/14 05:54 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Most people think of an M3 as a faster 3-Series. People buy it not because they drive fast enough to need it, but because they want the feeling that they could drive it fast if they wanted to. There's the first problem. The E46 and E9x M3s are not just cars that can go fast. They are cars that will punish you if you don't go fast.

Moreover, "fast" for these cars is WAY beyond what most people understand. Most people think an occasional trip to 6,000 RPM is "beating on the car." An E46 or E9x M3 is barely awake under that kind of usage. In fact, it's actually worse to drive than a normal 3-Series because it's less comfortable and not very torquey. If you want to get anything out of owning an S54 or S65 -- not to mention if you want it to last -- you have to be willing to put the gas pedal straight to the floor and use 100% of the 8k+ RPM tach every time you drive. Yes, that kind of driving obviously involves endless track time and/or felony speeding. Believe me, I sympathize on that point. Unfortunately, the car doesn't.

That's what I mean by my comment about what people value. Almost nobody makes any use of the attributes that make the M3 what it is.


On maintenance: First of all, no one should ever purchase a car with an 8k+ RPM engine and expect a painless ownership experience. That should simply go without saying. This doesn't excuse the rod bearing issues on early S54s, but that's not much of an issue after 2002 -- which, to be completely honest, should blow anyone's mind.

One thing that people get wrong is that these cars have to be maintained proactively. You can't just wait for something to break; you have to know the common failure points and address them well in advance. Another problem is that warm-up, and proper driving when warm, are critical (most people do one or both of thse incorrectly). BMW's oil specs confuse most people (e.g. it's EXTREMLY common to think that any old synthetic 5w-30 or 10w-60 will do). It's not as bad as, say, owning a Ferrari, but it's still more work than most cars. I'm sure there are a lot of people that try their level best, but most simply treat it like a normal upscale car and/or simply have no idea about certain things.


As much as I HATE that BMW is moving to turbocharged engines, I do have to admit that that change makes sense. The new M engines are so much less exotic than the old ones, and they deliver performance in a way that is more accessible to more people.

Honestly, I have no idea where you get this from. Have you ever driven one? The M3 does not "punish" you if you don't drive it hard. An E46 M3 is relatively docile unless / until you wring its neck. I've driven an E92 with DCT and it was basically the same thing. I had an E36 328is before my E46 M3. The E46 M3 is more visceral and "in your face" than the E36 328is was. The M3 is faster, stiffer, quicker, louder, etc. The E36 is soft and cushy by comparison. However, aside from the stiffer ride and more "visceral" driving experience, what I notice about an E46 M3 is the cantankerous M6 shifter / transmission. It's terrible, but the engine has more than enough torque that you don't have to wind it up to get around. It's certainly not as buzzy and gutless down low as an S2000. It's just that you can wind it up and it's perfectly happy when you do. I often shift mine at 4-5k rpms just driving normally. As much as I enjoy redlining it, I rarely do because to do that safely requires a lot of room and I don't want the speeding tickets. I do agree that they need to be maintained (e.g., frequent oil changes, as well as valve adjustment).
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3437644 - 07/27/14 06:29 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Awesome timing on those accusations of ignorance. I just got back from the household of a friend whose lightweighted all-motor E46 M3 will have to be pried from his cold dead fingers.

The same household also includes an E39 M5, a beautiful all-motor 128i, an E46 330i ZHP, and an E91 328i, as well as a new Boxster and a 930 Carrera. This is the family that sold me my last car, an E36 M3 (which I owned at the time of the post you're responding to). It's basically a small monument to naturally aspirated, chassis-oriented, Bavarian-made sport sedans. In our extended circle of mutual friends, there is at least one more ZHP and more E46 and E9x M3s than I can count, as well as various other naturally aspirated M cars.

So, yeah, I feel like I know a thing or two about what makes BMW M cars great. In a nutshell, it's not about numbers or easy speed; it's about legit race car dynamics in a usable package. The main reason I no longer own a BMW M car is that I don't feel they take that formula far enough.

But you don't know me at all, so I can't blame you for being so dismissive. No worries.

Yes, there are a lot of active M3 enthusiasts online. The Internet can make just about any interest group look big. The fact remains that, to most people, the M3 is just another performance car that rides too hard, guzzles too much gas, and doesn't seem too impressive on paper. People buy the car for the status, or because they think it's fast, or because they're 17 and have too much money, or because they want something "nice" that'll still keep up with their buddy's Mustang. To those people, what really makes a naturally aspirated M3 great -- its throttle response, its high redline, its magical handling -- is completely unintelligible.

Why do you think the M3's competitors all have more torque and sloppier handling? Do you really think AMG and quattro couldn't hang if they wanted to, or could it be that most people would take low-end torque and a softer ride over genuine race car dynamics?

Why do you think it's essentially impossible to find an E46 M3 for sale in good condition? Is the car really that fragile, or are proper enthusiasts that rare?

Why do you think BMW's current model lineup is so annoyingly soft? Is BMW actively trying to drive away real enthusiasts, or is it following the more prevalent market trends?

Even in the enthusiast-laden online communities, there are hordes of people trying to cheap out on upkeep in ways that make you wonder why they bought an M3 in the first place. So many M3s ride on junk tires and have suspensions that are completely shot, and their owners are constantly trying to find a cheaper oil to run. Among the people who want to go fast, so many are terrified of the engine's best RPM range -- they think using 50% throttle and shifting at 6k is "racing." This is not something you'd expect to see if informed and passionate owners were any more than a tiny minority.

Yes, there are enthusiasts. Yes, they are passionate. Yes, they know their cars. They do not represent the majority of M3 owners, and they are essentially nonexistent in the grand scheme of the automotive market as a whole. They (we) are a subset of a subset of a subset of people who like performance cars, which itself is a minority in the general population. It hurts, but it's a truth that must be faced.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3437650 - 07/27/14 06:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
The M3 does not "punish" you if you don't drive it hard.

It does in two ways:

1. Ever popped the valve cover on a mildly treated E46 M3? If you do, prepare to see varnish. They only stay clean with short OCIs and conscientious hard driving.

2. As docile as the M3 is compared to sports cars, it's jarring and effortful compared to just about any other sport sedan of the same vintage. The (relatively) weighty controls, higher-than-average NVH, and firm ride make no sense until you start driving it as it's meant to be driven.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3437680 - 07/27/14 06:54 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
SilverC6 Online   content


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1628
Loc: Southeast
My son's BMW Z4M is painful for me to drive for any period of time.

It's purposeful: an engine, two seats, and just enough sheetmetal to cover its short wheelbase.

However, I can't help smiling whenever I take the opportunity to drive it a few miles down the road.

Now my M6 on full sport plus settings is just as punishing.

But with either M car, it's all about going fast in the "Ultimate Driving Machine."
_________________________
'04 Mazda RX8 5W30 NAPA Syn
'10 &'11 Camry Edge 0W-20
'11 Landcruiser 5W20 PU
'13 BMW 550IX BMW 5W30
'08 BMW Z4M Coupe TWS 10W60
'13 BMW M6 BMW 5W30

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#3437728 - 07/27/14 07:40 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Awesome timing on that post. I just got back from the household of a friend whose lightweighted all-motor E46 M3 will have to be pried from his cold dead fingers.

The same household also includes an E39 M5, a beautiful all-motor 128i, an E46 330i ZHP, and an E91 328i, as well as a new Boxster and a 930 Carrera. This is the family that sold me my last car, an E36 M3 (which I owned at the time of the post you're responding to). It's basically a small monument to naturally aspirated, chassis-oriented, Bavarian-made sport sedans. In our extended circle of mutual friends, there is at least one more ZHP and more E46 and E9x M3s than I can count, as well as various other naturally aspirated M cars.

