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#3115144 - 09/04/13 08:48 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25671
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger


BUT... you need to inspect everything properly, and check the rotor for runout with that dial gauge. With your car's age and lack of correct servicing, anything is possible. This is the sort of job garages hate, but that somebody like me would find to be fun.


I don't mind doing it either, I just figured that getting a 2nd (3rd, 4th, 5th....etc) opinion on what was going on would help smile And your advice has been invaluable, so I thank you for that.

I'll update this thread once I've had a chance to inspect the piston.
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#3115160 - 09/04/13 08:57 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
Brybo86 Offline


Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 633
Loc: Chicago, IL
my bet is either rotor warped or wobble from buildup, the dial caliper is your best friend, test the rotor surface, then remove rotor and test hub/bearing surface
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#3115174 - 09/04/13 09:11 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
GSCJR Offline


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 635
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Apply Syl-Glyde to the contact points between the caliper and the pads too. Specifically, on the inboard pad backing where the piston makes contact and on the outboard pad backing where the caliper fingers make contact.

Sil-Glyde is a bad choice for the applications you mention. Molykote M-77 is the very best stuff to use in this case.


You've been on this forum long enough to know that the words "best" and "bad" are subjective. I have done more brake jobs than I can count and Syl-Glyde has never caused a problem when applied correctly to the brake pads. "Now back to our regular scheduled program." @Overkill, Perfect!
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#3115253 - 09/04/13 10:04 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
AMC Offline


Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 369
Loc: South Eastern, CT
I was having almost the exact same problem on my dad's 2002 Jeep Wrangler that you are with your BMW. I did a pad and rotor job and everything went perfect. I even flushed the brake fluid and put anti-sieze on the new rotors to stop the rims from sticking. The jeep stopped great and the pedal feel was much better. After a week of normal driving, it seemed like the alignment was off and the brakes were squeeking when driving at low speeds. Over a period of 10 minutes, every time I stepped on the brakes, the whole jeep pulled to the right hard. It got so bad that I almost had to cut the steering wheel all the way left to make a hard stop and keep the truck on the road.

I took the wheels off and found the passenger side caliper locked and not wanting to release at all. I opened the bleeder and pushed the piston back again, inspected everything and everything looked fine. I put the wheel back togther and tested it out with the jeep still on jack stands. Sure enough, the piston would press out into the pad but it would only retract about 1mm. I replaced the caliper and everything has been working great since.

Before I turned in the caliper for the core charge, I took it all apart and found nothing really wrong. I then tested my brake hoses by pumping the brakes a bunch of times, releasing the pedal and then opening the bleeder to see if the fluid was pressurized by a failed brake line. Almost nothing came out, the brake hoses were fine.

Long story short, the caliper in a 2002 jeep wrangler randomly locked up and wouldn't release. No ryme or reason to it, it just didn't want to release anymore. Replacing the caliper fixed the problem. If just buying a new caliper is too expensive for you, a rebuild should fix it.
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#3115469 - 09/05/13 07:18 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
Tegger Offline


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1373
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
You've been on this forum long enough to know that the words "best" and "bad" are subjective. I have done more brake jobs than I can count and Syl-Glyde has never caused a problem when applied correctly to the brake pads.

I do not use the terms "best" and "bad" lightly; I mean what I say, here. Sil-Glyde does not prevent rust. If anything, it seems to promote rust. It's a rubber lubricant only.

The point of applying grease to the piston/shim interface and caliper/shim interface is to prevent rust in those locations. M-77 is the very best I've ever found for this application, and Sil-Glyde is the very poorest choice. I speak from personal Rust Belt experience on these things.

Since Honda brakes have had long-standing and notoriously awful problems with corrosion in the Rust Belt, Honda Canada did extensive research into a solution. They put out a TSB on the solution they developed. I've tried it, and it beats -- hands down -- anything I've ever tried in 20 years of fighting with brake rust. The principle of the Honda solution will work on any brake assembly.
_________________________
1991 Acura Integra - 414,467 miles - Mobil 1 5W-30, Honda OEM filter - **SOLD**
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#3115658 - 09/05/13 11:11 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
hattaresguy Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 4871
Loc: CT
When was the brake fluid last changed? Should be done at minimum every 2 years.

