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#3114828 - 09/04/13 04:46 PM Seizing caliper?
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
On the M5.

I developed a "squeek squeek squeek" from the right front wheel that goes away the instant you touch the brake pedal.

Brake pads are relatively new and have PLENTY of meat on them.

Rotors are OE and were machined.

There appears to be a little bit of a thickness variation in the rotor (can't feel it in the pedal) because with this wheel off the ground:

A). It doesn't "spin" freely. You can rotate it, but it doesn't continue to spin.

B). If you spin it fast enough you can reproduce the squeek.

C). There's a small "easy" spot when rotating it where it spins easier, but then goes back to the way it was.

Yesterday I pulled the wheel looking for the source of the noise. It seemed to come from the caliper/pad/rotor interface.

I removed the caliper.

I was able to then "spin" the rotor with very little effort and it kept spinning with no funny feel to it at all. So the wheel bearing is fine.

I took a file to all the sliding surfaces, pulled the pins, cleaned them, lubed everything with Permatex synthetic brake lube and reassembled.

Problem is still there. It is like the caliper is putting just a bit of pressure on the pad and it shouldn't be. The calipers are original, and while not "high mileage", they are old. I'm not sure if the original owner ever had the brake fluid changed either. Most likely not.

I'm thinking the caliper is on its way out.

Thoughts?
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#3114839 - 09/04/13 04:53 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
heynow Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 313
Loc: Nevada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Rotors are OE and were machined.



How long ago were the rotors machined?
How long after the machining did the noise begin?
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#3114866 - 09/04/13 05:08 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
chrome Offline


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 373
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
In a lot of caliper design, the seal on the piston is designed to slightly retract the piston when the hydraulic pressure is relieved.

Perhaps in your case, there's slight corrosion in the bore, just enough to prevent the piston from retracting. Are you able to rebuild the caliper yourself?

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#3114875 - 09/04/13 05:14 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: heynow]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
You will obtain substantial and critical information by closely comparing BOTH sides to each other.

1) Raise the entire front end so BOTH wheels are off the ground at the same time (use center jacking point).
2) Remove BOTH front wheels.
3) Remove BOTH front calipers (and hang them from the springs so there is no strain on the hoses).
4) Remove and compare BOTH sets of brake pads. Compare like to like, i. e.: trail edge of left outer pad to trail edge of right outer pad, etc.

Are both sides EXACTLY identical, or are there differences? If there are differences, describe.

Is there sufficient piston standing proud of the caliper that you can peel back the dust boot and check for rust or gum on the piston?

Can you get a set of Channel-Loks onto the piston lip and rotate the piston within the caliper? If the pistons will rotate, does one rotate more easily than the other?

(There is one more test that is very effective in diagnosis, but if you are unsure of the date of last brake-fluid change, I will not suggest it.)
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#3114876 - 09/04/13 05:14 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 4267
Loc: Toronto, Canada
How are the pads looking, are the wearing evenly?
My focus had the same thing happen and pads were not wearing evenly and the pad material was not parallel to the backing plate. However the rotoras were also very rusty and you could see that the pads did not make full contact with them.
In any case, new pads and rotors fixed the issue.
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#3114877 - 09/04/13 05:15 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: chrome]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: chrome
In a lot of caliper design, the seal on the piston is designed to slightly retract the piston when the hydraulic pressure is relieved.

Perhaps in your case, there's slight corrosion in the bore, just enough to prevent the piston from retracting. Are you able to rebuild the caliper yourself?


I don't know if I can get new parts for it if I did. I'll probably just buy new ones from BMW if that's the case.
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#3114879 - 09/04/13 05:16 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: heynow]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Christopher Hussey
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Rotors are OE and were machined.



How long ago were the rotors machined?
How long after the machining did the noise begin?


They were machined about 6 months ago easily, if not longer than that. The squeaking started the other day.
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#3114882 - 09/04/13 05:17 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger
You will obtain substantial and critical information by closely comparing BOTH sides to each other.

1) Raise the entire front end so BOTH wheels are off the ground at the same time (use center jacking point).
2) Remove BOTH front wheels.
3) Remove BOTH front calipers (and hang them from the springs so there is no strain on the hoses).
4) Remove and compare BOTH sets of brake pads. Compare like to like, i. e.: trail edge of left outer pad to trail edge of right outer pad, etc.

Are both sides EXACTLY identical, or are there differences? If there are differences, describe.

Is there sufficient piston standing proud of the caliper that you can peel back the dust boot and check for rust or gum on the piston?

Can you get a set of Channel-Loks onto the piston lip and rotate the piston within the caliper? If the pistons will rotate, does one rotate more easily than the other?