So, yeah, I feel like I know a thing or two about what makes BMW M cars great. In a nutshell, it's not about numbers or easy speed; it's about legit race car dynamics in a usable package. The main reason I no longer own a BMW M car is that I don't feel they take that formula far enough.

But you don't know me at all, so I can't blame you for being so dismissive. No worries.

Yes, there are a lot of active M3 enthusiasts online. The Internet can make just about any interest group look big. The fact remains that, to most people, the M3 is just another performance car that rides too hard, guzzles too much gas, and doesn't seem too impressive on paper. People buy the car for the status, or because they think it's fast, or because they're 17 and have too much money, or because they want something "nice" that'll still keep up with their buddy's Mustang. To those people, what really makes a naturally aspirated M3 great -- its throttle response, its high redline, its magical handling -- is completely unintelligible.

Why do you think the M3's competitors all have more torque and sloppier handling? Do you really think AMG and quattro couldn't hang if they wanted to, or could it be that most people would take low-end torque and a softer ride over genuine race car dynamics?

Why do you think it's essentially impossible to find an E46 M3 for sale in good condition? Is the car really that fragile, or are proper enthusiasts that rare?

Why do you think BMW's current model lineup is so annoyingly soft? Is BMW actively trying to drive away real enthusiasts, or is it following the more prevalent market trends?

Even in the enthusiast-laden online communities, there are hordes of people trying to cheap out on upkeep in ways that make you wonder why they bought an M3 in the first place. So many M3s ride on junk tires and have suspensions that are completely shot, and their owners are constantly trying to find a cheaper oil to run. Among the people who want to go fast, so many are terrified of the engine's best RPM range -- they think using 50% throttle and shifting at 6k is "racing." This is not something you'd expect to see if informed and passionate owners were any more than a tiny minority.

Yes, there are enthusiasts. Yes, they are passionate. Yes, they know their cars. They do not represent the majority of M3 owners, and they are essentially nonexistent in the grand scheme of the automotive market as a whole. They (we) are a subset of a subset of a subset of people who like performance cars, which itself is a minority in the general population. It hurts, but it's a truth that must be faced.

I agree with much of what you posted, but what's your point? My post wasn't about those issues, but rather I called you on your claim that an M3 will "punish" you if you don't drive it hard. It's a baseless claim and nothing you said convinces me otherwise.

I'm not sure where you're going about not owning a BMW M car because they aren't performance oriented enough. Why you driving an RX-8 then?

There are a lot of reasons why it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition. For one, many people blindly follow BMW's 15000 mi / 20000 km oci, which is double what it should be. (FWIW, my mechanic, who works on BMW, Porsche, MB, etc. considers new BMWs to be disposable because if people follow BMW's recommended maintenance intervals, the engines inevitably will become sludged up and dirty. It's well known that BMW isn't alone on this regard. The same thing applies to VAG.)

The other reason it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition is because the cars are becoming cheap enough for young drivers to purchase without knowing how expensive the cars are to own. They can't afford proper tires. They can't afford oil changes. Etc. The result is that cars owned by such people end up as beaters or get totaled. The same thing happened with E36s and E30s. Try finding either of them in good condition.

As for the direction BMW is going, it's irrelevant what I think. I assume BMW is doing what they perceive will result in the most profit and that they couldn't care less what enthusiasts or owners of older models think. I think it's fair to say that if they gave a sh*t, they would have addressed the oil, VANOS and subframe issues differently, as opposed to not all.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3437755 - 07/27/14 08:02 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
The M3 does not "punish" you if you don't drive it hard.

It does in two ways:

1. Ever popped the valve cover on a mildly treated E46 M3? If you do, prepare to see varnish. They only stay clean with short OCIs and conscientious hard driving.

2. As docile as the M3 is compared to sports cars, it's jarring and effortful compared to just about any other sport sedan of the same vintage. The (relatively) weighty controls, higher-than-average NVH, and firm ride make no sense until you start driving it as it's meant to be driven.

If you don't regularly change the oil and properly warm up any car engine, it will end up sludged up. I thought this thread was about oil. What does the ride of an M3 have to do with oil?
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3438203 - 07/28/14 08:44 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
Probably safe to say we've reached some kind of limit, either on my ability to articulate my points or on your ability to see what I'm really saying. Or both.

It's not important to me to make you understand and agree with me, so I think we can agree to let your points stand.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3440483 - 07/30/14 11:01 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: shDK]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 313
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.




Alfa Romeo spec it as well from memory for their 2.0L JTS engine

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#3440503 - 07/30/14 11:25 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
I've got family in Europe. Their local Volvo dealer uses Castrol 10w-60 in their V40 T4 (2 liter turbo), as well. Not sure that it's actually recommended, but it's probably one of allowed viscosities. It's overkill, IMO, but it is what it is.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3440785 - 07/30/14 03:44 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: riggaz]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.




Alfa Romeo spec it as well from memory for their 2.0L JTS engine



Correct, as does Aston Martin.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3440786 - 07/30/14 03:44 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: riggaz]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.




Alfa Romeo spec it as well from memory for their 2.0L JTS engine


As does Aston Martin. It's part of the reason you see non-BMW approved 10w60s, like Castrol Edge Sport, Mobil 1 Extended Life, Liqui-Moly GT1, etc.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3440890 - 07/30/14 05:21 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: riggaz]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 372
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.




Alfa Romeo spec it as well from memory for their 2.0L JTS engine

Basically they spec 10w60 for old Arese V6 and 16v TS petrols in severe use. Jts is spec'd 10w60 even gor normal use.
Selenia Racing is spec'd for Maserati 3200 also.
Latter 1.4 tjet and 1750 TBI are spec'd for C3 oil.


Edited by chrisri (07/30/14 05:34 PM)
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v (Mobil Super 3000x1 5w40)
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet (Selenia WR 5w40)
93 Ford Escort 1.3 HCS (HDO 5w30)

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#3442777 - 08/01/14 11:50 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Awesome timing on that post. I just got back from the household of a friend whose lightweighted all-motor E46 M3 will have to be pried from his cold dead fingers.

The same household also includes an E39 M5, a beautiful all-motor 128i, an E46 330i ZHP, and an E91 328i, as well as a new Boxster and a 930 Carrera. This is the family that sold me my last car, an E36 M3 (which I owned at the time of the post you're responding to). It's basically a small monument to naturally aspirated, chassis-oriented, Bavarian-made sport sedans. In our extended circle of mutual friends, there is at least one more ZHP and more E46 and E9x M3s than I can count, as well as various other naturally aspirated M cars.

So, yeah, I feel like I know a thing or two about what makes BMW M cars great. In a nutshell, it's not about numbers or easy speed; it's about legit race car dynamics in a usable package. The main reason I no longer own a BMW M car is that I don't feel they take that formula far enough.

But you don't know me at all, so I can't blame you for being so dismissive. No worries.

Yes, there are a lot of active M3 enthusiasts online. The Internet can make just about any interest group look big. The fact remains that, to most people, the M3 is just another performance car that rides too hard, guzzles too much gas, and doesn't seem too impressive on paper. People buy the car for the status, or because they think it's fast, or because they're 17 and have too much money, or because they want something "nice" that'll still keep up with their buddy's Mustang. To those people, what really makes a naturally aspirated M3 great -- its throttle response, its high redline, its magical handling -- is completely unintelligible.

