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#3144132 - 10/03/13 05:16 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: pscholte]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26507
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pscholte
be sure to let me know if it has had any deleterious effects on you. :-)

Besides an occasional beverage spill on the monitor or keyboard, I'm doing just fine, thank you. smile
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3144153 - 10/03/13 05:48 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
ammolab Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 551
Loc: Ruidoso, NM USA
Originally Posted By: stchman
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?


So now 5W-30 is OK now in my S54 engine? It will save my new set of Rod Bearings?? TWS didn't keep my first set from failing! frown


Edited by ammolab (10/03/13 05:48 PM)
_________________________
2009 Honda CR-V
2002 BMW M Coupe
2011 BMW R1200R
1986 BMW K75C
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L

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#3144174 - 10/03/13 06:00 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: ammolab]
stchman Offline


Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: stchman
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?


So now 5W-30 is OK now in my S54 engine? It will save my new set of Rod Bearings?? TWS didn't keep my first set from failing! frown


I neither agree or disagree with their recommendations. I am simply passing information.
_________________________
2013 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ 2WD 5.3L
Mobil 1 5W-30
AC Delco PF48

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#3144176 - 10/03/13 06:01 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: vinu_neuro]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9738
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Someone can ask BMW why they couldn't get it done with a 5W-40 or 0W-40 when Porsche and Ferrari do with their high-revving engines. But CATERHAM is wrong to go around telling people to use a viscosity that's substantially lower than what the engine manufacturer has specified. In addition to temperature, speed, load, composite surface roughness matter as well. You don't have all of that, BMW does. As oil is an engine component, everything else is designed with it as the specification. Believe it or not, there's more to tribology than viscosity index = good and zddp = good. Stick to what they recommend, certainly don't go two grades lower.

The more I've read on this subject, the more I've come to respect engine manufacturerss oil specifications for their respective engines. They do screw up now and again, but they're still the ones that produced the engine and have far more data and expertise than anyone here. It's fine being conservative, eg. shortening oci's if you're not comfortable, but I certainly wouldn't be aggressive in going below what they call for in important areas like viscosity.

And I think you should stick to what the manufacturer recommends.
My recommendations are always qualified and directed to those who first raise the question and are interested in thinking for themselves and less in dogma.
The oil grade one uses ultimately is not important, it's operational viscosity that matters. It is much more precise and safer to heed the test oil pressure spec's of a manufacturer in conjunction with oil temp's in determining how much of a viscosity safety margin one has for the way they operate their car. Not everyone is into that but some are.
Even with just an oil temp' gauge certain very safe assumptions can still be made. In the case of the M3 one is, if you're never seeing oil temp's above 212F then yes a premium 0W/5W-40 will more than meet the engines viscosity requirements.
And as far as being two grades lighter than spec', remember the FF is 3 grades lighter.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3144207 - 10/03/13 06:36 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12584
Loc: Chicago, IL
The LL-01 list is quite small compared to the VW 502/505 list, especially for the US. Basically just M1 0w40, GC, SynPower, and PU Euro.

I will be using M1 0w40 when my M3 is due for an oil change in about 1000 miles (I'm doing 7500 mile changes).
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3144219 - 10/03/13 06:52 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1014
Loc: Chicago / IN
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Someone can ask BMW why they couldn't get it done with a 5W-40 or 0W-40 when Porsche and Ferrari do with their high-revving engines. But CATERHAM is wrong to go around telling people to use a viscosity that's substantially lower than what the engine manufacturer has specified. In addition to temperature, speed, load, composite surface roughness matter as well. You don't have all of that, BMW does. As oil is an engine component, everything else is designed with it as the specification. Believe it or not, there's more to tribology than viscosity index = good and zddp = good. Stick to what they recommend, certainly don't go two grades lower.

The more I've read on this subject, the more I've come to respect engine manufacturerss oil specifications for their respective engines. They do screw up now and again, but they're still the ones that produced the engine and have far more data and expertise than anyone here. It's fine being conservative, eg. shortening oci's if you're not comfortable, but I certainly wouldn't be aggressive in going below what they call for in important areas like viscosity.