(There is one more test that is very effective in diagnosis, but if you are unsure of the date of last brake-fluid change, I will not suggest it.)


Great advice, and thank you. I don't think I'll have time for that in the next few days however, as I have a VERY busy month coming up unfortunately frown

The car doesn't have a front central jacking point, so I'll have to jack up both sides and put the front on stands.
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#3114884 - 09/04/13 05:19 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: KrisZ]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
How are the pads looking, are the wearing evenly?
My focus had the same thing happen and pads were not wearing evenly and the pad material was not parallel to the backing plate. However the rotoras were also very rusty and you could see that the pads did not make full contact with them.
In any case, new pads and rotors fixed the issue.


The pads and rotors look excellent and there isn't really any rust build-up either shrug

I'm thinking the caliper is hanging the piston out a bit causing the pad to "scuff" the rotor as it spins. Which would explain the resistance.
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#3114889 - 09/04/13 05:22 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
chrome Offline


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 373
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Given the cost of new calipers from BMW, it will be well worth the effort to troubleshoot this problem. Good advice from Tegger et al.

Also, might be worth taking off the disc and cleaning both mating surfaces (hub/disc) with a wire brush. If corrosion sets in between the surfaces, that will lead to symptoms similar to DTV.

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#3114892 - 09/04/13 05:24 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: chrome]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: chrome
Given the cost of new calipers from BMW, it will be well worth the effort to troubleshoot this problem. Good advice from Tegger et al.

Also, might be worth taking off the disc and cleaning both mating surfaces (hub/disc) with a wire brush. If corrosion sets in between the surfaces, that will lead to symptoms similar to DTV.


The mating surfaces are spotless (should have mentioned that in the OP, my apologies) and have already been cleaned recently.

Yes, the calipers are about $500/each.......... crzy
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#3114912 - 09/04/13 05:44 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 4540
Loc: Virginia Beach
In addition to the caliper checks above, it is possible that the brake hose itself has started to degrade internally, preventing free fluid flow when the piston should retract...in essence, acting like a one way valve...if the calipers check out, then I suggest changing front brake hoses and flushing the fluid...
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#3114920 - 09/04/13 05:49 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Astro14]
cb_13 Offline


Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 397
Loc: Missouri
I agree with Astro. I have seen the hoses cause a similar issue. Even if you replace the caliper I would also replace the hose if it's a high mileage vehicle.

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#3114921 - 09/04/13 05:50 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
JamesBond Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 365
Loc: midwest
If you drive it around the block easy a few times, is there a difference in temperature of the rotors after you park it?

I assume this is a special car that doesn't get driven daily. Find a safe place and give the brakes a bit of a workout and see if that helps.

I rebuilt a front caliper that had been dragging on an e28 535i recently. It was just cleaning the piston and bore, and replacing the seal and boot. The brakes had been bled recently but there was still a lot of gunk down in the caliper. I thought it would be difficult and was kind of timid about it but once you take it all apart its actually pretty simple. Watch some videos on how its done.

I would get a rebuild kit from BMW or from the caliper builder and give it a shot.

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#3114924 - 09/04/13 05:55 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
outdoorsman310 Offline


Registered: 08/26/13
Posts: 113
Loc: DE
when do you hear the squeak? low speed, high speed, affected by turning? do you hear it when applying parking brake instead of regular brake? check that the pads are worn evenly and the caliper and pads slide freely. the flex hose could be blocked inside as well. does that have tapered rotors? that has lug bolts instead of studs right? you might want to tighten a few on the rotor to ensure that it is flat on the hub when rotating the wheel.

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#3114937 - 09/04/13 06:10 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: cb_13]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: cb_13
I agree with Astro. I have seen the hoses cause a similar issue. Even if you replace the caliper I would also replace the hose if it's a high mileage vehicle.


It isn't a high mileage vehicle.
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#3114939 - 09/04/13 06:11 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: JamesBond]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: JamesBond
If you drive it around the block easy a few times, is there a difference in temperature of the rotors after you park it?

I assume this is a special car that doesn't get driven daily. Find a safe place and give the brakes a bit of a workout and see if that helps.

I rebuilt a front caliper that had been dragging on an e28 535i recently. It was just cleaning the piston and bore, and replacing the seal and boot. The brakes had been bled recently but there was still a lot of gunk down in the caliper. I thought it would be difficult and was kind of timid about it but once you take it all apart its actually pretty simple. Watch some videos on how its done.

I would get a rebuild kit from BMW or from the caliper builder and give it a shot.


It is daily driven, I put a lot of miles on it actually.