Why do you think the M3's competitors all have more torque and sloppier handling? Do you really think AMG and quattro couldn't hang if they wanted to, or could it be that most people would take low-end torque and a softer ride over genuine race car dynamics?

Why do you think it's essentially impossible to find an E46 M3 for sale in good condition? Is the car really that fragile, or are proper enthusiasts that rare?

Why do you think BMW's current model lineup is so annoyingly soft? Is BMW actively trying to drive away real enthusiasts, or is it following the more prevalent market trends?

Even in the enthusiast-laden online communities, there are hordes of people trying to cheap out on upkeep in ways that make you wonder why they bought an M3 in the first place. So many M3s ride on junk tires and have suspensions that are completely shot, and their owners are constantly trying to find a cheaper oil to run. Among the people who want to go fast, so many are terrified of the engine's best RPM range -- they think using 50% throttle and shifting at 6k is "racing." This is not something you'd expect to see if informed and passionate owners were any more than a tiny minority.

Yes, there are enthusiasts. Yes, they are passionate. Yes, they know their cars. They do not represent the majority of M3 owners, and they are essentially nonexistent in the grand scheme of the automotive market as a whole. They (we) are a subset of a subset of a subset of people who like performance cars, which itself is a minority in the general population. It hurts, but it's a truth that must be faced.

I agree with much of what you posted, but what's your point? My post wasn't about those issues, but rather I called you on your claim that an M3 will "punish" you if you don't drive it hard. It's a baseless claim and nothing you said convinces me otherwise.

I'm not sure where you're going about not owning a BMW M car because they aren't performance oriented enough. Why you driving an RX-8 then?

There are a lot of reasons why it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition. For one, many people blindly follow BMW's 15000 mi / 20000 km oci, which is double what it should be. (FWIW, my mechanic, who works on BMW, Porsche, MB, etc. considers new BMWs to be disposable because if people follow BMW's recommended maintenance intervals, the engines inevitably will become sludged up and dirty. It's well known that BMW isn't alone on this regard. The same thing applies to VAG.)

The other reason it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition is because the cars are becoming cheap enough for young drivers to purchase without knowing how expensive the cars are to own. They can't afford proper tires. They can't afford oil changes. Etc. The result is that cars owned by such people end up as beaters or get totaled. The same thing happened with E36s and E30s. Try finding either of them in good condition.

As for the direction BMW is going, it's irrelevant what I think. I assume BMW is doing what they perceive will result in the most profit and that they couldn't care less what enthusiasts or owners of older models think. I think it's fair to say that if they gave a sh*t, they would have addressed the oil, VANOS and subframe issues differently, as opposed to not all.



Anothing thing we have to keep in mind that most people buying M cars these days are NOT driving them in a manor in which they were built to be driven. These are high-revving, high piston speed race motors, in essence. Speaking with a couple of the local shops really getting into S54 performance what they're finding is that when doing S54 work (especially turbo, swapping them into E36's, etc.) - first thing you do is pull the pan and roll new bearings into it, because they WILL be worn. These engines need to be warmed up gently before being driven, something 99% of drivers are not doing, and that is exacerbating the bearing issues. They need to be warmed up to full temp, then driven WOT. Max load, ran to redline. Every day. It's what they're designed to do.
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

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#3442856 - 08/01/14 01:11 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
I don't buy that argument. BMW knows these are street driven cars. There is no reason the car should need special treatment like that. I do agree that it was designed for hard driving, but that doesn't automatically mean it wasn't designed for around-town stuff.

Tens of thousands of M cars have seen 99.9% of their miles on the street without much complaint. Mine has done 57,000 total, and I'd bet that 56,750 of it is DD duties.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3442888 - 08/01/14 01:32 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
BMW also know that they make plenty of other cars that aren't much slower on the street and vastly more sensible in that environment. I'm especially thinking of CATERHAM's post about his encounter with a BMW engineer, who was confused when asked about oil choice for M3s that never see high oil temps. His response was something to the effect of "why not get a normal 3er then?"

More importantly though, I think "designed for"/"not designed for" is too black-and-white. It's a spectrum: Prius on one end, race car on the other, infinite shades in between. The E46 and E9x M3s are somewhere between Prius and race car, but farther from the "Prius" end than most street cars.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3442942 - 08/01/14 02:41 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Awesome timing on that post. I just got back from the household of a friend whose lightweighted all-motor E46 M3 will have to be pried from his cold dead fingers.

The same household also includes an E39 M5, a beautiful all-motor 128i, an E46 330i ZHP, and an E91 328i, as well as a new Boxster and a 930 Carrera. This is the family that sold me my last car, an E36 M3 (which I owned at the time of the post you're responding to). It's basically a small monument to naturally aspirated, chassis-oriented, Bavarian-made sport sedans. In our extended circle of mutual friends, there is at least one more ZHP and more E46 and E9x M3s than I can count, as well as various other naturally aspirated M cars.

So, yeah, I feel like I know a thing or two about what makes BMW M cars great. In a nutshell, it's not about numbers or easy speed; it's about legit race car dynamics in a usable package. The main reason I no longer own a BMW M car is that I don't feel they take that formula far enough.

But you don't know me at all, so I can't blame you for being so dismissive. No worries.

Yes, there are a lot of active M3 enthusiasts online. The Internet can make just about any interest group look big. The fact remains that, to most people, the M3 is just another performance car that rides too hard, guzzles too much gas, and doesn't seem too impressive on paper. People buy the car for the status, or because they think it's fast, or because they're 17 and have too much money, or because they want something "nice" that'll still keep up with their buddy's Mustang. To those people, what really makes a naturally aspirated M3 great -- its throttle response, its high redline, its magical handling -- is completely unintelligible.

Why do you think the M3's competitors all have more torque and sloppier handling? Do you really think AMG and quattro couldn't hang if they wanted to, or could it be that most people would take low-end torque and a softer ride over genuine race car dynamics?

Why do you think it's essentially impossible to find an E46 M3 for sale in good condition? Is the car really that fragile, or are proper enthusiasts that rare?

Why do you think BMW's current model lineup is so annoyingly soft? Is BMW actively trying to drive away real enthusiasts, or is it following the more prevalent market trends?

Even in the enthusiast-laden online communities, there are hordes of people trying to cheap out on upkeep in ways that make you wonder why they bought an M3 in the first place. So many M3s ride on junk tires and have suspensions that are completely shot, and their owners are constantly trying to find a cheaper oil to run. Among the people who want to go fast, so many are terrified of the engine's best RPM range -- they think using 50% throttle and shifting at 6k is "racing." This is not something you'd expect to see if informed and passionate owners were any more than a tiny minority.

Yes, there are enthusiasts. Yes, they are passionate. Yes, they know their cars. They do not represent the majority of M3 owners, and they are essentially nonexistent in the grand scheme of the automotive market as a whole. They (we) are a subset of a subset of a subset of people who like performance cars, which itself is a minority in the general population. It hurts, but it's a truth that must be faced.

I agree with much of what you posted, but what's your point? My post wasn't about those issues, but rather I called you on your claim that an M3 will "punish" you if you don't drive it hard. It's a baseless claim and nothing you said convinces me otherwise.

I'm not sure where you're going about not owning a BMW M car because they aren't performance oriented enough. Why you driving an RX-8 then?

There are a lot of reasons why it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition. For one, many people blindly follow BMW's 15000 mi / 20000 km oci, which is double what it should be. (FWIW, my mechanic, who works on BMW, Porsche, MB, etc. considers new BMWs to be disposable because if people follow BMW's recommended maintenance intervals, the engines inevitably will become sludged up and dirty. It's well known that BMW isn't alone on this regard. The same thing applies to VAG.)

