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#313436 - 02/06/03 11:52 PM Questions and answers about filters
Ken2 Offline


Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 6258
Loc: Washington St.
I recently send a list of questions to Travis Winberg, of Baldwin's Service Engineering group. His answers are interesting----

1) Many folks I know feel that their OE oil filter is too small.
a) Why are filters so small these days?
b) I know that you'll always answer, "follow the car maker's recommendations," but are these filter really big enough for better than merely adequate protection?
c) Is it proper to substitute an oil filter by just matching the gasket & thread size, bypass setting, antidrainback valve presence, and physical ability to fit in order to get a larger filter?


I understand your concerns regarding the size of some filters. It is sad to say, but the cost of materials and manufacturing is the reason some filters are so small. however, there are some applications that require a small filter.

Oil filters should not be compared solely by thread size and valving. The media of the filter is a very important characteristic that affects the performance of the filter.

2) What do you need to know from an engine maker to design a filter for an engine?

Engine manufactures generally do not provide much assistance to after-market filter manufacturers to build replacement filters. Therefore, we develop our products by thoroughly analyzing the OEM product and designing our filter to meet or exceed the performance of the OEM filter. The product are often further evaluated through field testing before they are released.

3) Why do some filter makers (Baldwin and others) have so many filters in their line for the usual engines, and other filter makers fit those same engines with so few filter models?

Baldwin's guarantee is to meet the performance requirements of the OEM. Therefore, we do not substitute a filter with an 8 psi by-pass valve for an application using a 20 psi by-pass valve. That is why Baldwin may have several filters compared to a company that makes those compromises.

4) a) Is an oil filter often in bypass during normal or high speed engine operation? Or is the flow through the filter media sufficient for full filtration in all cases except very cold oil?
b) Do you have any figures on the percentage of time the oil is not bypassing in normal car and truck operation?

5) What degree of filtration is actually beneficial? 20 micron? 15? 10? 1 micron bypass? (I'm thinking of absolute 98.5% filtration.)


In a full-flow lube system 20-35 micron absolute is efficient filtration. Using a filter that has a high efficiency at much lower micron ratings will compromise the capacity of the filter and make it more susceptible to going into by-pass. By-pass lube filtration is effective in the range of 5-12 micron absolute. SAE multipass test procedures cannot test to an absolute micron rating of 2 or lower.

6) a) Is additional filtration beneficial for an automatic transmission?
b) 20 micron? 6 micron? 1 micron bypass?


Additional filtration is beneficial for the transmission even at the 20 micron level.

7) What should the consumer look for in a quality air filter?
b) What are the signs of a poor quality air filter to avoid?


A good quality air filter will have evenly spaced pleats an plenty of media surface area. The gaskets and media should be inspected for uniformity.

8) Is my assumption correct...Baldwin aims at the industrial & fleet market and Hastings aims at the consumer/auto repair shop/quality auto parts store market?

Baldwin does have more market share in the heavy-duty and industrial while Hastings has more in the automotive.


My thanks to Mr. Winberg. If we were face to face, I'd ask a more questions and get elaboration on some answers, but I appreciate everything he sent to me.


Ken

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#313437 - 02/07/03 06:36 PM Re: Questions and answers about filters
jsharp Offline


Registered: 12/25/02
Posts: 3585
Loc: Outside smalltown, IL
quote:
Originally posted by Ken2:
I recently send a list of questions to Travis Winberg, of Baldwin's Service Engineering group. His answers are interesting----


[i]4) a) Is an oil filter often in bypass during normal or high speed engine operation? Or is the flow through the filter media sufficient for full filtration in all cases except very cold oil?
b) Do you have any figures on the percentage of time the oil is not bypassing in normal car and truck operation?

I wish we could have gotten and answer to this question...
[Frown]

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#313438 - 02/07/03 11:51 PM Re: Questions and answers about filters
JohnnyG Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 323
Loc: Ohio
quote:
4) a) Is an oil filter often in bypass during normal or high speed engine operation? Or is the flow through the filter media sufficient for full filtration in all cases except very cold oil?
b) Do you have any figures on the percentage of time the oil is not bypassing in normal car and truck operation?

5) What degree of filtration is actually beneficial? 20 micron? 15? 10? 1 micron bypass? (I'm thinking of absolute 98.5% filtration.)

In a full-flow lube system 20-35 micron absolute is efficient filtration. Using a filter that has a high efficiency at much lower micron ratings will compromise the capacity of the filter and make it more susceptible to going into by-pass. By-pass lube filtration is effective in the range of 5-12 micron absolute. SAE multipass test procedures cannot test to an absolute micron rating of 2 or lower.