I was unaware that BMW sold caliper rebuilt kits! If they do, then we are good to go. I've done calipers before, just didn't think BMW sold the necessary parts.
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#3114943 - 09/04/13 06:13 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: outdoorsman310]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: outdoorsman310
when do you hear the squeak? low speed, high speed, affected by turning? do you hear it when applying parking brake instead of regular brake? check that the pads are worn evenly and the caliper and pads slide freely. the flex hose could be blocked inside as well. does that have tapered rotors? that has lug bolts instead of studs right? you might want to tighten a few on the rotor to ensure that it is flat on the hub when rotating the wheel.


- The squeak is constant, and happens at any speed.

- It is not affected by turning.

- The parking brake does nothing to it, as it is in the right front wheel

- The flex hoses LOOK in good shape, no signs of dry rot, but I guess this is a possibility

- No, the car does not have tapered rotors

- Yes, it has lug bolts. But also has bolts that hold the rotor to the hub
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#3114948 - 09/04/13 06:21 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
outdoorsman310 Offline


Registered: 08/26/13
Posts: 113
Loc: DE
is the backing plate contacting the rotor? pad shims could be falling off too. if you cant push the piston back easily but it pushes back easily when the bleeder is opened that would indicate a restriction in the line.

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#3114996 - 09/04/13 06:59 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: outdoorsman310]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: outdoorsman310
is the backing plate contacting the rotor? pad shims could be falling off too. if you cant push the piston back easily but it pushes back easily when the bleeder is opened that would indicate a restriction in the line.


No, nothing is contacting the rotors. Pad shims are perfect, I had the works apart yesterday as per my OP.

I'm hesitant to crack the bleeders on these as I'm worried about breaking them.....
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#3115013 - 09/04/13 07:09 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think I'll have time for that in the next few days however, as I have a VERY busy month coming up unfortunately

I kinda wish you'd waited until you actually had time to carry out the advice you're receiving.

Some Googling indicates that your M5 has 2-piston floating calipers. This complicates things greatly, for now you have twice the probability of a seized piston on either side. Plus you have the standard floating-caliper bugbears of seized pads and seized pins

And you definitely need to check for trueness of the rotor. I see your rotors are slip-on over the hub. This adds yet another variable: rust buildup between rotor and hub. This can make the rotor wobble as it spins. To confirm the presence of that, you need a dial indicator (cheap Grizzly one will do).

Pistons can rust (or are yours stainless?) and old brake-fluid can cause really thick gum to build up. You MUST check for all the above things or you're wasting your time and everybody else's.

Considering that you live in the Rust Belt, and considering the age and the unknown maintenance history of the vehicle, anything anybody tells you now is a guess. You need to do what I've said, and actually look at the parts in question the way I said to.
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#3115024 - 09/04/13 07:16 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think I'll have time for that in the next few days however, as I have a VERY busy month coming up unfortunately

I kinda wish you'd waited until you actually had time to carry out the advice you're receiving.

Some Googling indicates that your M5 has 2-piston floating calipers. This complicates things greatly, for now you have twice the probability of a seized piston on either side. Plus you have the standard floating-caliper bugbears of seized pads and seized pins

And you definitely need to check for trueness of the rotor. I see your rotors are slip-on over the hub. This adds yet another variable: rust buildup between rotor and hub. This can make the rotor wobble as it spins. To confirm the presence of that, you need a dial indicator (cheap Grizzly one will do).

Pistons can rust (or are yours stainless?) and old brake-fluid can cause really thick gum to build up. You MUST check for all the above things or you're wasting your time and everybody else's.

Considering that you live in the Rust Belt, and considering the age and the unknown maintenance history of the vehicle, anything anybody tells you now is a guess. You need to do what I've said, and actually look at the parts in question the way I said to.


- The Car has single piston calipers. The next generation M5 after mine has twin-piston.

- As in the original post, I had the caliper OFF the car. The pins slide freely and do NOT BIND.

- The pads move freely, and I cleaned and lubricated their contact points, as indicated in the opening post.

- I have a dial indicator, I'll dig it up.

- The hub and mating surface are clean, I checked that. They were off recently.

- The pistons are rusty as heck inside where the pad clips slide in, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they aren't stainless wink

- I've looked at everything except the inside of the caliper, because I can't take it apart without risking making the vehicle undriveable. That's WHY I created this thread, to get some idea BEFORE I dug in any further so that I'm not wasting MY TIME by giving myself a vehicle I can't drive while waiting for replacement parts. I'm sorry if you took this as wasting your time and that of other members, that was not my intention.
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#3115045 - 09/04/13 07:37 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
andyd Offline


Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 3800
Loc: Marshfield , MA
It is NOT the brake hoses. If the BMW was 20 yrs old, maybe. I am running on original hoses.