And I think you should stick to what the manufacturer recommends.
My recommendations are always qualified and directed to those who first raise the question and are interested in thinking for themselves and less in dogma.
The oil grade one uses ultimately is not important, it's operational viscosity that matters. It is much more precise and safer to heed the test oil pressure spec's of a manufacturer in conjunction with oil temp's in determining how much of a viscosity safety margin one has for the way they operate their car. Not everyone is into that but some are.
Even with just an oil temp' gauge certain very safe assumptions can still be made. In the case of the M3 one is, if you're never seeing oil temp's above 212F then yes a premium 0W/5W-40 will more than meet the engines viscosity requirements.
And as far as being two grades lighter than spec', remember the FF is 3 grades lighter.




Doh, all those equations solved in models in papers published by OEM engine and lubricant manufacturers.got pwned by BITOG's CATERHAM. They forgot the oil pressure gauge!
_________________________
04 Honda Accord Coupe V6 6MT | M1 EP 0W-20

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#3144268 - 10/03/13 07:45 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26507
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: dparm
The LL-01 list is quite small compared to the VW 502/505 list, especially for the US. Basically just M1 0w40, GC, SynPower, and PU Euro.

There is also Castrol 0w-40 and Total Quartz 9000 5w-40. I think Lubro Moly sold at NAPA also has something that meets LL-01 in their lineup.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3144278 - 10/03/13 07:57 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
BTW, they've dialed it down to 10,000 miles starting with 2014 model year.

Probably because the engine lineup is completely different as of MY2014.

...I'd have ended that with a smiley, but in this case "different" involves the death of all naturally aspirated engines. frown


Doesn't apply to everyone but if you lived at 6-7000 feet and drove at even higher altitudes, you would wish, as I do, that every model of every marque had a turbo or supercharger. You lose SO MUCH HP.
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144294 - 10/03/13 08:10 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: ammolab]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: stchman
In a thread right below this one, BMW says you can use 10W60 or 5W30 as long as it's BMW oil or Castrol Edge.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Is Castrol Edge the ultimate oil or is BMW just in bed with Castrol?


So now 5W-30 is OK now in my S54 engine? It will save my new set of Rod Bearings?? TWS didn't keep my first set from failing! frown


Rod Bearings is great in concert...that gravelly voice of his is a winner!
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144300 - 10/03/13 08:16 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
Sometimes reading these threads I feel like I should either put on a referee's jersey or give some participants a binky


Edited by pscholte (10/03/13 08:18 PM)
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144316 - 10/03/13 08:33 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: pscholte]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26507
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: pscholte
Rod Bearings is great in concert...that gravelly voice of his is a winner!

This one time, he was the opening act for Motörhead... or was it Midnight Oil? I forget...
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3144365 - 10/03/13 09:23 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
pscholte Offline


Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 5180
Loc: Der Schwarzwaldwesten
I think your first choice is correct. that was after Roller Cambindo quit touring with him
_________________________
Life is a lot like oil: very slippery and doesn't (usually) have the fragrance of Gummi Bären

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#3144639 - 10/04/13 08:23 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1363
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Just an fyi...The new M cars which all have turbos do NOT take the 10w60 but the regular LL01 oils like the rest of the BMW fleet.
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

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#3144668 - 10/04/13 08:50 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Quattro Pete]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1363
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Interestingly enough, I'm looking at the US owner's manual of a 2013 M5, and read the following:

Quote:
Viscosity grades for engine oils
When selecting an engine oil, ensure that the engine oil belongs to the viscosity grade SAE 0W-30 or SAE 0W-40 or malfunctions or engine damage may occur.
Alternatively, also engine oils with viscosity grades SAE 5W-30 or SAE 5W-40 may be used
The engine oil quality is critical for the life of the
engine.
Some types of oils in some cases are not available in all countries.

Approved oil types
Specification
ACEA A3/B4
API SK/CF or superior grade specification


Strangely no mention of LL-01 spec. And API SK? What is that? There never was such a thing. smile



You'll find LL01 on the website. Interestingly they added Castrol Edge OE 5w30 as suitable for the S54, S62, S65, S85.


Please ignore this.post



Edited by BMWTurboDzl (10/04/13 08:57 AM)
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

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#3145019 - 10/04/13 02:10 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
79sunrunner Offline


Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 392
Loc: Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.



I'll have mine on track next weekend and will report back on your oil temp speculation. smile


Say what track do you go to? Autobahn Country Club is ALOT of fun in Joliet
_________________________
2013 Fiat 500T PU 5/40
'79 MG Midget SunRunner 20/50 GTX (winner of TopGears Rate Your Ride)
And many more leaky British cars!

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