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#3148761 - 10/08/13 04:24 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
miro Offline


Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 65
Loc: the Netherlands
It is simple arthritics. :-)
USA Old man riding with 60mph 5w30.
Europe/Germany BMW riding with 120mph 10w60 = 2x 5w30

Now serious.
As already mentioned 10w60 especially castrol is used in race conditions where oil temperature is higher than that can be experienced by average European driver. I wouldn't even try to compare with average US driver.
Castrol 10w60 TDS gives viscosity not only at T=40 and 100 degree Celsius. but also at 150/160
In such race conditions 10w60 is even tiner that 5w30 used by average US driver.
BTW BMW is not the only one. Some Alpha Romeo are using too.

So most race cars are using this thin 10w60 oils.
I read in this forum that experts here advice to use 0w20 in Ferrari. I think that they are right. In such mild condition/low oil temperature/ the average ferrari US driver will take the advantages of 0w20. However racer will go with recomended 15w50 or even 10w60





Edited by miro (10/08/13 04:38 AM)

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#3148767 - 10/08/13 04:54 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: miro]
miro Offline


Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 65
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: miro
It is simple arthritics. :-)
USA Old man riding with 60mph 5w30.
Europe/Germany BMW riding with 120mph 10w60 = 2x 5w30

Now serious.
As already mentioned 10w60 especially castrol is used in race conditions where oil temperature is higher than that can be experienced by average European driver. I wouldn't even try to compare with average US driver.
Castrol 10w60 TDS gives viscosity not only at T=40 and 100 degree Celsius. but also at 150/160
In such race conditions 10w60 is even tiner that 5w30 used by average US driver.
BTW BMW is not the only one. Some Alpha Romeo are using too.

So most race cars are using this thin 10w60 oils.
I read in this forum that experts here advice to use 0w20 in Ferrari. I think that they are right. In such mild condition/low oil temperature/ the average ferrari US driver will take the advantages of 0w20. However racer will go with recomended 15w50 or even 10w60






For more info look at Mr. Hass articles - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/


Edited by miro (10/08/13 04:55 AM)

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#3148976 - 10/08/13 09:50 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12539
Loc: Chicago, IL
Audi also requires this exact same 10w60 for the R8 GT, which is a very high-strung V10. However, this motor (found in the Gallardo) is normally allowed to run Shell Helix/Pennzoil Ultra 5w40.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3149335 - 10/08/13 02:42 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
330indy Offline


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 72
Loc: Indianapolis
Redline 5w-40 or 10w60 for e92 M3, no track use
Car will be under warranty until July 2017 so I will probably stick to 10w60 for a while

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#3149339 - 10/08/13 02:46 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: 330indy]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26391
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: 330indy
Redline 5w-40 or 10w60 for e92 M3, no track use
Car will be under warranty until July 2017 so I will probably stick to 10w60 for a while


Redline 10w-60 is WAY heavier than BMW/Castrol 10w-60 BTW.
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#3149409 - 10/08/13 04:12 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: 330indy]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9218
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: 330indy
Redline 5w-40 or 10w60 for e92 M3, no track use
Car will be under warranty until July 2017 so I will probably stick to 10w60 for a while

In addition to what OVERK1LL said, Red Line 10w-60 carries exactly zero third-party certifications and likely wouldn't impress BMW in the event of a warranty claim. Just FYI.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3149415 - 10/08/13 04:18 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9218
Loc: PA
As an aside, I think what we're seeing in this thread explains two things quite well:

1. Why there is no future for engines like those in the E46 M3 and E92 M3, and
2. Why it's essentially impossible to find a reliable example of either of those cars on the used market.

Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks. frown
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3149446 - 10/08/13 05:02 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12539
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks. frown



Huh?
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3149455 - 10/08/13 05:11 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4857
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
doodfood - You are correct:

"Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks"

I've owned 18 German cars (2 BMWs) - 4 were purchased new. I've also had the unlimited use of 5 new Benzes as Company supplied vehicles! The cars were variously owned in New Zealand, Australia, Denmark and England

I had two roadside failures that warranted tilt-tray uplift - one a Porsche Boxster (separator) and the other a new Benz 280E Wagon (FI)!

Of the 13 used cars purchased about 8 required substantial works to bring them up to my standard. The others had been treated basically as they should have been. The best of all were those serviced by private workshops that has car enthusiast Owners!

German auto design philosophy dictates complex vehicle technologies (both car and heavy trucks too). That said, if treated and serviced properly, with Factory updates if needed, they have durability levels beyond most others. Sadly most Owners can't afford the cost involved!!

Sheer joy of driving is their high point - Oh how I miss my Porsche 928 S4.........!!
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3149564 - 10/08/13 07:00 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
ammolab Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 544
Loc: Ruidoso, NM USA
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
As an aside, I think what we're seeing in this thread explains two things quite well:

1. Why there is no future for engines like those in the E46 M3 and E92 M3, and
2. Why it's essentially impossible to find a reliable example of either of those cars on the used market.