I have developed a process of fixing sticky calipers.First, I free up the bleeder. Then, I take the caliper off the carrier. Next, I slowly pump the brake pedal to ease the piston out until I can grab it with pliers. I pull the piston out and wire wheel the rust off its top. If there are any corrosion blisters on it, I file them smooth. I use Syl- Glyde to re-assemble. I make sure the bleeder is clean . I use a 6" C clamp and a hammer to start the piston back in. Twist, twist, tap, tap. The piston seal is at the top, corrosion in the barrel wont affect it. Bleed the system and you're done. The rubber parts are fine to re-use, so I don't even bother with the rebuild kits any more.
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#3115058 - 09/04/13 07:55 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
nitehawk55 Offline


Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1043
Loc: Ontario , Canada
Getting any pedal pulse ?

Regardless if you had them done 6 months ago , one session of some hard braking that gets a rotor hot enough and it can warp .
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#3115065 - 09/04/13 07:58 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Warstud Offline


Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 2863
Loc: MIchigan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
It is like the caliper is putting just a bit of pressure on the pad and it shouldn't be.


There designed to put a bit of pressure on the pad. That's why the wheel spins so much easier when the caliper is removed. You just need to spin both wheels with the same force and count the revolutions.

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#3115074 - 09/04/13 08:03 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
- The pistons are rusty as heck inside where the pad clips slide in,

Then there is a very high probability that there is rust on the piston under where the dust boot covers it. And very likely gum from the old brake fluid as well. Something like this:


Yes, that's a Honda rear brake, but the principle is identical. Rust/gum causes the piston to stick and refuse to retract as it should. If you can get a Channel-Lok onto the piston, rotate/pull it out of its bore until you can peel the boot back. At that point any rust/gum will become abundantly evident.

BUT... you need to inspect everything properly, and check the rotor for runout with that dial gauge. With your car's age and lack of correct servicing, anything is possible. This is the sort of job garages hate, but that somebody like me would find to be fun.
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#3115083 - 09/04/13 08:06 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
GSCJR Online   content


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 700
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Apply Syl-Glyde to the contact points between the caliper and the pads too. Specifically, on the inboard pad backing where the piston makes contact and on the outboard pad backing where the caliper fingers make contact. Also, IIRC your application contains a metal anti-rattle clip which maintains pressure on the caliper. Lubricate its contact points as well. HTH.
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#3115090 - 09/04/13 08:09 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 9855
Loc: Illinois
The brake hose can look good, but the damage is inside the hose and can actually prevent all the pressure from releasing. Bad hoses cause a lot of premature pad failures.
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#3115134 - 09/04/13 08:39 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Apply Syl-Glyde to the contact points between the caliper and the pads too. Specifically, on the inboard pad backing where the piston makes contact and on the outboard pad backing where the caliper fingers make contact.

Sil-Glyde is a bad choice for the applications you mention. Molykote M-77 is the very best stuff to use in this case.
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#3115141 - 09/04/13 08:46 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Apply Syl-Glyde to the contact points between the caliper and the pads too. Specifically, on the inboard pad backing where the piston makes contact and on the outboard pad backing where the caliper fingers make contact. Also, IIRC your application contains a metal anti-rattle clip which maintains pressure on the caliper. Lubricate its contact points as well. HTH.


That's all already been done yesterday smile However I used the Permatex synthetic brake lube, not Syl-Glyde.
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#3115144 - 09/04/13 08:48 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger


BUT... you need to inspect everything properly, and check the rotor for runout with that dial gauge. With your car's age and lack of correct servicing, anything is possible. This is the sort of job garages hate, but that somebody like me would find to be fun.


I don't mind doing it either, I just figured that getting a 2nd (3rd, 4th, 5th....etc) opinion on what was going on would help smile And your advice has been invaluable, so I thank you for that.

I'll update this thread once I've had a chance to inspect the piston.
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#3115160 - 09/04/13 08:57 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Brybo86 Offline


Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 747
Loc: Chicago, IL
my bet is either rotor warped or wobble from buildup, the dial caliper is your best friend, test the rotor surface, then remove rotor and test hub/bearing surface
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#3115174 - 09/04/13 09:11 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
GSCJR Online   content


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 700
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Apply Syl-Glyde to the contact points between the caliper and the pads too. Specifically, on the inboard pad backing where the piston makes contact and on the outboard pad backing where the caliper fingers make contact.

