50% of wear at startup - synthetic vs conventional

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

actionstan

Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
488
Location
Ohio
Hello All,

With my new car (2013 kia forte 10,000 miles) I have decided to go with the "Severe" OCI even though I meet basically all of the "Normal" schedule guides EXCEPT "I drive in a place where corrosive or salt is used on the road", granted this is only in the winter, I feel it will be easier to just stick with severe to protect my warranty.

This basically a follow up to a question another user has asked in the past "Is there any benefit to Synthetic in a normal OCI" most of the answers where no that it was not worth it.

The question:

If the 50% of wear at start-up statement is true, and if synthetic truly has better flow properties and detergents, Isn't it technically still a better choice for a normal OCI? Or is this all marketing hype and gimmicks? And maybe a syn-blend is the best of both worlds for this app(Pennzoil syn-blend)?

I really want this car to hold out for the long term, much longer than the warranty period, once I'm out of my warranty i fully plan on following the "Normal" schedule as I don't see how salt will affect a OCI, as long as a decent air filter is in place. But the first 100k miles i want to make sure as little wear as possible helps, So let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!
 
Others will disagree but I believe synthetic IS better. Better base stocks, better add pack, better flow properties....BETTER! Even with my driving style (1 miles trips 5-10 times a day), I only run full synthetic. PP 0w20 for me!
 
Follow the recommended grade by the manufacturer. I have no idea where the 50% decreased wear number came from but as gregk24 said, there is little question that most major "syns" have better cold flow characteristics than their group II counterparts. To me, I dont care to spend the extra few bucks it takes to buy "syn" when it is on sale. Will it make a "50%" wear difference? I seriously doubt it is that much, but every little bit counts for something I guess.
 
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Follow the recommended grade by the manufacturer. I have no idea where the 50% decreased wear number came from but as gregk24 said, there is little question that most major "syns" have better cold flow characteristics than their group II counterparts. To me, I dont care to spend the extra few bucks it takes to buy "syn" when it is on sale. Will it make a "50%" wear difference? I seriously doubt it is that much, but every little bit counts for something I guess.


Sorry, I wasn't implying that synthetic will make a 50% difference. But common advertising says that 50% of wear occurs at start-up, since Synthetic has better flow properties it must reduce this number some..
 
Chubbs1 Just curious why your running M1 0w40 on your Hyundai gls doesn't that engine spec 5w20? I thought the 2.0T specd for 0w40?

My girlfriends 12 gls has had 5w20 QS UD every 3k since new has 36k on it now and the uoa's look good. Because the engine is DI I change the oil more frequently at 3k. Blackstone says I can go 4-5 but I just stick to the 3k to be safe.


Sorry if I thread jacked didn't mean to.

Just curious.

Jeff
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: actionstan
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Follow the recommended grade by the manufacturer. I have no idea where the 50% decreased wear number came from but as gregk24 said, there is little question that most major "syns" have better cold flow characteristics than their group II counterparts. To me, I dont care to spend the extra few bucks it takes to buy "syn" when it is on sale. Will it make a "50%" wear difference? I seriously doubt it is that much, but every little bit counts for something I guess.


Sorry, I wasn't implying that synthetic will make a 50% difference. But common advertising says that 50% of wear occurs at start-up, since Synthetic has better flow properties it must reduce this number some..

Any advertising to this effect was probably from a long time ago or is in error.

Oils contain antiwear additives that protect metal parts on startup.

And speaking of antiwear additives, I was looking around and found this:

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121

Red Line engine break in additive. Apparently a strong dose of ZDDP to reduce damage to the camshaft during break in, or at least that's what Red Line says.
 
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Others will disagree but I believe synthetic IS better. Better base stocks, better add pack, better flow properties....BETTER! Even with my driving style (1 miles trips 5-10 times a day), I only run full synthetic. PP 0w20 for me!


You tout the superiority of a "fully" synthetic then you don't even use one. Now that's funny.
Pennzoil platinum is a fantastic oil but its still made from crude oil. Not that it really matters. What matters is the performance criteria and whether or not the lube is adequate for the application.


