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#3437650 - 07/27/14 06:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9237
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
The M3 does not "punish" you if you don't drive it hard.

It does in two ways:

1. Ever popped the valve cover on a mildly treated E46 M3? If you do, prepare to see varnish. They only stay clean with short OCIs and conscientious hard driving.

2. As docile as the M3 is compared to sports cars, it's jarring and effortful compared to just about any other sport sedan of the same vintage. The (relatively) weighty controls, higher-than-average NVH, and firm ride make no sense until you start driving it as it's meant to be driven.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

Top
#3437680 - 07/27/14 06:54 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Southeast
My son's BMW Z4M is painful for me to drive for any period of time.

It's purposeful: an engine, two seats, and just enough sheetmetal to cover its short wheelbase.

However, I can't help smiling whenever I take the opportunity to drive it a few miles down the road.

Now my M6 on full sport plus settings is just as punishing.

But with either M car, it's all about going fast in the "Ultimate Driving Machine."
_________________________
'04 Mazda RX8 5W30 NAPA Syn
'10 &'11 Camry Edge 0W-20
'11 Landcruiser 5W20 PU
'13 BMW 550IX BMW 5W30
'08 BMW Z4M Coupe TWS 10W60
'13 BMW M6 BMW 5W30

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#3437728 - 07/27/14 07:40 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Awesome timing on that post. I just got back from the household of a friend whose lightweighted all-motor E46 M3 will have to be pried from his cold dead fingers.

The same household also includes an E39 M5, a beautiful all-motor 128i, an E46 330i ZHP, and an E91 328i, as well as a new Boxster and a 930 Carrera. This is the family that sold me my last car, an E36 M3 (which I owned at the time of the post you're responding to). It's basically a small monument to naturally aspirated, chassis-oriented, Bavarian-made sport sedans. In our extended circle of mutual friends, there is at least one more ZHP and more E46 and E9x M3s than I can count, as well as various other naturally aspirated M cars.

So, yeah, I feel like I know a thing or two about what makes BMW M cars great. In a nutshell, it's not about numbers or easy speed; it's about legit race car dynamics in a usable package. The main reason I no longer own a BMW M car is that I don't feel they take that formula far enough.

But you don't know me at all, so I can't blame you for being so dismissive. No worries.

Yes, there are a lot of active M3 enthusiasts online. The Internet can make just about any interest group look big. The fact remains that, to most people, the M3 is just another performance car that rides too hard, guzzles too much gas, and doesn't seem too impressive on paper. People buy the car for the status, or because they think it's fast, or because they're 17 and have too much money, or because they want something "nice" that'll still keep up with their buddy's Mustang. To those people, what really makes a naturally aspirated M3 great -- its throttle response, its high redline, its magical handling -- is completely unintelligible.

Why do you think the M3's competitors all have more torque and sloppier handling? Do you really think AMG and quattro couldn't hang if they wanted to, or could it be that most people would take low-end torque and a softer ride over genuine race car dynamics?

Why do you think it's essentially impossible to find an E46 M3 for sale in good condition? Is the car really that fragile, or are proper enthusiasts that rare?

Why do you think BMW's current model lineup is so annoyingly soft? Is BMW actively trying to drive away real enthusiasts, or is it following the more prevalent market trends?

Even in the enthusiast-laden online communities, there are hordes of people trying to cheap out on upkeep in ways that make you wonder why they bought an M3 in the first place. So many M3s ride on junk tires and have suspensions that are completely shot, and their owners are constantly trying to find a cheaper oil to run. Among the people who want to go fast, so many are terrified of the engine's best RPM range -- they think using 50% throttle and shifting at 6k is "racing." This is not something you'd expect to see if informed and passionate owners were any more than a tiny minority.

Yes, there are enthusiasts. Yes, they are passionate. Yes, they know their cars. They do not represent the majority of M3 owners, and they are essentially nonexistent in the grand scheme of the automotive market as a whole. They (we) are a subset of a subset of a subset of people who like performance cars, which itself is a minority in the general population. It hurts, but it's a truth that must be faced.