Sil-Glyde is a bad choice for the applications you mention. Molykote M-77 is the very best stuff to use in this case.


You've been on this forum long enough to know that the words "best" and "bad" are subjective. I have done more brake jobs than I can count and Syl-Glyde has never caused a problem when applied correctly to the brake pads. "Now back to our regular scheduled program." @Overkill, Perfect!
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#3115253 - 09/04/13 10:04 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
AMC Offline


Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 383
Loc: South Eastern, CT
I was having almost the exact same problem on my dad's 2002 Jeep Wrangler that you are with your BMW. I did a pad and rotor job and everything went perfect. I even flushed the brake fluid and put anti-sieze on the new rotors to stop the rims from sticking. The jeep stopped great and the pedal feel was much better. After a week of normal driving, it seemed like the alignment was off and the brakes were squeeking when driving at low speeds. Over a period of 10 minutes, every time I stepped on the brakes, the whole jeep pulled to the right hard. It got so bad that I almost had to cut the steering wheel all the way left to make a hard stop and keep the truck on the road.

I took the wheels off and found the passenger side caliper locked and not wanting to release at all. I opened the bleeder and pushed the piston back again, inspected everything and everything looked fine. I put the wheel back togther and tested it out with the jeep still on jack stands. Sure enough, the piston would press out into the pad but it would only retract about 1mm. I replaced the caliper and everything has been working great since.

Before I turned in the caliper for the core charge, I took it all apart and found nothing really wrong. I then tested my brake hoses by pumping the brakes a bunch of times, releasing the pedal and then opening the bleeder to see if the fluid was pressurized by a failed brake line. Almost nothing came out, the brake hoses were fine.

Long story short, the caliper in a 2002 jeep wrangler randomly locked up and wouldn't release. No ryme or reason to it, it just didn't want to release anymore. Replacing the caliper fixed the problem. If just buying a new caliper is too expensive for you, a rebuild should fix it.
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#3115469 - 09/05/13 07:18 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
You've been on this forum long enough to know that the words "best" and "bad" are subjective. I have done more brake jobs than I can count and Syl-Glyde has never caused a problem when applied correctly to the brake pads.

I do not use the terms "best" and "bad" lightly; I mean what I say, here. Sil-Glyde does not prevent rust. If anything, it seems to promote rust. It's a rubber lubricant only.

The point of applying grease to the piston/shim interface and caliper/shim interface is to prevent rust in those locations. M-77 is the very best I've ever found for this application, and Sil-Glyde is the very poorest choice. I speak from personal Rust Belt experience on these things.

Since Honda brakes have had long-standing and notoriously awful problems with corrosion in the Rust Belt, Honda Canada did extensive research into a solution. They put out a TSB on the solution they developed. I've tried it, and it beats -- hands down -- anything I've ever tried in 20 years of fighting with brake rust. The principle of the Honda solution will work on any brake assembly.
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#3115658 - 09/05/13 11:11 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
hattaresguy Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 5137
Loc: CT
When was the brake fluid last changed? Should be done at minimum every 2 years.

Also don't turn German rotors, they are probably right at the min spec. Also how old are the brake houses? Those are probably getting tired as well.

I assume these are fixed calipers? One of the pistons is probably just sticking a bit.

If you suspect one is sticking a bit after you drive the car shoot the rotors with a thermometer and see if their is a big temperature variation.

German cars, especially high performance German cars are very sensitive about the brakes being in spec. It doesn't take much, a tire shop with an impact set to a million foot pounds can warp a rotor.


Edited by hattaresguy (09/05/13 11:15 AM)

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#3115691 - 09/05/13 11:39 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
GSCJR Online   content


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 700
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
You've been on this forum long enough to know that the words "best" and "bad" are subjective. I have done more brake jobs than I can count and Syl-Glyde has never caused a problem when applied correctly to the brake pads.

I do not use the terms "best" and "bad" lightly; I mean what I say, here. Sil-Glyde does not prevent rust. If anything, it seems to promote rust. It's a rubber lubricant only.

The point of applying grease to the piston/shim interface and caliper/shim interface is to prevent rust in those locations. M-77 is the very best I've ever found for this application, and Sil-Glyde is the very poorest choice. I speak from personal Rust Belt experience on these things.

Since Honda brakes have had long-standing and notoriously awful problems with corrosion in the Rust Belt, Honda Canada did extensive research into a solution. They put out a TSB on the solution they developed. I've tried it, and it beats -- hands down -- anything I've ever tried in 20 years of fighting with brake rust. The principle of the Honda solution will work on any brake assembly.