Originally Posted By: actionstan
Hello All,

With my new car (2013 kia forte 10,000 miles) I have decided to go with the "Severe" OCI even though I meet basically all of the "Normal" schedule guides EXCEPT "I drive in a place where corrosive or salt is used on the road", granted this is only in the winter, I feel it will be easier to just stick with severe to protect my warranty.

This basically a follow up to a question another user has asked in the past "Is there any benefit to Synthetic in a normal OCI" most of the answers where no that it was not worth it.

The question:

If the 50% of wear at start-up statement is true, and if synthetic truly has better flow properties and detergents, Isn't it technically still a better choice for a normal OCI? Or is this all marketing hype and gimmicks? And maybe a syn-blend is the best of both worlds for this app(Pennzoil syn-blend)?

I really want this car to hold out for the long term, much longer than the warranty period, once I'm out of my warranty i fully plan on following the "Normal" schedule as I don't see how salt will affect a OCI, as long as a decent air filter is in place. But the first 100k miles i want to make sure as little wear as possible helps, So let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!


If you aren't really severe service then why follow that maintenance schedule. It costs you more for absolutely no gain.
For example if the current oil fill is doing its job and tbn is still adequate what exactly do you gain by changing it out early.
If you actually believe changing out serviceable oil for serviceable oil is prudent by all means,its your money but I think you would learn alot from the articles written on the bitog homepage written by DNewton.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy

Originally Posted By: actionstan
Hello All,

With my new car (2013 kia forte 10,000 miles) I have decided to go with the "Severe" OCI even though I meet basically all of the "Normal" schedule guides EXCEPT "I drive in a place where corrosive or salt is used on the road", granted this is only in the winter, I feel it will be easier to just stick with severe to protect my warranty.

This basically a follow up to a question another user has asked in the past "Is there any benefit to Synthetic in a normal OCI" most of the answers where no that it was not worth it.

The question:

If the 50% of wear at start-up statement is true, and if synthetic truly has better flow properties and detergents, Isn't it technically still a better choice for a normal OCI? Or is this all marketing hype and gimmicks? And maybe a syn-blend is the best of both worlds for this app(Pennzoil syn-blend)?

I really want this car to hold out for the long term, much longer than the warranty period, once I'm out of my warranty i fully plan on following the "Normal" schedule as I don't see how salt will affect a OCI, as long as a decent air filter is in place. But the first 100k miles i want to make sure as little wear as possible helps, So let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!


If you aren't really severe service then why follow that maintenance schedule. It costs you more for absolutely no gain.
For example if the current oil fill is doing its job and tbn is still adequate what exactly do you gain by changing it out early.
If you actually believe changing out serviceable oil for serviceable oil is prudent by all means,its your money but I think you would learn alot from the articles written on the bitog homepage written by DNewton.




The severe service isn't how I feel, but how kia feels when it comes to warranty repairs. Technically I guess I do fall under the severe schedule because they salt the roads in the winter where I live. The severe vs normal thing is open to interpretation, but to me following the severe doesn't give Kia the chance to deny me warranty repairs.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Others will disagree but I believe synthetic IS better. Better base stocks, better add pack, better flow properties....BETTER! Even with my driving style (1 miles trips 5-10 times a day), I only run full synthetic. PP 0w20 for me!


You tout the superiority of a "fully" synthetic then you don't even use one. Now that's funny.
Pennzoil platinum is a fantastic oil but its still made from crude oil. Not that it really matters. What matters is the performance criteria and whether or not the lube is adequate for the application.


Originally Posted By: actionstan
Hello All,

With my new car (2013 kia forte 10,000 miles) I have decided to go with the "Severe" OCI even though I meet basically all of the "Normal" schedule guides EXCEPT "I drive in a place where corrosive or salt is used on the road", granted this is only in the winter, I feel it will be easier to just stick with severe to protect my warranty.

This basically a follow up to a question another user has asked in the past "Is there any benefit to Synthetic in a normal OCI" most of the answers where no that it was not worth it.

