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#3149949 - 10/09/13 07:39 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1326
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: KenO
I'll agree with pretty much everything you've said. Unfortunately, as we've both stated before, early S54's had rod bearing failure. It sucks, it was a factory problem, and it was recalled. Later engines didn't have this issue. Regardless of the rod bearing issues - BMW's need to be beaten on. Period. M cars especially so. They're maintenance intensive. But, for the long-haul owner - as Doug Hillary pointed out, can and will outlast most things on the road - even when driven to the extremes, which is what they were built for. Built to be able to be taken to the track, run HPDE's, win races, and drive to work on Monday if necessary.


+1. I keep telling new BMW diesel owners (335d) that these cars are made to run. Trying to hyper-mile in city only traffic is asking for trouble. In fact it's probably why BMW has a tough sled in the US. The avg US owner lives in the city and the cars just idle along in rush hour for most of their lives.
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'15 435i - Factory fill.
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#3150105 - 10/09/13 11:06 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
Geoff Offline


Registered: 05/16/04
Posts: 547
Loc: Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.


^ Sorry but I don't think that is correct. My oil temps can jump to 220-240F with spirited driving. Heck, our rental Jeep Cherokee regularly hit oil temps of 245F (it had a digital readout) just driving conservatively through the mountains in CO.
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#3150248 - 10/09/13 01:28 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Geoff]
CATERHAM Online   content


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9705
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Geoff
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.


^ Sorry but I don't think that is correct. My oil temps can jump to 220-240F with spirited driving. Heck, our rental Jeep Cherokee regularly hit oil temps of 245F (it had a digital readout) just driving conservatively through the mountains in CO.

Are you talking about an M series BMW? No.
AFAIK dparm has yet to see oil temp's approaching 212F yet in his M3 which is why he mentioned he will report back after his up coming track day.
OVERKILL has never see oil temp's over 212F in his M5 and that including some hot laps at Mosport.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3150259 - 10/09/13 01:42 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Are you talking about an M series BMW? No.
AFAIK dparm has yet to see oil temp's approaching 212F yet in his M3 which is why he mentioned he will report back after his up coming track day.
OVERKILL has never see oil temp's over 212F in his M5 and that including some hot laps at Mosport.


You should submit those results to the BMW AG and GM engineering departments and tell them to get on the ball wink
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#3150273 - 10/09/13 01:58 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12555
Loc: Chicago, IL
Even under repeated & prolonged WOT (on the street), I have not seen the oil temp needle swing past the 210 F region in my car. I will report back after my track time this coming Friday.

FWIW, it's a BMW-sanctioned track event at Autobahn Country Club. Track time, autocross time, and the chance to drive the new M5 & M6.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3150807 - 10/09/13 11:20 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Nice to see they've address oil temp issues, finally. I know E36's (modded ones, of course) can see oil temps in the 230-240*F range. Still not in the realm of oil cooler territory, but hot nonetheless, and certainly requiring good oil. I think thats part of the reason so many E36's get lifter tick, combination of oil that can't handle the heat, and the poor oilpan baffling they had.
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

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#3151551 - 10/10/13 05:41 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
CATERHAM Online   content


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9705
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: dparm
Even under repeated & prolonged WOT (on the street), I have not seen the oil temp needle swing past the 210 F region in my car. I will report back after my track time this coming Friday.

FWIW, it's a BMW-sanctioned track event at Autobahn Country Club. Track time, autocross time, and the chance to drive the new M5 & M6.

Cool.

I was invited a couple of weeks ago by Jaguar/Land Rover to try out the various new F-Type models on the big track at Mosport.
Those corporate events are fun.
Impressive cars and while I'm not partial to automatic gearboxes especially in a two seater sportscar (actually it's deal breaker for me) the ZF 8-speed behaved just like a DCT even including blipping the throttle on downshifts in manual mode.
Both the 340 hp and 380 hp SC V6s and 495 hp SC V8 sounded great.
The V8 isn't noticeably faster than the S model V6 until your doing well over 100 mph. For street use I'd stick with the V6 and save the $25,000 premium.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3151665 - 10/10/13 07:19 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12555
Loc: Chicago, IL
Yep, the sweet spot with the F-Type seems to be the V6 S. That ZF gearbox is in a ton of cars and is a true benchmark automatic trans. Great selection for that car as it is, after all, a grand tourer. Love the way that car looks, too.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3152054 - 10/11/13 07:53 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
CSBM5 Offline


Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 2
Loc: NC
Originally Posted By: dparm
I don't find the S65 to be lacking in torque at all. People who say that are the ones who haven't driven them for more than a few minutes.