The other reason it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition is because the cars are becoming cheap enough for young drivers to purchase without knowing how expensive the cars are to own. They can't afford proper tires. They can't afford oil changes. Etc. The result is that cars owned by such people end up as beaters or get totaled. The same thing happened with E36s and E30s. Try finding either of them in good condition.

As for the direction BMW is going, it's irrelevant what I think. I assume BMW is doing what they perceive will result in the most profit and that they couldn't care less what enthusiasts or owners of older models think. I think it's fair to say that if they gave a sh*t, they would have addressed the oil, VANOS and subframe issues differently, as opposed to not all.



Anothing thing we have to keep in mind that most people buying M cars these days are NOT driving them in a manor in which they were built to be driven. These are high-revving, high piston speed race motors, in essence. Speaking with a couple of the local shops really getting into S54 performance what they're finding is that when doing S54 work (especially turbo, swapping them into E36's, etc.) - first thing you do is pull the pan and roll new bearings into it, because they WILL be worn. These engines need to be warmed up gently before being driven, something 99% of drivers are not doing, and that is exacerbating the bearing issues. They need to be warmed up to full temp, then driven WOT. Max load, ran to redline. Every day. It's what they're designed to do.

There are plenty of threads over on M3F about rod bearings. They do wear, but typically it's gradual wear. It's also easy to diagnose with an oil analysis. S54 engines do need to be warmed up gently, which is why they have the temperature varying redline, but I don't know where you get the idea that they "need" to be redlined every day. They simply need to be warmed up completely, but that is no different from any other engine. If you take any car that is driven frequently without being warmed up and not given regular oil changes, it will have deposits and sludge inside the engine. There are also plenty of examples of E46 M3 valve cover deposits. The only S54 engines that have clean valve covers are the ones that get frequent oil changes.
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#3442945 - 08/01/14 02:45 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW also know that they make plenty of other cars that aren't much slower on the street and vastly more sensible in that environment. I'm especially thinking of CATERHAM's post about his encounter with a BMW engineer, who was confused when asked about oil choice for M3s that never see high oil temps. His response was something to the effect of "why not get a normal 3er then?"

More importantly though, I think "designed for"/"not designed for" is too black-and-white. It's a spectrum: Prius on one end, race car on the other, infinite shades in between. The E46 and E9x M3s are somewhere between Prius and race car, but farther from the "Prius" end than most street cars.

If that's the case, then what's your explanation for the N54/N55 engines, which are regular engines designed for the range of BMW vehicles. If they are not given more than BMW recommended oil changes, they will sludge up. Same for audi engines.
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#3442953 - 08/01/14 02:51 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
I can't explain something I didn't bring up and that doesn't seem relevant... shrug
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#3443008 - 08/01/14 03:44 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 372
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW also know that they make plenty of other cars that aren't much slower on the street and vastly more sensible in that environment. I'm especially thinking of CATERHAM's post about his encounter with a BMW engineer, who was confused when asked about oil choice for M3s that never see high oil temps. His response was something to the effect of "why not get a normal 3er then?"

More importantly though, I think "designed for"/"not designed for" is too black-and-white. It's a spectrum: Prius on one end, race car on the other, infinite shades in between. The E46 and E9x M3s are somewhere between Prius and race car, but farther from the "Prius" end than most street cars.


M3 is designed and built in Germany with European buyer in mind. No one buys M3 to go to the store or driving kids to kindegarten. Petrol is too dear to do that. These cars are driven here by die hard enthusiast who either don't drive it at all or by people who track them all the time. In US with cheap petrol, fairly cheap cars they become interesting to a wider public.
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#3443021 - 08/01/14 03:54 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: chrisri]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: chrisri
In US with cheap petrol, fairly cheap cars they become interesting to a wider public.

Like my brother-in-law, who drives his '13 M3 to work, 2 miles each away, and maybe to the grocery store on the weekend. That's about it, I think.

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#3443752 - 08/02/14 10:52 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: chrisri]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW also know that they make plenty of other cars that aren't much slower on the street and vastly more sensible in that environment. I'm especially thinking of CATERHAM's post about his encounter with a BMW engineer, who was confused when asked about oil choice for M3s that never see high oil temps. His response was something to the effect of "why not get a normal 3er then?"

More importantly though, I think "designed for"/"not designed for" is too black-and-white. It's a spectrum: Prius on one end, race car on the other, infinite shades in between. The E46 and E9x M3s are somewhere between Prius and race car, but farther from the "Prius" end than most street cars.


M3 is designed and built in Germany with European buyer in mind. No one buys M3 to go to the store or driving kids to kindegarten. Petrol is too dear to do that. These cars are driven here by die hard enthusiast who either don't drive it at all or by people who track them all the time. In US with cheap petrol, fairly cheap cars they become interesting to a wider public.



My M3 stickered for $73,375 + tax + gas guzzler fee when the original buyer snatched it up in early 2011. I wouldn't call that a "fairly cheap car." Our gas might be cheaper in the US, but an M3 is still expensive here. The new ones can pass $80k pretty easily.
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#3443775 - 08/02/14 11:26 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
His point was that cars are generally less expensive in the US than they are in the rest of the world, and that that makes Americans relatively more willing to put up with terrible fuel economy if they like the car otherwise.
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#3443820 - 08/02/14 12:16 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 372
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
His point was that cars are generally less expensive in the US than they are in the rest of the world, and that that makes Americans relatively more willing to put up with terrible fuel economy if they like the car otherwise.


That was my point. I know that M car is not cheap anywhere but they are cheaper in US by a big margin. An M3 owner in US is similar to a 335d M Pack owner in Europe.


Edited by chrisri (08/02/14 12:17 PM)
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#3443848 - 08/02/14 12:56 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
Back in 1991 I've used M1 10w60 SF in a Honda XLX600R I had, put with 1 k miles on the bike and run it until I sold it two years later at 14,5k miles. At that time I didn't know nothing about oil and the shearing up those VIIs at gears and wet clutches ... The guy who bought it ran for a few years and may have changed the oil soon. I did several dirty off road trips with it. At least for 13k miles the oil did fine.
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1995 Ford Taurus 3.0 Vulcan 78k miles Mobil 1 5w30
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#3490573 - 09/22/14 09:40 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
Gtiguy34 Offline


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: worcester MA
But an S2000 does and that doesn't need fancy oil :-P

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#3490596 - 09/22/14 10:00 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: chrisri]
SilverC6 Online   content


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1628
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
His point was that cars are generally less expensive in the US than they are in the rest of the world, and that that makes Americans relatively more willing to put up with terrible fuel economy if they like the car otherwise.


That was my point. I know that M car is not cheap anywhere but they are cheaper in US by a big margin. An M3 owner in US is similar to a 335d M Pack owner in Europe.


M's are not exactly cheap in the US.

And, with the exception of the relatively prolific M3's, there aren't that many around.
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#3490597 - 09/22/14 10:01 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Gtiguy34]
SilverC6 Online   content


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1628
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: Gtiguy34
But an S2000 does and that doesn't need fancy oil :-P


That's because it doesn't make enough horsepower.
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#3496575 - 09/29/14 09:03 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: SilverC6]
Gtiguy34 Offline


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 11
Loc: worcester MA
It was in reference to the piston speeds being similar to an F1 engine. They make plenty of horsepower.... Just not enough torque

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#3496601 - 09/29/14 09:48 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: SilverC6]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
I suspect oil temps are more to the point there. The S2000 might not be generating enough heat to require a ridiculously thick oil.
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#3497416 - 09/30/14 06:55 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
gatorfast Offline


Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 9
Loc: Fla
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I suspect oil temps are more to the point there. The S2000 might not be generating enough heat to require a ridiculously thick oil.


