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#3145412 - 10/04/13 08:35 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Leonardo629 Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 227
Loc: So. Cal
It's common knowledge that all the new turbo M cars are spec'ed regular 5W30 Castrol oil, Mobil 1 0W40 too!

Lots of M3 V8 engines have failed despite 10W60 being used as the only fill, and looks like insufficient crankshaft bearing clearance has to do with it, it's one of the hottest topics at m3post.com.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838


Edited by Leonardo629 (10/04/13 08:37 PM)
_________________________
2013 Accord EX-L --> TGMO 0W20
2013 E92 M3 --> M1 0W40

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#3145957 - 10/05/13 02:54 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Leonardo629]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
It's common knowledge that all the new turbo M cars are spec'ed regular 5W30 Castrol oil, Mobil 1 0W40 too!

Lots of M3 V8 engines have failed despite 10W60 being used as the only fill, and looks like insufficient crankshaft bearing clearance has to do with it, it's one of the hottest topics at m3post.com.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838



I wouldn't say lots...it seems to only hit the very early ones.

Anyways, I have a BMW EVP warranty out to early 2017/100k, so if it happens, it happens.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3147906 - 10/07/13 01:46 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as well.

More recently, BMW's M cars stopped coming with high-revving naturally aspirated engines, and gradually switched to lower-revving turbocharged engines. With that change, they switched back to the 5w-30.

As for why any BMW engines ever used the 10w-60, oil temperatures are probably the main reason. BMW M cars are designed to run on race tracks all day, even in the hottest temperatures. In those conditions, oil temps on the high-RPM engines can exceed 300º F. It's crucially important to have an oil that doesn't thin out too much at those temps. Also, as I said earlier, the specific 10w-60 that BMW uses is a custom-made product, so it has (supposedly) the perfect blend of base stocks and additives for the cars that spec it.



Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then.


One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.


Edited by KenO (10/07/13 01:54 PM)
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

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#3147939 - 10/07/13 02:05 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9225
Loc: PA
TWS 10w-60 did emerge from a long line of development starting in the '70s IIRC. This is according to BITOG's own Doug Hillary. It wasn't introduced for road cars until the E46 M3.

Point taken on the long-standing partnership between Castrol and BMW. My understanding is that the partnership got closer around the year 2000.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3147943 - 10/07/13 02:12 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4864
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
KenO - you said this:

"Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then."

I have some knowledge of this. The forerunner of the original ester based 10W-60 was in fact Castrol Formula R synthetic 15W-50 (API SE). Red in colour and with the distinctive "Castrol R ester" exhaust aroma it was available outside of Germany in the 1970s. I field tested R in a wide variety of petrol/diesel engines

The original German development team for Formula R are now dead. According to my Castrol (BMW engine development team) contacts at the 24hr at the Nurburgring in 2010 I may be the last man standing with such product knowledge - I must be old!!!!



Edited by Doug Hillary (10/07/13 02:13 PM)
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3147964 - 10/07/13 02:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
KenO - you said this:

"Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then."

I have some knowledge of this. The forerunner of the original ester based 10W-60 was in fact Castrol Formula R synthetic 15W-50 (API SE). Red in colour and with the distinctive "Castrol R ester" exhaust aroma it was available outside of Germany in the 1970s. I field tested R in a wide variety of petrol/diesel engines

The original German development team for Formula R are now dead. According to my Castrol (BMW engine development team) contacts at the 24hr at the Nurburgring in 2010 I may be the last man standing with such product knowledge - I must be old!!!!




There he is! Thanks for the insight! Was BMW partnered with Castrol on the 10W-60 program in earlier years as well?? It was used in some of the BMW Group B, M1, and other racecars, wasn't it??
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

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#3148080 - 10/07/13 04:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4864
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
KenO - The BMW Castrol collaboration probably commenced seriously during the early-mid 1990s.

As I understand it the surviving 10W-60 formulation was commandeered by BMW. From 1999 just before BP took over Castrol the deal with BMW was in operation and was later confirmed by the new BP-Castrol organisation

Of course BMW also use third party organisations to explore various engine technologies - Castrol is involved with these developments

Castrol was a very strong supplier to German Industry in the 1930s and this was the period when many synthetic lubricant formulations were tried and tested - by Castrol and Shell in Germany and some other German lubricant Manufacturers

Most German vehicle Manufacturers have more that on source of FF lubricant supply, most have more than one Technical collaboration arrangement

Today BP-Castrol have alliances with a number of Vehicle/Engine Manufacturers

Perhaps the most enlightening (from my perspective) was the R20 synthetic race lubricant developed (with Mercedes-Benz) for use the Mercedes-Benz race cars during the 1950s
I have a long period of familiarity with these vehicles

My brother raced motorbikes so I was brought up with the smell of Castrol R from about 10 years of age
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3148113 - 10/07/13 04:56 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9616
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Doug you're not getting old, you've just got a great memory!