If anything, I think the new M3/4, M5, and M6 are becoming less special. Their motors are more pedestrian and docile than before, which makes them more appealing to a wider audience. The older ones, as you said, were quite high strung and a bit crazy for a street car. The E46 and E9x M3s (along with the E60 M5 and E61 M6) really only appealed to people serious about performance.


I agree pretty much. It's all relative though. When I back to back drive my S62 powered M5 versus the S65 M3, that gut hit punch at low-mid rpms is the first thing you notice in the M5. The second thing you notice is how quickly you have to pay attention to the rev limit in the M5 (after driving the M3) since that wicked high end S65 rush from 6500-8300 rpms isn't there. smile

Re comments on people not knowing or able to maintain these cars properly... I've been driving, tracking and racing BMWs since 1974, so I guess that puts me in a different, and likely an odd and sick, group of owners. If you saw the folders of records I have for the M5 (owned for 11 years now), S4 (187k miles now, original turbos still, running great, using 0W40 Mobil 1 forever), 850R (170k miles, owned since new almost 18 years ago)...I don't even want to look at size of them.

Funny thing. The 2011.5 E90 M3 will be three years old next month, and is at 23k miles now. It has never had any issue of any sort. Zero warranty claims since new. Just regular 6k mile interval TWS changes. Fortunately its latest oil report was stellar (given the fear mongering going on over on m3post). Similarly, my E90 330i we ordered and bought new in Feb 06 now has 119k miles, and it has been the most reliable I've owned in almost 40 years of driving. Since the warranty ran out at 50k miles, I've replaced a door lock actuator, oil filter housing gasket and also changed the valve cover gasket when replacing the spark plugs near 100k miles. This little sucker just keeps running fine with regular maintenance (0W40 M1 since end of warranty BMW 5W30 changes every 7-8k miles). All of my cars are 6MT except the Volvo which only came with a slushbox in the US...


Edited by CSBM5 (10/11/13 07:53 AM)
_________________________
2011.5 BMW E90 M3
2001 BMW M5
2006 BMW E90 330i
2001 Audi S4
1996 Volvo 850R wagon (855R)

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#3152153 - 10/11/13 09:43 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CSBM5]
MCompact Offline


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1817
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By: CSBM5

Re comments on people not knowing or able to maintain these cars properly... I've been driving, tracking and racing BMWs since 1974, so I guess that puts me in a different, and likely an odd and sick, group of owners. If you saw the folders of records I have for the M5 (owned for 11 years now), S4 (187k miles now, original turbos still, running great, using 0W40 Mobil 1 forever), 850R (170k miles, owned since new almost 18 years ago)...I don't even want to look at size of them.

Funny thing. The 2011.5 E90 M3 will be three years old next month, and is at 23k miles now. It has never had any issue of any sort. Zero warranty claims since new. Just regular 6k mile interval TWS changes. Fortunately its latest oil report was stellar (given the fear mongering going on over on m3post). Similarly, my E90 330i we ordered and bought new in Feb 06 now has 119k miles, and it has been the most reliable I've owned in almost 40 years of driving. Since the warranty ran out at 50k miles, I've replaced a door lock actuator, oil filter housing gasket and also changed the valve cover gasket when replacing the spark plugs near 100k miles. This little sucker just keeps running fine with regular maintenance (0W40 M1 since end of warranty BMW 5W30 changes every 7-8k miles). All of my cars are 6MT except the Volvo which only came with a slushbox in the US...