Good point. But the M3's S65 engine which is specd for 10-60 runs at an operating temp of 210F which is certainly not high.
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#3497424 - 09/30/14 07:09 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: gatorfast]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9291
Loc: PA
I'm pretty sure the 10w-60 is more for the max temps than for the typical temps. In other words, it's to make sure you're okay in the middle of a hard track session on a hot summer day, not during mild use on the daily commute.

IF -- and I'm not sure if this is true, but IF -- the S2000 doesn't heat its oil as much as the M3 does under those conditions, that might partly explain the difference in oil specs.
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#3498371 - 09/30/14 10:19 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Gtiguy34]
SilverC6 Online   content


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1628
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: Gtiguy34
It was in reference to the piston speeds being similar to an F1 engine. They make plenty of horsepower.... Just not enough torque


237 HP is not plenty.

Two of the little 2.2 liter 4 cylinders hooked together wouldn't make plenty of horsepower.

And I think my Kohler powered lawn mower puts out more than 162 ft-lbs of torque.
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#3498509 - 10/01/14 04:02 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
weasley Offline


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 131
Loc: UK
There's more to it than just engine speed or temperature. Consider, for example, piston side-thrust forces. A high torque motor will put more side-thrust on the piston than a fast but low torque one. This will also translate into more thrust on the conrod bearings and crank journals.
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#3501028 - 10/03/14 01:08 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
terraphantm Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 1
Loc: Pennsylvania
At least with the S54, typical operating temperature tends to be around 85ºC; it might go a bit above 100ºC if you're driving particularly hard. Those temperatures seem pretty low to really require a 10w-60

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#3501130 - 10/03/14 02:43 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: terraphantm]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9712
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: terraphantm
At least with the S54, typical operating temperature tends to be around 85ºC; it might go a bit above 100ºC if you're driving particularly hard. Those temperatures seem pretty low to really require a 10w-60

You're absolutely right, which is why most owners that don't take their car to the track use a 0W-40. Remember this, the FF on these cars is just as 5W-30.
And for winter use, if you're not seeing oil temp's much above 85C I'd suggest an A5/B5 0W-30.
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#3501230 - 10/03/14 03:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 141
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
The factory fill is only kept in for running in and 1000 miles.

A 2.9HTHS oil in a S54 is a bad idea. That's almost half the HTHS of the 10W-60. Give it a bit of fuel and water dilution and it's going to be too thin for the S54 bearings.

Amazes me people can just guess a A5/B5 will 'be ok' as its cold, I guess these are the same guys who think mixing two oils is done how a good idea.

The bearing local temps are still high once warmed up. The bulk sump temperatures might be lower but that's only going to make the fuel and water dilution worse as it won't evaporate as easily.

BMW spec 10W-60 for a reason...



Edited by bobbydavro (10/03/14 03:49 PM)

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#3501362 - 10/03/14 05:58 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bobbydavro]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9712
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
What amazes me are those that think they have an understand of engine lubrication but have no idea of the concept of operational viscosity.
Sump oil temps and bearing oil temp's are linked; the higher the former, the higher the latter. And if you want to know specifically what the operational viscosity is in the bearings at any given moment just install an oil pressure gauge. There is a reason why HTHSV is often called "bearing viscosity".

Yes BMW spec's TWS 10W-60 (not any 10W-60) for a reason, and the possibility of high oil temp's when driven continuously at high rpms and under WOT conditions is the main reason.
And for those that don't know, a typical 3.0-3.1cP HTHSV 0W/5W-30 grade oil is more than 50% heavier at 100C than a nonsheared virgin TWS 10W-60 is at 150C. So running it in an M3/M5 that's not seeing oil temp's much above 85C is a very conservative approach to take. If it were me I'd run a 0W-20 which I've done during the winter in my own Bimmer.
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#3501410 - 10/03/14 07:06 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27072
Loc: a prison island
Your oil pressure viscometer is measuring the viscosity of the oil as it enters the right angle turn into the bearing.

As I've done and reported the calculations a number of times before, at any reasonable RPM above a couple thousand and with regular bearing clearances the oil passing from the main bearing gallery into the UNLOADED side of the bearing is operating in the high shear range...

Therefore you are measuring viscosity...of the bulk oil, as it enters the unloaded portion of the bearing.

As I've repeatedly demonstrated, the oil temperatures in the LOADED part of the bearing can be 20+ degrees C hotter than the bulk (unloaded feed area). It often doesn't "feel" right to someone with no training, or experience in all facets of bearing lubrication, but the temperature rise IS there, whether posited against or not.

And oil pressure has no relationship to MOFT on the loaded side of the bearing, other than the viscosity of the oil as it enters the unloaded side.

Further, in addition to the oil pressure gauge not seeing what's happening on the loaded side of the bearing, it further, cannot "see" what's going on in the big end bearing. As you would understand the big end is (intermittently) fed already heated oil, suffers the greatest peak load (mains are an average load) and in addition the load is highly cyclic, which tends to pump oil out of the bearing.

Big ends are operating in a whole different world to what can be "seen" with bulk oil temperature and oil pressure.

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#3501429 - 10/03/14 07:20 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 141
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
What amazes me are those that think they have an understand of engine lubrication but have no idea of the concept of operational viscosity.
Sump oil temps and bearing oil temp's are linked; the higher the former, the higher the latter. And if you want to know specifically what the operational viscosity is in the bearings at any given moment just install an oil pressure gauge. There is a reason why HTHSV is often called "bearing viscosity".

Yes BMW spec's TWS 10W-60 (not any 10W-60) for a reason, and the possibility of high oil temp's when driven continuously at high rpms and under WOT conditions is the main reason.
And for those that don't know, a typical 3.0-3.1cP HTHSV 0W/5W-30 grade oil is more than 50% heavier at 100C than a nonsheared virgin TWS 10W-60 is at 150C. So running it in an M3/M5 that's not seeing oil temp's much above 85C is a very conservative approach to take. If it were me I'd run a 0W-20 which I've done during the winter in my own Bimmer.



The engine design dictates the viscosity. Not the ambient conditions. Your 328 engine is completely different. How on earth will a oil pressure gauge tell you anything about viscosity??

KV100 is irrelevant as its under almost no shear. HTHS is measured at 150C and 10^7 shear rate, it is supposed to replicate a typical bearing. However the S54 isn't a typical bearing, so you can use a USV rig to look a higher shear rates which many VMs will simple shear out, leaving you with the Newtonian viscosity of the oil to keep bearings apart

S54s have pretty narrow bearings with a high specific torque so you can't run a 0W-20 and expect no issues.

Why do you think BMW refused warranty claims on cars that didn't have the 1000mile oil service ?


Edited by bobbydavro (10/03/14 07:23 PM)

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#3501465 - 10/03/14 07:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Shannow]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
Shannow - Yes, your comments are relevant IMO. OP and Temp. gauges cannot measure the component/lubricant "stress" at various areas around the engine

As you know I know a little about Castrol/BMW and the 10W-60 lubricant - that said, if an Owner wishes to deviate from the Castrol/BMW recommendations for any reason then a lubricant meeting ACEA A3/B3 would be the minimum for me!
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Doug

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#3501478 - 10/03/14 07:59 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 141
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
BMW still insist on 10W-60s only, but if your happy to go for lower visc I would agree on not going below 3.5cP HTHS. The Castrol TWS formulation was updated about 4yrs ago. It seems many bitog people have noticed this too.