Also don't turn German rotors, they are probably right at the min spec. Also how old are the brake houses? Those are probably getting tired as well.

I assume these are fixed calipers? One of the pistons is probably just sticking a bit.

If you suspect one is sticking a bit after you drive the car shoot the rotors with a thermometer and see if their is a big temperature variation.

German cars, especially high performance German cars are very sensitive about the brakes being in spec. It doesn't take much, a tire shop with an impact set to a million foot pounds can warp a rotor.


Edited by hattaresguy (09/05/13 11:15 AM)

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#3115691 - 09/05/13 11:39 AM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
GSCJR Offline


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 635
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
You've been on this forum long enough to know that the words "best" and "bad" are subjective. I have done more brake jobs than I can count and Syl-Glyde has never caused a problem when applied correctly to the brake pads.

I do not use the terms "best" and "bad" lightly; I mean what I say, here. Sil-Glyde does not prevent rust. If anything, it seems to promote rust. It's a rubber lubricant only.

The point of applying grease to the piston/shim interface and caliper/shim interface is to prevent rust in those locations. M-77 is the very best I've ever found for this application, and Sil-Glyde is the very poorest choice. I speak from personal Rust Belt experience on these things.

Since Honda brakes have had long-standing and notoriously awful problems with corrosion in the Rust Belt, Honda Canada did extensive research into a solution. They put out a TSB on the solution they developed. I've tried it, and it beats -- hands down -- anything I've ever tried in 20 years of fighting with brake rust. The principle of the Honda solution will work on any brake assembly.


Substantial amount of info and photos here.

http://www.agscompany.com/lubricants/canadian/205
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#3115793 - 09/05/13 01:38 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: hattaresguy]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25671
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
When was the brake fluid last changed? Should be done at minimum every 2 years.


I'm going to say never, as I don't think it is part of BMW's "Scheduled maintenance" and the car was dealer maintained until I got it. If it IS part of that though, then it would have been changed whenever BMW called for it.

Quote:
Also don't turn German rotors, they are probably right at the min spec.


They are at the min spec now (after turning), but they aren't pulsing or doing anything funky.

Quote:
Also how old are the brake houses? Those are probably getting tired as well.


Original, but they look to be in great shape.

Quote:
I assume these are fixed calipers? One of the pistons is probably just sticking a bit.


Nope, floating. And they have big singles, not twin piston.

Quote:
If you suspect one is sticking a bit after you drive the car shoot the rotors with a thermometer and see if their is a big temperature variation.


Good idea, I'll see if I can borrow my buddy's IR gun.

Quote:
German cars, especially high performance German cars are very sensitive about the brakes being in spec. It doesn't take much, a tire shop with an impact set to a million foot pounds can warp a rotor.


And that has been a problem actually. The shop I deal with, who is great with pretty much everything, was using the torque stick on my wheels. They stopped doing that when the car had to go up to BMW to get one of the wheel locks off because the key broke, LOL! They now use a torque wrench, like I use, and put them at 88lb-ft.

BTW, the squeaking is less today. I'm wondering if the disassembly and cleaning up of everything has worked to alleviate the issue shrug
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#3116023 - 09/05/13 06:25 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 8982
Loc: OH
My first suggestion was going to be that you live with the noise for a couple of weeks and a couple of weeks of driving and see whether it doesn't fix itself.
Minor brake noise problems will often do that, and it's not as though you would have been creating any hazard for yourself or others, since you obviously have adequate clamping force to stop the car.
Leave this alone for another week and then post back as to whether the irritating squeal and stickiness are both gone.
I'd lay odds that they will be.
What's really causing this problem?
Who knows, but I do know that you could drop a lot of money, and have already dropped a lot of time on a problem that will likely resolve itself.
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#3116164 - 09/05/13 08:21 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
Tegger Offline


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1373
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Substantial amount of info and photos here.

http://www.agscompany.com/lubricants/canadian/205

Well, my fairly extensive Rust Belt experience is that Sil-Glyde is decently good for rubber parts, but terrible for metal parts.