Your experience pretty much mirrors mine. With the exception of a flakey transfer case on the X3 at over 130k miles, my last three BMWs have had no serious issues- and few minor problems(unlike my MS3, which required a couple of thousand dollars worth of warranty repairs prior to 60k miles).
_________________________
Mine:
1995 318ti Club Sport
1975 2002A
2007 Mazdaspeed3
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1996 Speed Triple

Hers:
2009 328i

Son's
2004 X3 2.5

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#3152155 - 10/11/13 09:45 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CSBM5]
330indy Offline


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 74
Loc: Indianapolis
CSBM5:
Thanks for the encouraging post!
I have a 2002 330i 5 speed (M54B30) and '13 M3 (S65), and they run so well.
I run conservative OCIs (<5k) but sleep well at night when reading the end of the world rod bearing posts at M3post.
There are some huge egos and sadly contentious experts over there and I don't like going there anymore because it is so confounding.
I like Redline 5w40 for the M54, and will stay with TWS while the M is in warranty, but will like I said shorten those OCIs due to time rather than mileage.
I like BITOG.
Lots of helpful knowledgeable people here....


Edited by 330indy (10/11/13 09:46 AM)

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#3152420 - 10/11/13 01:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12555
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: dparm
Even under repeated & prolonged WOT (on the street), I have not seen the oil temp needle swing past the 210 F region in my car. I will report back after my track time this coming Friday.

FWIW, it's a BMW-sanctioned track event at Autobahn Country Club. Track time, autocross time, and the chance to drive the new M5 & M6.



So even after 20 minutes of lapping on the north course (which has two straightaways of 1000+ ft), my oil temps never got north of 250 F.

Whereas the around-town temp is 210ish, the needle was mostly floating around 230-240, and nudged towards 250 for a brief period.

This was a bone-stock M3 sedan with the latest integration (ECU software) and the OEM Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3437498 - 07/27/14 03:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
As an aside, I think what we're seeing in this thread explains two things quite well:

1. Why there is no future for engines like those in the E46 M3 and E92 M3, and
2. Why it's essentially impossible to find a reliable example of either of those cars on the used market.

Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks. frown

I realize this is an old thread, but your sweeping comments are not accurate. There are many people who appreciate these engines and take very good care of them. If you took the time to visit M3Forum, M3Post or other related forum, you would see that. There are many spirited discussions about oil, rod bearings and vanos (not to mention subframes and SMG) for no other reason than because people care about them. I recognize my E46 M3 is not for everyone, and I wish BMW made some different design decisions, but the car is what it is and I enjoy it for what it is. Until you've driven one of these cars, you won't get it.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
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#3437615 - 07/27/14 05:54 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Most people think of an M3 as a faster 3-Series. People buy it not because they drive fast enough to need it, but because they want the feeling that they could drive it fast if they wanted to. There's the first problem. The E46 and E9x M3s are not just cars that can go fast. They are cars that will punish you if you don't go fast.

Moreover, "fast" for these cars is WAY beyond what most people understand. Most people think an occasional trip to 6,000 RPM is "beating on the car." An E46 or E9x M3 is barely awake under that kind of usage. In fact, it's actually worse to drive than a normal 3-Series because it's less comfortable and not very torquey. If you want to get anything out of owning an S54 or S65 -- not to mention if you want it to last -- you have to be willing to put the gas pedal straight to the floor and use 100% of the 8k+ RPM tach every time you drive. Yes, that kind of driving obviously involves endless track time and/or felony speeding. Believe me, I sympathize on that point. Unfortunately, the car doesn't.

That's what I mean by my comment about what people value. Almost nobody makes any use of the attributes that make the M3 what it is.


On maintenance: First of all, no one should ever purchase a car with an 8k+ RPM engine and expect a painless ownership experience. That should simply go without saying. This doesn't excuse the rod bearing issues on early S54s, but that's not much of an issue after 2002 -- which, to be completely honest, should blow anyone's mind.

One thing that people get wrong is that these cars have to be maintained proactively. You can't just wait for something to break; you have to know the common failure points and address them well in advance. Another problem is that warm-up, and proper driving when warm, are critical (most people do one or both of thse incorrectly). BMW's oil specs confuse most people (e.g. it's EXTREMLY common to think that any old synthetic 5w-30 or 10w-60 will do). It's not as bad as, say, owning a Ferrari, but it's still more work than most cars. I'm sure there are a lot of people that try their level best, but most simply treat it like a normal upscale car and/or simply have no idea about certain things.