Edited by bobbydavro (10/03/14 08:00 PM)

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#3501504 - 10/03/14 08:31 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
gatorfast Offline


Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 9
Loc: Fla
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Shannow - Yes, your comments are relevant IMO. OP and Temp. gauges cannot measure the component/lubricant "stress" at various areas around the engine

As you know I know a little about Castrol/BMW and the 10W-60 lubricant - that said, if an Owner wishes to deviate from the Castrol/BMW recommendations for any reason then a lubricant meeting ACEA A3/B3 would be the minimum for me!


Hi Doug

For an engine like the S65, do you think an oil such as M1 0w40 would suffice for a daily driven car seeing no track time?
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#3501542 - 10/03/14 08:56 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: gatorfast]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
gatofast - This from BMW USA;

"*The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport)
vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles
equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines

Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil,
BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420

or

Castrol Edge Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil
BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195"

Noting the above and the specifications LL01 of M1 0W-40 I would not hesitate to use it in a S65 engine for "everyday" use. Of course everyday use does NOT include track time or "hoon" type driving.
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Doug

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#3501715 - 10/04/14 04:15 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Apollo14 Offline


Registered: 08/18/14
Posts: 884
Loc: CA
Curiously, the Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5w30 data sheets that I can find say LL-04 not LL-01.

And this one says not to use in BMW Gasoline engines outside of the EU:

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/327FECC588E3ADE480257AD3003FBDCB/$File/PDS%20CCSA%20Castrol%20EDGE%20Professional%20OE%205W-30%20English.pdf

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#3501716 - 10/04/14 04:21 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27072
Loc: a prison island
C3 classification...sulfur issues ?

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#3501972 - 10/04/14 11:32 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9712
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Shannow - Yes, your comments are relevant IMO. OP and Temp. gauges cannot measure the component/lubricant "stress" at various areas around the engine


I agree with you but that is not the function of OP and OT gauges, they are macro tools not micro. Or to put another way they are reference points from which a safe minimum OP or maximum OT (for a given known lubricant) for an engine as a whole has been already been predetermined.
In the case of OP, since an OP gauge reading is a proxy for operational viscosity it is much more accurate for an engineer or engine tuner to provide the known safe minimum OP value than to recommend a single oil or oil grade if the operating conditions in terms of maximum oil temp's are known to very widely.
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#3502179 - 10/04/14 04:37 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
CATERRHAM - Thanks for your little "lesson" in the relevance of OP and Temp gauges - you probably know however that I am already skilled in this area!

My point is that the HTHS viscosity is the critical measurement in various areas within an operating engine - under load/stress or not. Temporary shearing of the lubricant is a critical factor in engine durability!

This is why the Euro Manufacturers sought to have HTHS within their Certification regime via ACEA - at a time when API and even SAE were coming to grips with rapidly changing engine technologies in the hands of Mr & Mrs Average!

It is only a decade or so ago that even the mention of ACEA was derided here on BITOG - most contributors didn't know about it an it's Manufacturer generated & endorsed Certification processes

IMO it is unwise to suggest to Mr & Mrs Average that a reduction in viscosity based on OP and Temp gauges alone is unwise!

IME using the lowest viscosity recommended for a particular application by the Manufacturer is wise!
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3502199 - 10/04/14 05:04 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,

error;
This;

IMO it is unwise to suggest to Mr & Mrs Average that a reduction in viscosity based on OP and Temp gauges alone is unwise!

should have read;

IMO to suggest to Mr & Mrs Average that a reduction in viscosity based on OP and Temp gauges alone is unwise!


Sorry, it's the Tropical heat getting to me......or age............or both!!
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3502244 - 10/04/14 06:05 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Shannow]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7629
Loc: Saskatoon canada
I
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Your oil pressure viscometer is measuring the viscosity of the oil as it enters the right angle turn into the bearing.

As I've done and reported the calculations a number of times before, at any reasonable RPM above a couple thousand and with regular bearing clearances the oil passing from the main bearing gallery into the UNLOADED side of the bearing is operating in the high shear range...

Therefore you are measuring viscosity...of the bulk oil, as it enters the unloaded portion of the bearing.

As I've repeatedly demonstrated, the oil temperatures in the LOADED part of the bearing can be 20+ degrees C hotter than the bulk (unloaded feed area). It often doesn't "feel" right to someone with no training, or experience in all facets of bearing lubrication, but the temperature rise IS there, whether posited against or not.

And oil pressure has no relationship to MOFT on the loaded side of the bearing, other than the viscosity of the oil as it enters the unloaded side.

Further, in addition to the oil pressure gauge not seeing what's happening on the loaded side of the bearing, it further, cannot "see" what's going on in the big end bearing. As you would understand the big end is (intermittently) fed already heated oil, suffers the greatest peak load (mains are an average load) and in addition the load is highly cyclic, which tends to pump oil out of the bearing.

Big ends are operating in a whole different world to what can be "seen" with bulk oil temperature and oil pressure.





Interesting.
Very interesting.

So bulk oil temps don't reflect actual oil temps in the bearing under load and can be much hotter at those spots,thinning the oil at the most critical area.
Very interesting indeed. Thanks Shannow.
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#3502251 - 10/04/14 06:13 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bobbydavro]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7629
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
The factory fill is only kept in for running in and 1000 miles.

A 2.9HTHS oil in a S54 is a bad idea. That's almost half the HTHS of the 10W-60. Give it a bit of fuel and water dilution and it's going to be too thin for the S54 bearings.

Amazes me people can just guess a A5/B5 will 'be ok' as its cold, I guess these are the same guys who think mixing two oils is done how a good idea.

The bearing local temps are still high once warmed up. The bulk sump temperatures might be lower but that's only going to make the fuel and water dilution worse as it won't evaporate as easily.

BMW spec 10W-60 for a reason...




Alright there bud.
You've toucjed on a few points there so time to back up your yip.
Exactly what data have you got that says mixing oils are bad,considering redline encourages doing so to fine tune the viscosity.
And don't even try to bring up that "additive clash" nonsense.
Every used oil analysis I've seen posted here using a frankenbrew of different brands and grades show no issues whatsoever with the oil nor were there any anomalies in the wear metal trended data,so please enlighten us with evidence to the contrary. And not some opinion,data from a lab please.
And BMW specifies a 10w-60 to cover their rears,period. It's a bandaid fix.
For a new guy you've got some pretty firm beliefs. I wonder what previously banned member you are.
Don't tell me. Me and my friends enjoy the chase.
_________________________
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Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3502255 - 10/04/14 06:19 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Clevy]
Apollo14 Offline


Registered: 08/18/14
Posts: 884
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
The factory fill is only kept in for running in and 1000 miles.
..........

BMW spec 10W-60 for a reason...



For a new guy you've got some pretty firm beliefs. I wonder what previously banned member you are.
Don't tell me. Me and my friends enjoy the chase.


Wow! Sherlock Holmes strikes again.

bobbydavro Registered: 02/01/09

Clevy Registered: 11/11/10

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#3502322 - 10/04/14 07:34 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Clevy]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26705
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Clevy

And BMW specifies a 10w-60 to cover their rears,period. It's a bandaid fix.


No, as has already been mentioned, BMW specs/spec'd the TWS 10w-60 because it is a known quantity to them and is necessary in some engines for proper protection at Autobahn speeds and the oil temps that go along with them.