I agree with much of what you posted, but what's your point? My post wasn't about those issues, but rather I called you on your claim that an M3 will "punish" you if you don't drive it hard. It's a baseless claim and nothing you said convinces me otherwise.

I'm not sure where you're going about not owning a BMW M car because they aren't performance oriented enough. Why you driving an RX-8 then?

There are a lot of reasons why it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition. For one, many people blindly follow BMW's 15000 mi / 20000 km oci, which is double what it should be. (FWIW, my mechanic, who works on BMW, Porsche, MB, etc. considers new BMWs to be disposable because if people follow BMW's recommended maintenance intervals, the engines inevitably will become sludged up and dirty. It's well known that BMW isn't alone on this regard. The same thing applies to VAG.)

The other reason it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition is because the cars are becoming cheap enough for young drivers to purchase without knowing how expensive the cars are to own. They can't afford proper tires. They can't afford oil changes. Etc. The result is that cars owned by such people end up as beaters or get totaled. The same thing happened with E36s and E30s. Try finding either of them in good condition.

As for the direction BMW is going, it's irrelevant what I think. I assume BMW is doing what they perceive will result in the most profit and that they couldn't care less what enthusiasts or owners of older models think. I think it's fair to say that if they gave a sh*t, they would have addressed the oil, VANOS and subframe issues differently, as opposed to not all.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

Top
#3437755 - 07/27/14 08:02 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
The M3 does not "punish" you if you don't drive it hard.

It does in two ways:

1. Ever popped the valve cover on a mildly treated E46 M3? If you do, prepare to see varnish. They only stay clean with short OCIs and conscientious hard driving.

2. As docile as the M3 is compared to sports cars, it's jarring and effortful compared to just about any other sport sedan of the same vintage. The (relatively) weighty controls, higher-than-average NVH, and firm ride make no sense until you start driving it as it's meant to be driven.

If you don't regularly change the oil and properly warm up any car engine, it will end up sludged up. I thought this thread was about oil. What does the ride of an M3 have to do with oil?
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

Top
#3438203 - 07/28/14 08:44 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9237
Loc: PA
Probably safe to say we've reached some kind of limit, either on my ability to articulate my points or on your ability to see what I'm really saying. Or both.

It's not important to me to make you understand and agree with me, so I think we can agree to let your points stand.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

Top
#3440483 - 07/30/14 11:01 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: shDK]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 308
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.




Alfa Romeo spec it as well from memory for their 2.0L JTS engine

Top
#3440503 - 07/30/14 11:25 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25945
Loc: Michigan
I've got family in Europe. Their local Volvo dealer uses Castrol 10w-60 in their V40 T4 (2 liter turbo), as well. Not sure that it's actually recommended, but it's probably one of allowed viscosities. It's overkill, IMO, but it is what it is.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3440785 - 07/30/14 03:44 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: riggaz]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.




Alfa Romeo spec it as well from memory for their 2.0L JTS engine



Correct, as does Aston Martin.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

Top
#3440786 - 07/30/14 03:44 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: riggaz]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.




Alfa Romeo spec it as well from memory for their 2.0L JTS engine


As does Aston Martin. It's part of the reason you see non-BMW approved 10w60s, like Castrol Edge Sport, Mobil 1 Extended Life, Liqui-Moly GT1, etc.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

Top
#3440890 - 07/30/14 05:21 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: riggaz]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 334
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: shDK
10-60 is not what you Can call normal here in Europe. I believe bmw is the only maker who specs it.




Alfa Romeo spec it as well from memory for their 2.0L JTS engine

Basically they spec 10w60 for old Arese V6 and 16v TS petrols in severe use. Jts is spec'd 10w60 even gor normal use.
Selenia Racing is spec'd for Maserati 3200 also.
Latter 1.4 tjet and 1750 TBI are spec'd for C3 oil.