I am far from an expert on these matters, but please consider this. In discussions with a GM (Northstar) engineer, I asked about bypass valves in oil filters. He stated that the bypass valve is not in the filter, but in the engine. He suspected that maby were confusing the anti-drainback valve with the bypass valve. He further went on to explain that a job as important to correct engine lubrication would never be left to the variables present in oil filter manufacture. The valves are pressure set at the factory and require special, precise spring rates to do their job.
Now, if this is true, we DO have an answer to the questions quoted, it's just that the Baldwin filter rep did not want to say that someone is making a wrong assumption about filtration.
Engine designs vary as to the type of oil filtration systems used. From many years ago, Ford and Chrysler used a "full flow" oil system. This can be described more completely as a system that always allows the full amount of oil to flow to the engine...(and here's the catch) while only filtering a portion of the stream at any one time. This type of system would be in "bypass" all of the time. The "deep filter" media of the old Fords, took out VERY small particles, kinda like a roll of toilet paper would, it just wouldn't filter ALL of the oil ALL of the time.
Todays engines have gone in another direction altogether with the "bypass" type filtration. They filter all of the oil, all of the time, unless the differential pressure exceeds that of the (engine's) bypass valve. This allows the single layer type paper element so common in the filters we study, to be made cheaply and efficiently.
As I said, I'm far from an expert and may have a lot of the terminology confused, but let's try to straighten this out once and for all. Why would there be a bypass valve in a filter?

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#313439 - 02/08/03 12:17 AM Re: Questions and answers about filters
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19306
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
The GM engines do have their bypass in the engine, this is true, so filters for them don't have any bypass at all. But for most cars, they don't have the bypass in the engine, so it's necessary in the filter. The filters I buy for my sister's Honda and wife's Honda have the bypass valve in the bottom. The filter I buy for my mom's Probe GT has the bypass valve in the top, but it's more of a spring than a valve. The filters I buy for my LT1 Firebird have no bypass valve at all.

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#313440 - 02/08/03 03:58 AM Re: Questions and answers about filters
JohnnyG Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 323
Loc: Ohio
I'm still not convinced that we can say "most cars". A friend of mine had a Mitsubihi powered Talon that had the bypass valve in the engine. I know because it stuck open and he lost oil pressure. Are there any mechanics/engineers out there that can confirm any of this? Are you sure it's not an anti drainback valve in the Honda and Probe filter? Sorry to be so skeptical, but I still think tighter manufacturing controls are needed on such a critical part. Oil filter qualities vary so widely, as evidenced by the posts on this board, I just don't see a $25,000.00 Honda letting them control this part.

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#313441 - 02/08/03 06:27 AM Re: Questions and answers about filters
cryptokid Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 1565
Loc: palm beach
most of the time filter manufacturers just dont care to much. they try to keep small inventory by using the same filter for as namy cars s possible. this is why some cars which have an internal bypass valve, also have a secondary bypass valve in the oil filter.
my porsche is like this, its got its own internal valve, however the filters designed for this car also have them, because that same filter is used on alot of different cars, and even some tractors.
it is really because the oil filter makers want to keep as few parts as possible, reduced inventory, cheaper production etc.....

one last thing, no one seems to realise this but when a filter is in bypass mode, it is still filtering through the media, it is just dumping whatever excess it cant filter, through the bypass. your oil filter would have to be 100% clogged for it to work in strictly bypass mode.

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#313442 - 02/08/03 06:47 AM Re: Questions and answers about filters
Ken2 Offline


Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 6258
Loc: Washington St.
JohnnyG,

Are you sure that the Mitsubishi had the oil filter bypass valve in the engine?...maybe the culprit was the oil pump pressure control valve? Or maybe you're absolutely right.

Anyway, many, many engine makers call for the bypass valve inside the filter.

You've got full-flow filtering and bypass filtering switched around. Every engine I know of these days has a full-flow filter. All the oil goes through the filter on it's way to the bearings, cams, etc. The bypass filter cleans 10% or less of the oil, and cleans it very finely. They're usually an add-on, although they may be standard on some good sized diesels.

As the Baldwin engineer said, if the filter is correctly matched with the engine maker's spec, it'll only bypass when the oil is cold.


Ken

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#313443 - 02/08/03 05:06 PM Re: Questions and answers about filters
Mike_dup1 Offline


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 3011
Loc: USA-Michigan
The pressure relief valve in an oil filter is there to insure added protection in the event of a oil pressure surge, something that can happen on a cold start for instance. If the valve inside the engine stuck, the filter could still compensate for the buildup of pressure.