That said, there were two cars/engines that BMW "band-aided" with the TWS product, the first was the E46 M3 and the S54 engine, which was having rod bearing failure issues. The TWS was then spec'd for it as apparently it was thought it would reduce the failures. There was eventually a recall for this problem. The second was the E39 M5 prior to 03/00 to deal with the ultra low tension rings and excessive oil consumption. Post 03/00 cars spec'd LL-01 as they received revised rings that fixed the issue.
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#3502329 - 10/04/14 07:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: OVERKILL]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy

And BMW specifies a 10w-60 to cover their rears,period. It's a bandaid fix.


No, as has already been mentioned, BMW specs/spec'd the TWS 10w-60 because it is a known quantity to them and is necessary in some engines for proper protection at Autobahn speeds and the oil temps that go along with them.

That said, there were two cars/engines that BMW "band-aided" with the TWS product, the first was the E46 M3 and the S54 engine, which was having rod bearing failure issues. The TWS was then spec'd for it as apparently it was thought it would reduce the failures. There was eventually a recall for this problem. The second was the E39 M5 prior to 03/00 to deal with the ultra low tension rings and excessive oil consumption. Post 03/00 cars spec'd LL-01 as they received revised rings that fixed the issue.


Certainly the Z4M required 10w-60. And it wasn't a band aid.
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Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3502563 - 10/05/14 05:58 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Clevy]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 141
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
The factory fill is only kept in for running in and 1000 miles.

A 2.9HTHS oil in a S54 is a bad idea. That's almost half the HTHS of the 10W-60. Give it a bit of fuel and water dilution and it's going to be too thin for the S54 bearings.

Amazes me people can just guess a A5/B5 will 'be ok' as its cold, I guess these are the same guys who think mixing two oils is done how a good idea.

The bearing local temps are still high once warmed up. The bulk sump temperatures might be lower but that's only going to make the fuel and water dilution worse as it won't evaporate as easily.

BMW spec 10W-60 for a reason...




Alright there bud.
You've toucjed on a few points there so time to back up your yip.
Exactly what data have you got that says mixing oils are bad,considering redline encourages doing so to fine tune the viscosity.
And don't even try to bring up that "additive clash" nonsense.
Every used oil analysis I've seen posted here using a frankenbrew of different brands and grades show no issues whatsoever with the oil nor were there any anomalies in the wear metal trended data,so please enlighten us with evidence to the contrary. And not some opinion,data from a lab please.
And BMW specifies a 10w-60 to cover their rears,period. It's a bandaid fix.
For a new guy you've got some pretty firm beliefs. I wonder what previously banned member you are.
Don't tell me. Me and my friends enjoy the chase.


I can assure you I may be new here. But I'm not new to oil. And I'm not previously banned.

I just can't see how people think you can fine tune the oil further than what the manufacturer has done. Mixing the oils will mean the 'final' oil no longer meets specifications either. ACC and ATEIL have no guidelines for mixing formulations.

Additive can interact and cause issues. Unfortunately I cannot share examples but low temperature performance can be compromised with witches brews of VM and PPDs

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#3503033 - 10/05/14 05:46 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bobbydavro]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27072
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Additive can interact and cause issues. Unfortunately I cannot share examples but low temperature performance can be compromised with witches brews of VM and PPDs


Careful, some in this thread have called me names for suggesting exactly that.

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#3503137 - 10/05/14 07:37 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Apollo14 Offline


Registered: 08/18/14
Posts: 884
Loc: CA
He already has been.

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#3503463 - 10/06/14 07:31 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Clevy]
weasley Offline


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 131
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Clevy
And don't even try to bring up that "additive clash" nonsense.


Sources please. And ad hoc, unscientifically-run user experience does not constitute a defence. Under most conditions most people will get away with it. Under rare but possible other conditions, guess what....? Nobody here has tested any and every possible combination of brews and running conditions. Additive clash is a real phenomenon, even if it is not common.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Every used oil analysis I've seen posted here using a frankenbrew of different brands and grades show no issues whatsoever with the oil nor were there any anomalies in the wear metal trended data


What you have seen is a TINY proportion of data from the world of oils running in engines. Millions of engines have failed over the years, most with no analysis or diagnosis.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
And BMW specifies a 10w-60 to cover their rears,period. It's a bandaid fix.


Please enlighten us with evidence. And not some opinion, data from a lab please.
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#3503694 - 10/06/14 02:05 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Apollo14 Offline


Registered: 08/18/14
Posts: 884
Loc: CA
popcorn

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#3505095 - 10/07/14 11:52 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bobbydavro]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
BMW still insist on 10W-60s only, but if your happy to go for lower visc I would agree on not going below 3.5cP HTHS. The Castrol TWS formulation was updated about 4yrs ago. It seems many bitog people have noticed this too.

I found this link that shows the analysis for the original and updated versions. There are some fairly substantial changes.
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1997 BMW 328is (sold)
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#3505102 - 10/08/14 12:05 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Trajan]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy

And BMW specifies a 10w-60 to cover their rears,period. It's a bandaid fix.

No, as has already been mentioned, BMW specs/spec'd the TWS 10w-60 because it is a known quantity to them and is necessary in some engines for proper protection at Autobahn speeds and the oil temps that go along with them.

That said, there were two cars/engines that BMW "band-aided" with the TWS product, the first was the E46 M3 and the S54 engine, which was having rod bearing failure issues. The TWS was then spec'd for it as apparently it was thought it would reduce the failures. There was eventually a recall for this problem. The second was the E39 M5 prior to 03/00 to deal with the ultra low tension rings and excessive oil consumption. Post 03/00 cars spec'd LL-01 as they received revised rings that fixed the issue.

Certainly the Z4M required 10w-60. And it wasn't a band aid.

The Z4M engine is the same as the E46 M3. If it really was purely a Band-Aid, I can't help but wonder why they did not back away from it after the respective changes.


Edited by bimmerdriver (10/08/14 12:05 AM)
_________________________
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1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3505242 - 10/08/14 08:04 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1326
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy

And BMW specifies a 10w-60 to cover their rears,period. It's a bandaid fix.

No, as has already been mentioned, BMW specs/spec'd the TWS 10w-60 because it is a known quantity to them and is necessary in some engines for proper protection at Autobahn speeds and the oil temps that go along with them.

That said, there were two cars/engines that BMW "band-aided" with the TWS product, the first was the E46 M3 and the S54 engine, which was having rod bearing failure issues. The TWS was then spec'd for it as apparently it was thought it would reduce the failures. There was eventually a recall for this problem. The second was the E39 M5 prior to 03/00 to deal with the ultra low tension rings and excessive oil consumption. Post 03/00 cars spec'd LL-01 as they received revised rings that fixed the issue.

Certainly the Z4M required 10w-60. And it wasn't a band aid.

The Z4M engine is the same as the E46 M3. If it really was purely a Band-Aid, I can't help but wonder why they did not back away from it after the respective changes.


Consistency perhaps as the MZ4 wasn't sold in significant volumes.
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#3505478 - 10/08/14 12:57 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 141
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
The V8 engine and V10 M5 used 10W-60 too

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#3505487 - 10/08/14 01:04 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 141
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
BMW still insist on 10W-60s only, but if your happy to go for lower visc I would agree on not going below 3.5cP HTHS. The Castrol TWS formulation was updated about 4yrs ago. It seems many bitog people have noticed this too.

I found this link that shows the analysis for the original and updated versions. There are some fairly substantial changes.