Substantial amount of info and photos here.

http://www.agscompany.com/lubricants/canadian/205
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#3115793 - 09/05/13 01:38 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: hattaresguy]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
When was the brake fluid last changed? Should be done at minimum every 2 years.


I'm going to say never, as I don't think it is part of BMW's "Scheduled maintenance" and the car was dealer maintained until I got it. If it IS part of that though, then it would have been changed whenever BMW called for it.

Quote:
Also don't turn German rotors, they are probably right at the min spec.


They are at the min spec now (after turning), but they aren't pulsing or doing anything funky.

Quote:
Also how old are the brake houses? Those are probably getting tired as well.


Original, but they look to be in great shape.

Quote:
I assume these are fixed calipers? One of the pistons is probably just sticking a bit.


Nope, floating. And they have big singles, not twin piston.

Quote:
If you suspect one is sticking a bit after you drive the car shoot the rotors with a thermometer and see if their is a big temperature variation.


Good idea, I'll see if I can borrow my buddy's IR gun.

Quote:
German cars, especially high performance German cars are very sensitive about the brakes being in spec. It doesn't take much, a tire shop with an impact set to a million foot pounds can warp a rotor.


And that has been a problem actually. The shop I deal with, who is great with pretty much everything, was using the torque stick on my wheels. They stopped doing that when the car had to go up to BMW to get one of the wheel locks off because the key broke, LOL! They now use a torque wrench, like I use, and put them at 88lb-ft.

BTW, the squeaking is less today. I'm wondering if the disassembly and cleaning up of everything has worked to alleviate the issue shrug
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#3116023 - 09/05/13 06:25 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9410
Loc: OH
My first suggestion was going to be that you live with the noise for a couple of weeks and a couple of weeks of driving and see whether it doesn't fix itself.
Minor brake noise problems will often do that, and it's not as though you would have been creating any hazard for yourself or others, since you obviously have adequate clamping force to stop the car.
Leave this alone for another week and then post back as to whether the irritating squeal and stickiness are both gone.
I'd lay odds that they will be.
What's really causing this problem?
Who knows, but I do know that you could drop a lot of money, and have already dropped a lot of time on a problem that will likely resolve itself.
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#3116164 - 09/05/13 08:21 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Substantial amount of info and photos here.

http://www.agscompany.com/lubricants/canadian/205

Well, my fairly extensive Rust Belt experience is that Sil-Glyde is decently good for rubber parts, but terrible for metal parts.

Perhaps it's a characteristic of silicones in general, but Sil-Glyde also has a tendency to be absorbed by rubber parts over time, and those rubber parts will swell from the absorption. Sil-Glyde doesn't actually have very much silicone in it for its volume, so maybe it's the fillers that cause the swelling.

For the ingredients of Sil-Glyde and dielectric grease, see this link:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2991606
Scroll down to message number 2991606.
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#3116188 - 09/05/13 08:42 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
GSCJR Online   content


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 700
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Substantial amount of info and photos here.

http://www.agscompany.com/lubricants/canadian/205

Well, my fairly extensive Rust Belt experience is that Sil-Glyde is decently good for rubber parts, but terrible for metal parts.

Perhaps it's a characteristic of silicones in general, but Sil-Glyde also has a tendency to be absorbed by rubber parts over time, and those rubber parts will swell from the absorption. Sil-Glyde doesn't actually have very much silicone in it for its volume, so maybe it's the fillers that cause the swelling.

For the ingredients of Sil-Glyde and dielectric grease, see this link:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2991606
Scroll down to message number 2991606.


I am familiar with Molykote m-77, I used it when working for an Acura dealer, it still requires regular applications for it to b effective. I have used Syl-Glyde more often and it also requires regular applications, I just find Syl-glyde easier to obtain. I always seem to have a tube of it around.
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#3116203 - 09/05/13 08:57 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
I am familiar with Molykote m-77, I used it when working for an Acura dealer, it still requires regular applications for it to b effective.

Well, so does anything else. BUT... a BIG BUT...

M-77 is the ONLY stuff I've EVER used that has lasted through an ENTIRE North-Eastern winter such that the brake pads fall off when the caliper is removed in the spring. NO other substance has worked nearly as well. Nothing. NOTHING. NOTHING. Not even Impac 1000, which was a pretty good grease that you used to be able to buy in the '80s, before the company went belly-up.

Honda Canada deserves some kind of medal for developing their M-77 brake-maintenance procedure. M-77 is available from any Honda/Acura dealer.
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#3116221 - 09/05/13 09:10 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
If anybody wants a PDF copy of the Honda Canada TSB outlining the use of M-77 for brake servicing, just PM me.