As much as I HATE that BMW is moving to turbocharged engines, I do have to admit that that change makes sense. The new M engines are so much less exotic than the old ones, and they deliver performance in a way that is more accessible to more people.

Honestly, I have no idea where you get this from. Have you ever driven one? The M3 does not "punish" you if you don't drive it hard. An E46 M3 is relatively docile unless / until you wring its neck. I've driven an E92 with DCT and it was basically the same thing. I had an E36 328is before my E46 M3. The E46 M3 is more visceral and "in your face" than the E36 328is was. The M3 is faster, stiffer, quicker, louder, etc. The E36 is soft and cushy by comparison. However, aside from the stiffer ride and more "visceral" driving experience, what I notice about an E46 M3 is the cantankerous M6 shifter / transmission. It's terrible, but the engine has more than enough torque that you don't have to wind it up to get around. It's certainly not as buzzy and gutless down low as an S2000. It's just that you can wind it up and it's perfectly happy when you do. I often shift mine at 4-5k rpms just driving normally. As much as I enjoy redlining it, I rarely do because to do that safely requires a lot of room and I don't want the speeding tickets. I do agree that they need to be maintained (e.g., frequent oil changes, as well as valve adjustment).
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3437644 - 07/27/14 06:29 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9284
Loc: PA
Awesome timing on those accusations of ignorance. I just got back from the household of a friend whose lightweighted all-motor E46 M3 will have to be pried from his cold dead fingers.

The same household also includes an E39 M5, a beautiful all-motor 128i, an E46 330i ZHP, and an E91 328i, as well as a new Boxster and a 930 Carrera. This is the family that sold me my last car, an E36 M3 (which I owned at the time of the post you're responding to). It's basically a small monument to naturally aspirated, chassis-oriented, Bavarian-made sport sedans. In our extended circle of mutual friends, there is at least one more ZHP and more E46 and E9x M3s than I can count, as well as various other naturally aspirated M cars.

So, yeah, I feel like I know a thing or two about what makes BMW M cars great. In a nutshell, it's not about numbers or easy speed; it's about legit race car dynamics in a usable package. The main reason I no longer own a BMW M car is that I don't feel they take that formula far enough.

But you don't know me at all, so I can't blame you for being so dismissive. No worries.

Yes, there are a lot of active M3 enthusiasts online. The Internet can make just about any interest group look big. The fact remains that, to most people, the M3 is just another performance car that rides too hard, guzzles too much gas, and doesn't seem too impressive on paper. People buy the car for the status, or because they think it's fast, or because they're 17 and have too much money, or because they want something "nice" that'll still keep up with their buddy's Mustang. To those people, what really makes a naturally aspirated M3 great -- its throttle response, its high redline, its magical handling -- is completely unintelligible.

Why do you think the M3's competitors all have more torque and sloppier handling? Do you really think AMG and quattro couldn't hang if they wanted to, or could it be that most people would take low-end torque and a softer ride over genuine race car dynamics?

Why do you think it's essentially impossible to find an E46 M3 for sale in good condition? Is the car really that fragile, or are proper enthusiasts that rare?

Why do you think BMW's current model lineup is so annoyingly soft? Is BMW actively trying to drive away real enthusiasts, or is it following the more prevalent market trends?

Even in the enthusiast-laden online communities, there are hordes of people trying to cheap out on upkeep in ways that make you wonder why they bought an M3 in the first place. So many M3s ride on junk tires and have suspensions that are completely shot, and their owners are constantly trying to find a cheaper oil to run. Among the people who want to go fast, so many are terrified of the engine's best RPM range -- they think using 50% throttle and shifting at 6k is "racing." This is not something you'd expect to see if informed and passionate owners were any more than a tiny minority.

Yes, there are enthusiasts. Yes, they are passionate. Yes, they know their cars. They do not represent the majority of M3 owners, and they are essentially nonexistent in the grand scheme of the automotive market as a whole. They (we) are a subset of a subset of a subset of people who like performance cars, which itself is a minority in the general population. It hurts, but it's a truth that must be faced.
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