Perhaps it's a characteristic of silicones in general, but Sil-Glyde also has a tendency to be absorbed by rubber parts over time, and those rubber parts will swell from the absorption. Sil-Glyde doesn't actually have very much silicone in it for its volume, so maybe it's the fillers that cause the swelling.

For the ingredients of Sil-Glyde and dielectric grease, see this link:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2991606
Scroll down to message number 2991606.
_________________________
1991 Acura Integra - 414,467 miles - Mobil 1 5W-30, Honda OEM filter - **SOLD**
2013 Toyota RAV4 - 14,000 miles - Toyota 0W-20, Toyota filter

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#3116188 - 09/05/13 08:42 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
GSCJR Offline


Registered: 01/20/13
Posts: 635
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Substantial amount of info and photos here.

http://www.agscompany.com/lubricants/canadian/205

Well, my fairly extensive Rust Belt experience is that Sil-Glyde is decently good for rubber parts, but terrible for metal parts.

Perhaps it's a characteristic of silicones in general, but Sil-Glyde also has a tendency to be absorbed by rubber parts over time, and those rubber parts will swell from the absorption. Sil-Glyde doesn't actually have very much silicone in it for its volume, so maybe it's the fillers that cause the swelling.

For the ingredients of Sil-Glyde and dielectric grease, see this link:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2991606
Scroll down to message number 2991606.


I am familiar with Molykote m-77, I used it when working for an Acura dealer, it still requires regular applications for it to b effective. I have used Syl-Glyde more often and it also requires regular applications, I just find Syl-glyde easier to obtain. I always seem to have a tube of it around.
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#3116203 - 09/05/13 08:57 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: GSCJR]
Tegger Offline


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1373
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
I am familiar with Molykote m-77, I used it when working for an Acura dealer, it still requires regular applications for it to b effective.

Well, so does anything else. BUT... a BIG BUT...

M-77 is the ONLY stuff I've EVER used that has lasted through an ENTIRE North-Eastern winter such that the brake pads fall off when the caliper is removed in the spring. NO other substance has worked nearly as well. Nothing. NOTHING. NOTHING. Not even Impac 1000, which was a pretty good grease that you used to be able to buy in the '80s, before the company went belly-up.

Honda Canada deserves some kind of medal for developing their M-77 brake-maintenance procedure. M-77 is available from any Honda/Acura dealer.
_________________________
1991 Acura Integra - 414,467 miles - Mobil 1 5W-30, Honda OEM filter - **SOLD**
2013 Toyota RAV4 - 14,000 miles - Toyota 0W-20, Toyota filter

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#3116221 - 09/05/13 09:10 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: Tegger]
Tegger Offline


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1373
Loc: Canada
If anybody wants a PDF copy of the Honda Canada TSB outlining the use of M-77 for brake servicing, just PM me.

The stuff is absolutely amazing. I exaggerate not one tiny bit.
_________________________
1991 Acura Integra - 414,467 miles - Mobil 1 5W-30, Honda OEM filter - **SOLD**
2013 Toyota RAV4 - 14,000 miles - Toyota 0W-20, Toyota filter

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#3116224 - 09/05/13 09:13 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
AMC Offline


Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 369
Loc: South Eastern, CT
Some people use anti-seize on the face of the piston where it meets the shim to stop the pads from sticking and/or making noise. Has anyone here tried that? Anti-size certainly has the temperature rating for it. Personally, I usually use nothing on the backs of the pads. I find that Brake quiet gel usually causes a poor pedal feel and syl-glide doesnt seem do anything or lubricates the contact areas so much that they make extra noise.
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#3117025 - 09/06/13 06:13 PM Re: Seizing caliper? [Re: OVERKILL]
hattaresguy Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 4871
Loc: CT
I'd be shocked if BMW doesn't require brake fluid flushes, if not do it.


I'm also surprised it has sliding calipers, that's kind of cheap M...



Edited by hattaresguy (09/06/13 06:14 PM)

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