Nobody -- not even the people who bought those cars -- values what makes them special or understands how to take care of them. To be fair, both of those things are kind of arcane, so I guess people in general can't be blamed. It just sucks. frown


"Nobody?"...there are PLENTY of forums and members thereof that attempt to understand how to care for them and surely value their cars.

I replaced my Rod bearings at 60,000 miles of normal driving and am sure I would not have gone 60,000 miles of track time on that set of OEM bearings. Many S54 engines failed early with track time, enthusiastic driving is not a mechanical cure!
_________________________
2009 Honda CR-V
2002 BMW M Coupe
2011 BMW R1200R
1986 BMW K75C
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L

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#3149789 - 10/08/13 10:24 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9218
Loc: PA
Most people think of an M3 as a faster 3-Series. People buy it not because they drive fast enough to need it, but because they want the feeling that they could drive it fast if they wanted to. There's the first problem. The E46 and E9x M3s are not just cars that can go fast. They are cars that will punish you if you don't go fast.

Moreover, "fast" for these cars is WAY beyond what most people understand. Most people think an occasional trip to 6,000 RPM is "beating on the car." An E46 or E9x M3 is barely awake under that kind of usage. In fact, it's actually worse to drive than a normal 3-Series because it's less comfortable and not very torquey. If you want to get anything out of owning an S54 or S65 -- not to mention if you want it to last -- you have to be willing to put the gas pedal straight to the floor and use 100% of the 8k+ RPM tach every time you drive. Yes, that kind of driving obviously involves endless track time and/or felony speeding. Believe me, I sympathize on that point. Unfortunately, the car doesn't.

That's what I mean by my comment about what people value. Almost nobody makes any use of the attributes that make the M3 what it is.


On maintenance: First of all, no one should ever purchase a car with an 8k+ RPM engine and expect a painless ownership experience. That should simply go without saying. This doesn't excuse the rod bearing issues on early S54s, but that's not much of an issue after 2002 -- which, to be completely honest, should blow anyone's mind.

One thing that people get wrong is that these cars have to be maintained proactively. You can't just wait for something to break; you have to know the common failure points and address them well in advance. Another problem is that warm-up, and proper driving when warm, are critical (most people do one or both of thse incorrectly). BMW's oil specs confuse most people (e.g. it's EXTREMLY common to think that any old synthetic 5w-30 or 10w-60 will do). It's not as bad as, say, owning a Ferrari, but it's still more work than most cars. I'm sure there are a lot of people that try their level best, but most simply treat it like a normal upscale car and/or simply have no idea about certain things.


As much as I HATE that BMW is moving to turbocharged engines, I do have to admit that that change makes sense. The new M engines are so much less exotic than the old ones, and they deliver performance in a way that is more accessible to more people.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3149801 - 10/08/13 10:41 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: ammolab]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9218
Loc: PA
A further point about people making good faith efforts to learn how to care for their cars:

The problem there isn't that they're not trying. It's that bad and incomplete information still flies around like mosquitos at a nudist colony in the Everglades, and it can be really hard to discern who does and doesn't know what they're talking about.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3149845 - 10/09/13 12:20 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
I'll agree with pretty much everything you've said. Unfortunately, as we've both stated before, early S54's had rod bearing failure. It sucks, it was a factory problem, and it was recalled. Later engines didn't have this issue. Regardless of the rod bearing issues - BMW's need to be beaten on. Period. M cars especially so. They're maintenance intensive. But, for the long-haul owner - as Doug Hillary pointed out, can and will outlast most things on the road - even when driven to the extremes, which is what they were built for. Built to be able to be taken to the track, run HPDE's, win races, and drive to work on Monday if necessary.


If you don't plan to track it - should probably not be buying an M car. FWIW, The E36/Z3 was NOT a real M car. The E36 M3 was the exact same chassis as any other 3 series, no differences whatsoever. Minor bolt-on upgrades (larger rear wheel bearing & trailing arm, bigger brake), and a bored/stroked version of the same low-revving engine, for the US market at least. We got [censored] HARD on that one. At least Europe still got the good motor in the E36. The Z3 was an afterthought. I have a couple friends that have done internships in Munich while in school for engineering and have spoken to people who were on the Z3 design team. They were never pleased with how that car turned out and left the factory. The Z4 is head and shoulders a worlds better car, in every single way.


Edited by KenO (10/09/13 12:21 AM)
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
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1998 BMW 528i

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#3149853 - 10/09/13 12:45 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4857
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
KenO - Correct about the Z3. I had a near new 2.8 - lovely engine and gearbox - a very average chassis and handling! But typically it was quite a good high speed cruiser

The Boxster left it for dead all over however!
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3149943 - 10/09/13 07:34 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12539
Loc: Chicago, IL
I don't find the S65 to be lacking in torque at all. People who say that are the ones who haven't driven them for more than a few minutes.

If anything, I think the new M3/4, M5, and M6 are becoming less special. Their motors are more pedestrian and docile than before, which makes them more appealing to a wider audience. The older ones, as you said, were quite high strung and a bit crazy for a street car. The E46 and E9x M3s (along with the E60 M5 and E61 M6) really only appealed to people serious about performance.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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