If that original Castrol Formula R Synthetic 15W-50 (a castor oil/syn blend I presume) was still available I'd be using it in my Europa for the aroma alone!

I don't know of any formulator that is using veg' oils to make PCMOs that is using castor oil. I do know that there are some two stroke oils that are still castor and castor/syn based.
My memory of using Castrol R was that it wasn't miscible with mineral oil and even didn't mix well in gasoline; would settle out if not regularly agitated.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3148205 - 10/07/13 06:14 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: KenO]
ammolab Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 546
Loc: Ruidoso, NM USA
Originally Posted By: KenO
[quote=d00df00d]Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.


My S54 has a redline short of 8000RPM and warm up procedures were always followed. Using TWS and had to change Rod bearings at 60,000 miles of normal ( not track day ) driving.

Think I would have done better on 5W-30? Should I use it now?
_________________________
2009 Honda CR-V
2002 BMW M Coupe
2011 BMW R1200R
1986 BMW K75C
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L

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#3148228 - 10/07/13 06:28 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: ammolab]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9225
Loc: PA
"Normal driving" is one of the worst things you can do with an S54, no matter how gently you warm it up.

If you're not going to drive it as it was meant to be driven, switching to a BMW-approved 5w-30 might help.

Again, make sure it meets the right specs per BMW. Don't just pick up any synthetic 5w-30 and expect it to work -- most won't.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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#3148231 - 10/07/13 06:33 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
KenO Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 1174
Loc: Auburn, GA
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: KenO
[quote=d00df00d]Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.


My S54 has a redline short of 8000RPM and warm up procedures were always followed. Using TWS and had to change Rod bearings at 60,000 miles of normal ( not track day ) driving.

Think I would have done better on 5W-30? Should I use it now?



What year S54 did you have by chance? Early cars were going to fail no matter what. I've heard a few claims, from fuel dilution (all S54 cars that got bearing recalls had their PCM's reprogrammed at the same time), to wrong oil, to improper bearing specs or manufacturer processes for the bearings themselves.


Originally Posted By: d00df00d
"Normal driving" is one of the worst things you can do with an S54, no matter how gently you warm it up.

If you're not going to drive it as it was meant to be driven, switching to a BMW-approved 5w-30 might help.

Again, make sure it meets the right specs per BMW. Don't just pick up any synthetic 5w-30 and expect it to work -- most won't.



This. Get them up to temp (oil temp) and beat the [censored] out of them. It's what they were built for. It probably WOULD run better if you tracked it.


Edited by KenO (10/07/13 06:34 PM)
_________________________
1995 Volvo 960 ShagginWagon
1995 BMW 328ti
1997 Chevy C2500 5.7l V8
1998 BMW 528i

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#3148259 - 10/07/13 06:48 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: CATERHAM]
Doug Hillary Offline


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 4864
Loc: Airlie Beach Australia
Hi,
CATERHAM - The Castrol Formula R 15W-50 containers had the following "qualifier";

"Castrol Formula R Synthetic will mix with conventional oils, but the enthusiast wanting an advanced lubricant would not be interested in contaminating this superior lubricant"

In Japan about 1982 I spoke with the Kubota Engine development Engineering team about using Formula R 15W-50 in their small high speed 3cyl diesel engines. They unanimously advised against it. I carried on my tests in OZ anyway and had these great little engines doing 3000hr OCIs on Formula R. These engines were fitted to truck refrigeration units and were trouble free during their life

The original R30 and R40 were non-miscible, you are correct

Mercedes-Benz sure struck new ground with R20 in the 1950s!!!!

Last year at Goodwood I asked the factory "Engineers"(Benz had three or four Silver Arrows cars there) what they were using - they didn't know - "That was a Museum decision" - was the answer
_________________________
Regards
Doug

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#3148527 - 10/07/13 08:46 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
marvinlee Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 23
Loc: Benton County, Oregon
Thicker oil can also help avoid consuming additional scarce space under the hood for heat exchangers to keep the oil cool. My Subaru manual specifies 5-30 but also advises thicker oil in extreme conditions.

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#3148533 - 10/07/13 08:49 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Doug Hillary]
marvinlee Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 23
Loc: Benton County, Oregon
Your comments remind me that engine manufacturers are not always deeply informed on lubricants. Typically, they know what works well and what is commercially available. But testing engines on a wide variety of lubricants is costly and probably unnecessary for most engine uses. In actual usage history, most engines will last over several new cycles of oil specifications.

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#3148593 - 10/07/13 09:18 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: marvinlee]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9225
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: marvinlee
Thicker oil can also help avoid consuming additional scarce space under the hood for heat exchangers to keep the oil cool.

All of the M cars that spec 10w-60 also have oil coolers. smile
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Castrol GTX 5w-20

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