A few 'Ricer' car questions...

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver


True, and agreed on the 'winding it out to a red line scream' can be fun, and an aural thrill.
BUT, that same HP/L 'power density', which FORCES one to 'scream it out' to a 9K+ red line in order to make said power also causes the oft mentioned and touted as a 'benefit' (usually by the import/Nippon ONLY crews) and advantage over larger displacement, and/or pushrod engines (which do NOT have to be wound to the stratosphere) fuel mileage claim to fame to take a SERIOUS hit.
Thus negating that claimed 'advantage' (the higher one revs, the more fuel is needed, almost exponentially).

True. The combined freeway and city mpg of the OHV 2200 Cavalier and B16A2 Civic Si are virtually the same.

But the Civic is a riot at 8000 rpm. The Cavalier is no fun. It does enjoy about a 30ft-lb torque advantage for its extra 600cc. It is easier to drive from a standing start, but it is no fun.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: gofast182
however if one wants an example of a stellar "old/new" engine one doesn't have to look any farther than the new Corvette. What they did with that LT1 V8 is nothing short of remarkable...power, efficiency, and refinement.


And yet, you will still have your import ONLY brethren calling even THAT (and whatever even higher performance variant they release of that y body/engine in the future) "low tech American iron c**p".

No need to speak for my "brethren". My car club buddies are well aware of the tech stuffed into that new LT1.

 

[PandaBear]

As I grow up among the ricer crowd, I can say that most of them do it because they couldn't convince their parents to buy them anything beyond an econo box and they watch too many JDM magazines.

Civic and Integra (which is the same car as Civic) tends to be the choice because they can be modded unlike Toyota and they at least handle ok unlike Toyota, and they are not big and uncool like the Mustang / Camero / Impala, etc back in the 90s.

These ricers mainly do headers / lowering / intake if they know what they are doing, or just stickers / mufflers / spoilers if they don't. If they really know what they are doing they will drop a bigger more powerful engine in there (i.e. Integra GSR (B18) or RSX (K20), thats why they are stolen all the time). They can be good enough handling but not too quick.

When these kids graduate college and can afford their own cars (and no parents telling them what to buy), they usually end up in BMW and Lexus if they have the money, or Camry / Accord / Subaru if they cannot afford. However they are very unlikely to go into a Mustang, Impala, Charger, etc because they are not "cool".

 

[Spazdog]

When I grew up, most Toyotas were OHV engines. Datsun B210s used a clone of the Austin Mini/MG Midget OHV engine. It was more reliable with Hitachi carburetor and ignition, but somehow less interesting.

I didn't think too much about Japanese cars then. I had an old Celica but it wasn't because it was a Japanese car. It was because it was cheap, fun, and it was vaguely Mustang shaped.

My stepmom had an old metallic snot green 1200 Civic. It was as much fun as a hot tub full of Stepford Wives.....but it was slow. I knew it was slow. It revved effortlessly, shifted crisply, handled real well for a car rolling on little 12" chocolate donuts. It somehow didn't matter. It was in my mind, a Mini with a Honda motorcycle engine.

My friend had a Dodge Conquest (Mitsubishi Starion) It was fast. Faster than my Daytona TurboZ C/S. That might have been when I started paying attention to Japanese cars. It went 'BOOM!' with alarming regularity but many a V8 met its demise staring at the taillights of that flared fendered Mitsubishi.

Then I saw Eclipses and Talons holeshot and hold down Mustang 5.0 after Mustang 5.0. 5.7 IROC-Zs...etc... Those Eclipses looked like they were leaving as hard as trailer queens. That was probably when the die was cast.

 

[gofast182]

There are two types of fast, there's fast in a straight line and there's fast through turns. Painting with a broad brush, if you want to be fast in a straight line you want an American muscle car with displacement, torque, and wide tires; if you want to be fast through turns you want something Japanese-branded (or German) with top-end power and a more sophisticated suspension. Could you make either one of those cars be best at the other thing, sure, but that would require much more effort than its worth since it's more of a deviation from how the cars were engineered.

Personally, I get more of a thrill out of an engine that can sound precise while screaming at redline and having all of the power be available up there. But that's just me.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
There are two types of fast, there's fast in a straight line and there's fast through turns. Painting with a broad brush, if you want to be fast in a straight line you want an American muscle car with displacement, torque, and wide tires; if you want to be fast through turns you want something Japanese-branded (or German) with top-end power and a more sophisticated suspension. Could you make either one of those cars be best at the other thing, sure, but that would require much more effort than its worth since it's more of a deviation from how the cars were engineered.