Some are of the opinion that quality filters will incorporate this feature. There is no drawback to having one in the filter, as well as the engine.

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#313444 - 02/08/03 09:07 PM Re: Questions and answers about filters
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19306
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
The pressure relief valve in an oil filter is there to insure added protection in the event of a oil pressure surge, something that can happen on a cold start for instance. If the valve inside the engine stuck, the filter could still compensate for the buildup of pressure.

Some are of the opinion that quality filters will incorporate this feature. There is no drawback to having one in the filter, as well as the engine.

I disagree. I think there could be a big drawback to having the bypass in the filter and in the engine. The bypass in the filter might just kick into bypass mode more often than necessary. I would trust the one in the engine much more. I'm glad my Firebird's got a bypass in the engine and does not need it in the filter. I'd never buy a filter for this car which had the bypass in it too.

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#313445 - 02/09/03 12:39 AM Re: Questions and answers about filters
Mike_dup1 Offline


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 3011
Loc: USA-Michigan
I think you are making much ado about nothing, IMHO.

I use filters with them for over 25 + years and till this year I had no idea they were even in there, nor did I care. I have them in my 2001 GMC, my friend had 100,000 miles on the same in his 1996 Chevy and I have them in my 2002 Trans Am.

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#313446 - 02/09/03 04:02 AM Re: Questions and answers about filters
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19306
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
I think you are making much ado about nothing, IMHO.

I use filters with them for over 25 + years and till this year I had no idea they were even in there, nor did I care. I have them in my 2001 GMC, my friend had 100,000 miles on the same in his 1996 Chevy and I have them in my 2002 Trans Am.

Perhaps I am a bit pickier over little things, but I like to err on the safe side of things.

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#313447 - 02/09/03 04:18 AM Re: Questions and answers about filters
OneQuartLow Offline


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 874
Loc: Pacific NW
Patman, I'd suggest the cautious approach would be a filter with built-in bypass valve. Engine valves do fail, either bursting the case, seal, or collapsing the media of a non-bypass filter. Or horrors [Smile] bypassing continually.

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#313448 - 02/09/03 01:36 PM Re: Questions and answers about filters
Patman Offline



Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 19306
Loc: Oakville, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by OneQuartLow:
Patman, I'd suggest the cautious approach would be a filter with built-in bypass valve. Engine valves do fail, either bursting the case, seal, or collapsing the media of a non-bypass filter. Or horrors [Smile] bypassing continually.

Oh sure, give me more information to keep me awake at night now! [Razz]

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#313449 - 02/09/03 05:22 PM Re: Questions and answers about filters
Mike_dup1 Offline


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 3011
Loc: USA-Michigan
Here's more reason for the bypass valve

quote:
Bulletin No.: 00-06-01-025A
Date: September, 2001
INFORMATION
Subject:
Correct Oil Viscosity and Oil Filter Usage for the Duramax 6600 Diesel Engine (RPO LB7)
Models:
2001-2002 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra 2500 HD and 3500 Models with 6.6L Engine (VIN 1 - RPO LB7)
This bulletin is being revised to add the AC Delco oil filter part number and add the 2002 Model Year. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 00-06-01-025 (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).
Important :The Duramax 6600 diesel engine can produce oil pressures over 690 kPa (100 psi) during a cold start condition and the oil pressure gauge may remain near 552 kPa (80 psi) while driving. Because of these oil pressures, it is important that the correct oil filter is used and torqued properly and the proper oil viscosity is used for the ambient temperatures.
Oil Filter
The correct oil filter for use on the Duramax 6600 engine is the AC PF2232 or the production oil filter, GM P/N 97214983. This filter was designed specifically for use on the Duramax 6600 engine and incorporates improved filtering capabilities as well as an integral oil pressure relief valve. The oil filter should be torqued to 24 N.m (18 lb ft) to prevent leaks under high pressure conditions.
Oil Viscosity for Cold Weather Operation
SAE 5W-40 viscosity oil designated as API CH-4 or CG-4 should be used if the ambient temperature falls below -18C (0F) to prevent excessive oil pressure on a cold start. Refer to the Owner's Manual diesel supplement for additional information on proper oil usage for other operating conditions.


So I would say that if you are using oil other than the proper viscosity you are running the same risk as this. Just mu opinion but its your engine.

[ February 10, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]

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#313450 - 02/09/03 10:14 PM Re: Questions and answers about filters
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
What risk?

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