Edited by chrisri (07/30/14 05:34 PM)
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v (Mobil Super 3000x1 5w40)
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet (Selenia WR 5w40)
93 Ford Escort 1.3 HCS (HDO 5w30)

Top
#3442777 - 08/01/14 11:50 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Awesome timing on that post. I just got back from the household of a friend whose lightweighted all-motor E46 M3 will have to be pried from his cold dead fingers.

The same household also includes an E39 M5, a beautiful all-motor 128i, an E46 330i ZHP, and an E91 328i, as well as a new Boxster and a 930 Carrera. This is the family that sold me my last car, an E36 M3 (which I owned at the time of the post you're responding to). It's basically a small monument to naturally aspirated, chassis-oriented, Bavarian-made sport sedans. In our extended circle of mutual friends, there is at least one more ZHP and more E46 and E9x M3s than I can count, as well as various other naturally aspirated M cars.

So, yeah, I feel like I know a thing or two about what makes BMW M cars great. In a nutshell, it's not about numbers or easy speed; it's about legit race car dynamics in a usable package. The main reason I no longer own a BMW M car is that I don't feel they take that formula far enough.

But you don't know me at all, so I can't blame you for being so dismissive. No worries.

Yes, there are a lot of active M3 enthusiasts online. The Internet can make just about any interest group look big. The fact remains that, to most people, the M3 is just another performance car that rides too hard, guzzles too much gas, and doesn't seem too impressive on paper. People buy the car for the status, or because they think it's fast, or because they're 17 and have too much money, or because they want something "nice" that'll still keep up with their buddy's Mustang. To those people, what really makes a naturally aspirated M3 great -- its throttle response, its high redline, its magical handling -- is completely unintelligible.

Why do you think the M3's competitors all have more torque and sloppier handling? Do you really think AMG and quattro couldn't hang if they wanted to, or could it be that most people would take low-end torque and a softer ride over genuine race car dynamics?

Why do you think it's essentially impossible to find an E46 M3 for sale in good condition? Is the car really that fragile, or are proper enthusiasts that rare?

Why do you think BMW's current model lineup is so annoyingly soft? Is BMW actively trying to drive away real enthusiasts, or is it following the more prevalent market trends?

Even in the enthusiast-laden online communities, there are hordes of people trying to cheap out on upkeep in ways that make you wonder why they bought an M3 in the first place. So many M3s ride on junk tires and have suspensions that are completely shot, and their owners are constantly trying to find a cheaper oil to run. Among the people who want to go fast, so many are terrified of the engine's best RPM range -- they think using 50% throttle and shifting at 6k is "racing." This is not something you'd expect to see if informed and passionate owners were any more than a tiny minority.

Yes, there are enthusiasts. Yes, they are passionate. Yes, they know their cars. They do not represent the majority of M3 owners, and they are essentially nonexistent in the grand scheme of the automotive market as a whole. They (we) are a subset of a subset of a subset of people who like performance cars, which itself is a minority in the general population. It hurts, but it's a truth that must be faced.

I agree with much of what you posted, but what's your point? My post wasn't about those issues, but rather I called you on your claim that an M3 will "punish" you if you don't drive it hard. It's a baseless claim and nothing you said convinces me otherwise.

I'm not sure where you're going about not owning a BMW M car because they aren't performance oriented enough. Why you driving an RX-8 then?

There are a lot of reasons why it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition. For one, many people blindly follow BMW's 15000 mi / 20000 km oci, which is double what it should be. (FWIW, my mechanic, who works on BMW, Porsche, MB, etc. considers new BMWs to be disposable because if people follow BMW's recommended maintenance intervals, the engines inevitably will become sludged up and dirty. It's well known that BMW isn't alone on this regard. The same thing applies to VAG.)

The other reason it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition is because the cars are becoming cheap enough for young drivers to purchase without knowing how expensive the cars are to own. They can't afford proper tires. They can't afford oil changes. Etc. The result is that cars owned by such people end up as beaters or get totaled. The same thing happened with E36s and E30s. Try finding either of them in good condition.