The question:

If the 50% of wear at start-up statement is true, and if synthetic truly has better flow properties and detergents, Isn't it technically still a better choice for a normal OCI? Or is this all marketing hype and gimmicks? And maybe a syn-blend is the best of both worlds for this app(Pennzoil syn-blend)?

I really want this car to hold out for the long term, much longer than the warranty period, once I'm out of my warranty i fully plan on following the "Normal" schedule as I don't see how salt will affect a OCI, as long as a decent air filter is in place. But the first 100k miles i want to make sure as little wear as possible helps, So let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!


If you aren't really severe service then why follow that maintenance schedule. It costs you more for absolutely no gain.
For example if the current oil fill is doing its job and tbn is still adequate what exactly do you gain by changing it out early.
If you actually believe changing out serviceable oil for serviceable oil is prudent by all means,its your money but I think you would learn alot from the articles written on the bitog homepage written by DNewton.




It is synthetic, plain and simple. Call it refined crude oil but its refined to a high standard and is blended with PAO and other base stocks with a great add pack that make it synthetic. Call it what you want, either way its better than conventional.
 
70% of wear is startup wear. Go with the flow. The synthetic may pay for itself with slightly better mpg. Ymmv.
 
And when you reduce the wear by going to new super duper oils, 70% of the wear that's left is still start-up wear.

It's not actually the start, as thick cold oil is pretty good at keeping stuff apart (except for extreme gelling temperatures etc.), the wear is in the period while the oil is thinning out, and the additives are getting working.
 
Originally Posted By: FZ1
70% of wear is startup wear. Go with the flow. The synthetic may pay for itself with slightly better mpg. Ymmv.

ZDDP creates a coating on metal parts and serves as a "sacrificial barrier" in case the oil film isn't sufficient to protect from metal to metal contact. Of course once it's used it's depleted.

The following states that the need for ZDDP in modern engines can be lower because the lifters have less scuffing as a matter of design:

http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/oils_and_zddp.pdf

However, it pretty obvious that ZDDP should help with reducing wear at startup before there's a sufficient oil film. Even so, a "synthetic" vs a so-called "conventional" oil probably isn't as important as the viscosity at startup, and fuel economy is mostly about viscosity at operating temps.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

It's not actually the start, as thick cold oil is pretty good at keeping stuff apart (except for extreme gelling temperatures etc.), the wear is in the period while the oil is thinning out, and the additives are getting working.

At cold temp's it is the start that contributes to engine wear, particularly in the valve train. Even the lightest 0W-20 oil you can buy is still way heavier than optimum; heavier grades just exacerbate the problem.
 
Proof ?

My POV was formed after spending an evening talking to a Castrol lubrication engineer who was involved in the development of their "Magnatec" UMA product.

If you've pulled apart a valve train, they are never "dry"
 
There are other attributes to cold startup wear than simple oil flow. Acid buildup, condensation, etc. all contribute. FWIW, I just torn down a 130K AMC/Jeep 2.5l and the cam had virtually no wear and it spent it's life in New England on any ho-hum oil.
 
I dont understand why you would consider it severe because they put salt on the roads...unlikely they will deny warranty repairs by following normal service. We get alot of snow up here (tons of salt) and i follow normal service and never a problem. Oil choice depends on you..being in kentucky i dont think you are seeing extreme cold temps. You can use conventional without issue. Id stick to normal and if you want to use syn for peace of mind than do that. Using syn on a severe schedule is a waste.
 
Two issues are at play here:
1 Any coating left on parts
2 Flow of new lubricant at start-up.
A good synthetic should be better for #2 but I have no idea about #1
 
Many believe 60-80% of engine wear is at start up. The best way to perserve your engine is don't start it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
Motorcraft synthetic blend vs full synthetic
Replies
7
Views
2K
Rinspeed
S
QSFS at 5k OCI or HPL PCMO at 10k OCI?
2 3
Replies
45
Views
3K
Overfill
H
VR1 conventional. Good as synthetic?
2
Replies
27
Views
2K
ARCOgraphite
GMBoy
Amalie vs Warren
Replies
14
Views
1K
4WD
H. Swanson
OCI for 2013 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0T AWD - Severe or Normal
Replies
12
Views
686
doublebase
Back
Top