Some wrong assumption in the latter part of thread but good to see that level of interest in formulation changes. Professional version has the UV dye and additional micro-filtration to the OEM factory fill specs

The current 10W-60 (aka TWS) is a very robust oil, loads of additive and a NOACK of 4%. Rumour has it that it is also the Bugatti veyron oil

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#3505901 - 10/08/14 08:38 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,

error;
This;

IMO it is unwise to suggest to Mr & Mrs Average that a reduction in viscosity based on OP and Temp gauges alone is unwise!

should have read;

IMO to suggest to Mr & Mrs Average that a reduction in viscosity based on OP and Temp gauges alone is unwise!


Sorry, it's the Tropical heat getting to me......or age............or both!!


Thanks for dropping by. Your comments are always of interest.

I would like to hear your comments on the differences between TWS Motorsport and TWS Edge Professional.

Also, since BMW recently selected Shell to replace Castrol for the factory lubricants, a lot of M owners for which TWS is specified by BMW are wondering what will happen to TWS Edge Professional and if it goes away, what to replace it with.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3506540 - 10/09/14 01:58 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 141
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
TWS Professional 10W-60 will continue.

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#3506673 - 10/09/14 04:53 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
bimmerdriver - The tweaks in the formulation appear to be driven by market forces and in disassociating with obsolete/out-dated ratings. This has been the history of this product from the original German ester based SE (no C? rating) 15W-50 version of the 1970s to the present.

It has come a long way from the original of the 1970s and during my testing and development over the next decade or so many formulation tweaks occurred. These included moving to 10W-60 and an API "C" rating. I used successfully it in a variety of high speed Japanese diesel engines - long before BMW came on board

In recent years, BMW (with its third party engine developers) and Castrol have worked very closely in continual development over many years, so, the final product's formulation will embrace all of the relevant issues. Some of its components appear to embrace Castrol's latest "marketing" rhetoric along with the need to increase the TBN

As for the future - Castrol will continue to sell their version and it will uphold its tradition which is Globally widespread

Shell have an excellent version - Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W-60 (a "full" synthetic). This is the lubricant endorsed by Ferrari (for what that's worth).............

Shell's lubricant range is extensive and broad spread. Their diesel engine lubricants are at the top of the tree and their Helix synthetic engine lubricants are up their too. Their driveline synthetics are amongst the oldest around with an incomparable reputation and they have a great following in the Industrial World
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3506849 - 10/09/14 09:07 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
bimmerdriver - The tweaks in the formulation appear to be driven by market forces and in disassociating with obsolete/out-dated ratings. This has been the history of this product from the original German ester based SE (no C? rating) 15W-50 version of the 1970s to the present.

It has come a long way from the original of the 1970s and during my testing and development over the next decade or so many formulation tweaks occurred. These included moving to 10W-60 and an API "C" rating. I used successfully it in a variety of high speed Japanese diesel engines - long before BMW came on board

In recent years, BMW (with its third party engine developers) and Castrol have worked very closely in continual development over many years, so, the final product's formulation will embrace all of the relevant issues. Some of its components appear to embrace Castrol's latest "marketing" rhetoric along with the need to increase the TBN

As for the future - Castrol will continue to sell their version and it will uphold its tradition which is Globally widespread

Shell have an excellent version - Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W-60 (a "full" synthetic). This is the lubricant endorsed by Ferrari (for what that's worth).............

Shell's lubricant range is extensive and broad spread. Their diesel engine lubricants are at the top of the tree and their Helix synthetic engine lubricants are up their too. Their driveline synthetics are amongst the oldest around with an incomparable reputation and they have a great following in the Industrial World

Hi Doug,

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my questions. I really appreciate it, as do others over on M3F where I shared it.

Best regards.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
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#3507275 - 10/10/14 12:29 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 141
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
I think it is unfair to suggest the new TWS is a tweak of the old. It is very different, different additive system, boosters, VM and base oil.

The latest formulation takes nothing from the previous formulation and is very much a clean sheet of paper.

Doug. Have you always been in Australia or have you spent time in the UK?

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#3507644 - 10/10/14 08:34 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bobbydavro]
Doug Hillary Online   content


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4880
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
bobbydavro - Please re-read my Post again, especially the third paragraph!

I'm originally from NZ and yes, I've spent some time in the UK. I did some of my Engineering training with BMC in 1962-1963 (London - Stewart & Ardern (Acton)), my last visit to Leyland was in 1975 when I spent some time with the Diesel engine Design and Development Engineers. I lived in Denmark for several years in the 1960s working for Chevron-Caltex.

I've been back to the UK on many occasions on business (I worked for the Swire Group here in OZ)and on vacation, mainly to Cornwall. Last time was to the Goodwood Revival in 2012 for the Mercedes Benz - Auto Union occasion
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Regards
Doug

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#3507736 - 10/10/14 10:37 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: weasley]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3382
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: Clevy
And don't even try to bring up that "additive clash" nonsense.


Sources please. And ad hoc, unscientifically-run user experience does not constitute a defence. Under most conditions most people will get away with it. Under rare but possible other conditions, guess what....? Nobody here has tested any and every possible combination of brews and running conditions. Additive clash is a real phenomenon, even if it is not common.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Every used oil analysis I've seen posted here using a frankenbrew of different brands and grades show no issues whatsoever with the oil nor were there any anomalies in the wear metal trended data


What you have seen is a TINY proportion of data from the world of oils running in engines. Millions of engines have failed over the years, most with no analysis or diagnosis.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
And BMW specifies a 10w-60 to cover their rears,period. It's a bandaid fix.


Please enlighten us with evidence. And not some opinion, data from a lab please.


Good luck getting it.
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3508729 - 10/12/14 05:25 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: shDK]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2796
Loc: usa
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.

bmw m engines often rev higher then the American pushrod engines. Maybe it has something to do with it?

10-60 is however often used in tuning communities.

I think 5-30 and 5-40 is most used in Europe.



Back in the day, the default oil was a 10W40 semi-synth. 10W60 is a Group V PAO oil.

Alfa Romeo actually came up with using fully synthetic 10W60 in the early 90s. Made their street-legal racing cars hold up 185000+mi without blowing the engine when being driven in a not so street-legal manner.

On 12500mi OCIs.


Edited by tommygunn (10/12/14 05:33 AM)

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#3509410 - 10/12/14 10:22 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
SilverC6 Online   content


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1628
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary


Shell have an excellent version - Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W-60 (a "full" synthetic). This is the lubricant endorsed by Ferrari (for what that's worth)..........


It will be interesting to see if BMW USA's relationship with Shell will bring more of their Helix products to BMW dealerships in North America.

Could Shell Helix 10W-60 be a possibility?
_________________________
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#3509600 - 10/13/14 08:02 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: SilverC6]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary


Shell have an excellent version - Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W-60 (a "full" synthetic). This is the lubricant endorsed by Ferrari (for what that's worth)..........


It will be interesting to see if BMW USA's relationship with Shell will bring more of their Helix products to BMW dealerships in North America.

Could Shell Helix 10W-60 be a possibility?




If you know where to look, you can already get Pennzoil Ultra 10w60 here in the US (same thing as Helix).
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3509603 - 10/13/14 08:06 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26152
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: dparm
If you know where to look,

Ferrari dealership?
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'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3509621 - 10/13/14 08:24 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12568
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dparm
If you know where to look,

Ferrari dealership?


Probably (though lately they've switched the new vehicles to 5w40), and also a few online retailers like Oil-Store. Amazon apparently sells it, but is out of stock.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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