As for the direction BMW is going, it's irrelevant what I think. I assume BMW is doing what they perceive will result in the most profit and that they couldn't care less what enthusiasts or owners of older models think. I think it's fair to say that if they gave a sh*t, they would have addressed the oil, VANOS and subframe issues differently, as opposed to not all.



Anothing thing we have to keep in mind that most people buying M cars these days are NOT driving them in a manor in which they were built to be driven. These are high-revving, high piston speed race motors, in essence. Speaking with a couple of the local shops really getting into S54 performance what they're finding is that when doing S54 work (especially turbo, swapping them into E36's, etc.) - first thing you do is pull the pan and roll new bearings into it, because they WILL be worn. These engines need to be warmed up gently before being driven, something 99% of drivers are not doing, and that is exacerbating the bearing issues. They need to be warmed up to full temp, then driven WOT. Max load, ran to redline. Every day. It's what they're designed to do.
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

Top
#3442856 - 08/01/14 01:11 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
I don't buy that argument. BMW knows these are street driven cars. There is no reason the car should need special treatment like that. I do agree that it was designed for hard driving, but that doesn't automatically mean it wasn't designed for around-town stuff.

Tens of thousands of M cars have seen 99.9% of their miles on the street without much complaint. Mine has done 57,000 total, and I'd bet that 56,750 of it is DD duties.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

Top
#3442888 - 08/01/14 01:32 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9237
Loc: PA
BMW also know that they make plenty of other cars that aren't much slower on the street and vastly more sensible in that environment. I'm especially thinking of CATERHAM's post about his encounter with a BMW engineer, who was confused when asked about oil choice for M3s that never see high oil temps. His response was something to the effect of "why not get a normal 3er then?"

More importantly though, I think "designed for"/"not designed for" is too black-and-white. It's a spectrum: Prius on one end, race car on the other, infinite shades in between. The E46 and E9x M3s are somewhere between Prius and race car, but farther from the "Prius" end than most street cars.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

Top
#3442942 - 08/01/14 02:41 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Awesome timing on that post. I just got back from the household of a friend whose lightweighted all-motor E46 M3 will have to be pried from his cold dead fingers.

The same household also includes an E39 M5, a beautiful all-motor 128i, an E46 330i ZHP, and an E91 328i, as well as a new Boxster and a 930 Carrera. This is the family that sold me my last car, an E36 M3 (which I owned at the time of the post you're responding to). It's basically a small monument to naturally aspirated, chassis-oriented, Bavarian-made sport sedans. In our extended circle of mutual friends, there is at least one more ZHP and more E46 and E9x M3s than I can count, as well as various other naturally aspirated M cars.

So, yeah, I feel like I know a thing or two about what makes BMW M cars great. In a nutshell, it's not about numbers or easy speed; it's about legit race car dynamics in a usable package. The main reason I no longer own a BMW M car is that I don't feel they take that formula far enough.

But you don't know me at all, so I can't blame you for being so dismissive. No worries.

Yes, there are a lot of active M3 enthusiasts online. The Internet can make just about any interest group look big. The fact remains that, to most people, the M3 is just another performance car that rides too hard, guzzles too much gas, and doesn't seem too impressive on paper. People buy the car for the status, or because they think it's fast, or because they're 17 and have too much money, or because they want something "nice" that'll still keep up with their buddy's Mustang. To those people, what really makes a naturally aspirated M3 great -- its throttle response, its high redline, its magical handling -- is completely unintelligible.

Why do you think the M3's competitors all have more torque and sloppier handling? Do you really think AMG and quattro couldn't hang if they wanted to, or could it be that most people would take low-end torque and a softer ride over genuine race car dynamics?

Why do you think it's essentially impossible to find an E46 M3 for sale in good condition? Is the car really that fragile, or are proper enthusiasts that rare?

Why do you think BMW's current model lineup is so annoyingly soft? Is BMW actively trying to drive away real enthusiasts, or is it following the more prevalent market trends?