The stuff is absolutely amazing. I exaggerate not one tiny bit.
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#3116224 - 09/05/13 09:13 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
AMC Offline


Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 383
Loc: South Eastern, CT
Some people use anti-seize on the face of the piston where it meets the shim to stop the pads from sticking and/or making noise. Has anyone here tried that? Anti-size certainly has the temperature rating for it. Personally, I usually use nothing on the backs of the pads. I find that Brake quiet gel usually causes a poor pedal feel and syl-glide doesnt seem do anything or lubricates the contact areas so much that they make extra noise.
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#3117025 - 09/06/13 06:13 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
hattaresguy Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 5137
Loc: CT
I'd be shocked if BMW doesn't require brake fluid flushes, if not do it.


I'm also surprised it has sliding calipers, that's kind of cheap M...



Edited by hattaresguy (09/06/13 06:14 PM)

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#3117045 - 09/06/13 06:37 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: hattaresguy]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I'd be shocked if BMW doesn't require brake fluid flushes, if not do it.


I'm also surprised it has sliding calipers, that's kind of cheap M...



LOL!!! Well, they work well so I'm not complaining smile
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#3117131 - 09/06/13 08:20 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: hattaresguy]
yonyon Offline


Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 3492
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

I'm also surprised it has sliding calipers, that's kind of cheap M...


Cheap isn't always a bad thing. It's possible those crazy German engineers may have decided it would be better to waste a few grams of unsprung mass to save money, but maybe they also wanted to keep things simple and increase the length of time the calipers work as designed without service. Were they able to apply the cost savings to better materials lsewhere and make up for any performance hit to get the reliability effectively for free?

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#3117337 - 09/07/13 05:00 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: yonyon]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15150
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

I'm also surprised it has sliding calipers, that's kind of cheap M...


Cheap isn't always a bad thing. It's possible those crazy German engineers may have decided it would be better to waste a few grams of unsprung mass to save money, but maybe they also wanted to keep things simple and increase the length of time the calipers work as designed without service. Were they able to apply the cost savings to better materials lsewhere and make up for any performance hit to get the reliability effectively for free?



Yeah, they used their fancy multi piston caliper budget for those 8 throttle bodies!!!
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#3117374 - 09/07/13 06:31 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
andyd Offline


Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 3800
Loc: Marshfield , MA
I'm liberal with grease on brake parts. Syl Glyde is pricy. I just use it for assembly I had a jar of brake grease that I slathered on the new brake parts I put on the Rat. I use chassis grease on the hubs and lugs to ensure being able to change the tires.
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#3117385 - 09/07/13 06:49 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8244
Loc: NorthEast
Pricey Syl Glyde? Ask Tegger on the price of Molykote M77!

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#3117474 - 09/07/13 09:02 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Vikas]
Tegger Online   content


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1440
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Pricey Syl Glyde? Ask Tegger on the price of Molykote M77!

My 2.6oz jar was $75. That jar measures 2" in diameter and is 2" tall.


Honda Canada's TSB says they now have some really good pricing from their supplier, so the current prices are probably lower than what I paid.

Sil-Glyde is very cheap by comparison to M-77; but Raybestos does make a competing silicone-based brake grease that is close to M-77 in price.
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#3117932 - 09/07/13 08:36 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
GSCJR Online   content


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 700
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Substantial amount of info and photos here.

http://www.agscompany.com/lubricants/canadian/205

Well, my fairly extensive Rust Belt experience is that Sil-Glyde is decently good for rubber parts, but terrible for metal parts.

Perhaps it's a characteristic of silicones in general, but Sil-Glyde also has a tendency to be absorbed by rubber parts over time, and those rubber parts will swell from the absorption. Sil-Glyde doesn't actually have very much silicone in it for its volume, so maybe it's the fillers that cause the swelling.

For the ingredients of Sil-Glyde and dielectric grease, see this link:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2991606
Scroll down to message number 2991606.


I have used Syl-Glyde more often and it also requires regular applications


Maybe, you missed this in my previous post. Not disputing your claims Tegger.
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#3122340 - 09/12/13 07:49 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
951Indy Offline


Registered: 10/09/09
Posts: 167
Loc: Indy
If the problem comes back, I'm in the "replace hose" camp. The car doesn't have to have big miles or be 20 years old.

Just fixed a 2002 F150 with similar symptoms. (After new pads/rotor/caliper/bleeding didn't fix)

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#3133669 - 09/23/13 05:25 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I fixed the problem (it came back but I found out what it was).

It ended up being scale on the top of the rotor above the fins. It was ever so slightly touching the caliper. As soon as I touched the brake and the caliper shifted, it stopped touching and subsequently stopped making the noise.