Even in the enthusiast-laden online communities, there are hordes of people trying to cheap out on upkeep in ways that make you wonder why they bought an M3 in the first place. So many M3s ride on junk tires and have suspensions that are completely shot, and their owners are constantly trying to find a cheaper oil to run. Among the people who want to go fast, so many are terrified of the engine's best RPM range -- they think using 50% throttle and shifting at 6k is "racing." This is not something you'd expect to see if informed and passionate owners were any more than a tiny minority.

Yes, there are enthusiasts. Yes, they are passionate. Yes, they know their cars. They do not represent the majority of M3 owners, and they are essentially nonexistent in the grand scheme of the automotive market as a whole. They (we) are a subset of a subset of a subset of people who like performance cars, which itself is a minority in the general population. It hurts, but it's a truth that must be faced.

I agree with much of what you posted, but what's your point? My post wasn't about those issues, but rather I called you on your claim that an M3 will "punish" you if you don't drive it hard. It's a baseless claim and nothing you said convinces me otherwise.

I'm not sure where you're going about not owning a BMW M car because they aren't performance oriented enough. Why you driving an RX-8 then?

There are a lot of reasons why it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition. For one, many people blindly follow BMW's 15000 mi / 20000 km oci, which is double what it should be. (FWIW, my mechanic, who works on BMW, Porsche, MB, etc. considers new BMWs to be disposable because if people follow BMW's recommended maintenance intervals, the engines inevitably will become sludged up and dirty. It's well known that BMW isn't alone on this regard. The same thing applies to VAG.)

The other reason it's so hard to find an M3 in good condition is because the cars are becoming cheap enough for young drivers to purchase without knowing how expensive the cars are to own. They can't afford proper tires. They can't afford oil changes. Etc. The result is that cars owned by such people end up as beaters or get totaled. The same thing happened with E36s and E30s. Try finding either of them in good condition.

As for the direction BMW is going, it's irrelevant what I think. I assume BMW is doing what they perceive will result in the most profit and that they couldn't care less what enthusiasts or owners of older models think. I think it's fair to say that if they gave a sh*t, they would have addressed the oil, VANOS and subframe issues differently, as opposed to not all.



Anothing thing we have to keep in mind that most people buying M cars these days are NOT driving them in a manor in which they were built to be driven. These are high-revving, high piston speed race motors, in essence. Speaking with a couple of the local shops really getting into S54 performance what they're finding is that when doing S54 work (especially turbo, swapping them into E36's, etc.) - first thing you do is pull the pan and roll new bearings into it, because they WILL be worn. These engines need to be warmed up gently before being driven, something 99% of drivers are not doing, and that is exacerbating the bearing issues. They need to be warmed up to full temp, then driven WOT. Max load, ran to redline. Every day. It's what they're designed to do.

There are plenty of threads over on M3F about rod bearings. They do wear, but typically it's gradual wear. It's also easy to diagnose with an oil analysis. S54 engines do need to be warmed up gently, which is why they have the temperature varying redline, but I don't know where you get the idea that they "need" to be redlined every day. They simply need to be warmed up completely, but that is no different from any other engine. If you take any car that is driven frequently without being warmed up and not given regular oil changes, it will have deposits and sludge inside the engine. There are also plenty of examples of E46 M3 valve cover deposits. The only S54 engines that have clean valve covers are the ones that get frequent oil changes.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

Top
#3442945 - 08/01/14 02:45 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW also know that they make plenty of other cars that aren't much slower on the street and vastly more sensible in that environment. I'm especially thinking of CATERHAM's post about his encounter with a BMW engineer, who was confused when asked about oil choice for M3s that never see high oil temps. His response was something to the effect of "why not get a normal 3er then?"

More importantly though, I think "designed for"/"not designed for" is too black-and-white. It's a spectrum: Prius on one end, race car on the other, infinite shades in between. The E46 and E9x M3s are somewhere between Prius and race car, but farther from the "Prius" end than most street cars.

If that's the case, then what's your explanation for the N54/N55 engines, which are regular engines designed for the range of BMW vehicles. If they are not given more than BMW recommended oil changes, they will sludge up. Same for audi engines.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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