I've now however completely disassembled and lubricated both front calipers/pads/pins as well as the left rear (chasing the noise on the left side) and re-adjusted my parking brake.

If I get off work early again later this week I'll do the right rear wheel and adjust the parking brake on it too. They were WAY off. The shoes are in GREAT shape, lots of life left, but somebody had adjusted them all the way down to the stop.... crzy

With the calipers cleaned/lubed, the wheels spin freely. So the calipers are OK thumbsup
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#3133704 - 09/23/13 06:16 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
outdoorsman310 Offline


Registered: 08/26/13
Posts: 113
Loc: DE
did you make sure somebody didnt put the self adjusters in backwards!!

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#3133705 - 09/23/13 06:16 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
outdoorsman310 Offline


Registered: 08/26/13
Posts: 113
Loc: DE
did you make sure somebody didnt put the self adjusters in backwards!!

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#3133739 - 09/23/13 06:44 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: outdoorsman310]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: outdoorsman310
did you make sure somebody didnt put the self adjusters in backwards!!


Nope, I didn't. However, the parking brake has been funky (requiring a full pull and barely engaging at that) since they had the rear brakes apart when I first went noise searching and had the place that did the tie-rod/alignment for me check it out. I'm thinking the guy working on it just adjusted it to minimum and never set it. As far as I know, he never had the shoes or adjusters off the car.

Just reinforces doing it myself I guess, LOL
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#3134783 - 09/24/13 04:13 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
outdoorsman310 Offline


Registered: 08/26/13
Posts: 113
Loc: DE
if you drive in reverse and slam on the brakes alot that should tighten them up a bit

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#3135864 - 09/25/13 05:53 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: outdoorsman310]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: outdoorsman310
if you drive in reverse and slam on the brakes alot that should tighten them up a bit


The parking brake is separate from the rear brakes. The rear brakes are disc. There is an integrated drum in the disc that is the parking brake.
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#3135874 - 09/25/13 06:15 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
outdoorsman310 Offline


Registered: 08/26/13
Posts: 113
Loc: DE
oh i thought you were saying you had drums.

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#3135876 - 09/25/13 06:16 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: outdoorsman310]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26459
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: outdoorsman310
oh i thought you were saying you had drums.


Well I do, but only for the parking brake, LOL smile
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#3136588 - 09/26/13 11:56 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8244
Loc: NorthEast
Yes, his high performance BMW M5 had a special option for the rear drum brakes and he paid extra for it. Besides, calipers are really difficult to engineer on a drum brake system but since this is a BMW, anything is possible.

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#3334272 - 04/05/14 04:52 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
SubLGT Offline


Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 1813
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Pricey Syl Glyde? Ask Tegger on the price of Molykote M77!

My 2.6oz jar was $75. That jar measures 2" in diameter and is 2" tall.


Honda Canada's TSB says they now have some really good pricing from their supplier, so the current prices are probably lower than what I paid.

Sil-Glyde is very cheap by comparison to M-77; but Raybestos does make a competing silicone-based brake grease that is close to M-77 in price.


A 1oz jar of Molykote M77 is around $17 at Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Corning-Molykote-Lubricant-Silicone-Container/dp/B00B3URP1I

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#3334299 - 04/05/14 05:23 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 9384
Loc: Clovis, CA
Sounds like it's not releasing all the way. Either a collapsed brake hose or the caliper is partially froze.

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#3334655 - 04/06/14 12:22 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1559
Loc: Los Angeles, California
In case you want to try it, rebuilding the calipers is fairly easy. I rebuilt them with the OEM kit from the dealer. I used some rubber hose on a screw driver and plugged it into the union nut to prevent the union nut from leaking the brake fluid when caliper is removed; so, I didn't have to run out of fluid and bleed the master cylinder. To push the pistons out, I just tapped on the brake pedal -- no compressed air was needed. You clean everything and lube with brake fluid and also glycol grease if provided in the kit. Lube the bushings with brake grease.

The only somewhat tricky part is installing the dust boot. Just make sure that you don't forget the old snap ring inside and install the new boot and snap ring properly -- with the correct orientation of the boot and snapping things into correct grooves.
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#3335090 - 04/06/14 04:27 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
hattaresguy Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 5137
Loc: CT
I'd still do a full brake fluid flush with ATE DOT 4 fluid.

I'm still in utter shock an M5 that could see track time wouldn't recommend seasonal or at least every two year brake fluid flushes. Well I guess BMW started the no service lease nonsense a long time ago!



Edited by hattaresguy (04/06/14 04:29 PM)

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