Personally, I get more of a thrill out of an engine that can sound precise while screaming at redline and having all of the power be available up there. But that's just me.


Funny
Horsepower sells cars,torque wins races. High revs suck on the street and 6000rpm clutch dumps just to get any power is not my idea of a fast car.
An RX-8 is an awesome corner carver but its not really fast. Heck my charger has almost 50/50 weight distribution and I cart my kids around in it and its faster than these wanna be fast rices out sticker cars.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

Funny
Horsepower sells cars,torque wins races.


Actually, since HP is a derived from torque at RPM, that's not really a valid statement. Two 500HP cars, regardless of what their torque peaks are, geared correctly for their power curve and weighing the same will run pretty much the same 1/4 mile time. Now of course there are a lot of caveats in that statement, but there needs to be.

I'm sure you've seen a boosted 5.0L, like I have, out-run an "ALL TORQUE" old school big block car at the track.

Quote:
the High revs suck on the street and 6000rpm clutch dumps just to get any power is not my idea of a fast car.


I agree, and that's why I'm not as keen on the S2000 as many are. Spinning it to 9K and it being pretty gutless below VTEC isn't something I consider fun. However, it still puts down some decent times for a 200+HP car because, well, it is a light 200+HP car, regardless of the fact that it makes less torque than the lug nuts on the Expedition require

Quote:
An RX-8 is an awesome corner carver but its not really fast. Heck my charger has almost 50/50 weight distribution and I cart my kids around in it and its faster than these wanna be fast rices out sticker cars.


Many of the big sedans are nowadays. But your HEMI Charger also makes a lot more horsepower than cars like the RX8

 

[SLCraig]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
There are two types of fast, there's fast in a straight line and there's fast through turns. Painting with a broad brush, if you want to be fast in a straight line you want an American muscle car with displacement, torque, and wide tires; if you want to be fast through turns you want something Japanese-branded (or German) with top-end power and a more sophisticated suspension. Could you make either one of those cars be best at the other thing, sure, but that would require much more effort than its worth since it's more of a deviation from how the cars were engineered.

Personally, I get more of a thrill out of an engine that can sound precise while screaming at redline and having all of the power be available up there. But that's just me.


I like both torquey muscle cars and high revving screamers.
The K20Z3 and the awesome 6MT trans in my SI are the entire reason I traded in my regular Civic for it. It is simply put the most enjoyable car I have ever owned, as far as being engaging to drive and it definitely makes the right noises (at 8K RPM)

 

[SteveSRT8]

Spouting centuries old stories about imports outrunning american cars in the twisties is pretty ignorant of the facts.

With nothing more than a tire upgrade my 4 door luxo sedan can maintain a pace that has surprised more than one import owner at HPDE's. Some cost twice as much!

And these are SEDANS with a heavy emphasis on luxury. A modern 2 door Stang or Camaro can blister a track and leave the wrong wheel drive import crowd for dead, the only cars even staying close are the blindingly expensive 2 door sports cars.

Read the Lightning Lap numbers at VIR in Car and Driver. Even the old Cobalt SS posted VERY respectable times with FWD!

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2013-hot-cars-hot-track-hot-laps-feature

American does not rhyme with slow...

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy

Funny
Horsepower sells cars,torque wins races.


Actually, since HP is a derived from torque at RPM, that's not really a valid statement. Two 500HP cars, regardless of what their torque peaks are, geared correctly for their power curve and weighing the same will run pretty much the same 1/4 mile time. Now of course there are a lot of caveats in that statement, but there needs to be.

I'm sure you've seen a boosted 5.0L, like I have, out-run an "ALL TORQUE" old school big block car at the track.

Quote:
the High revs suck on the street and 6000rpm clutch dumps just to get any power is not my idea of a fast car.


I agree, and that's why I'm not as keen on the S2000 as many are. Spinning it to 9K and it being pretty gutless below VTEC isn't something I consider fun. However, it still puts down some decent times for a 200+HP car because, well, it is a light 200+HP car, regardless of the fact that it makes less torque than the lug nuts on the Expedition require

Quote:
An RX-8 is an awesome corner carver but its not really fast. Heck my charger has almost 50/50 weight distribution and I cart my kids around in it and its faster than these wanna be fast rices out sticker cars.


Many of the big sedans are nowadays. But your HEMI Charger also makes a lot more horsepower than cars like the RX8

Very true about torque v. power. That's a little backwards about torque winning races because torque is an instantaneous measurement whereas power is torque over time and races are measured in time.

As for the high-revvers, I don't have to dump my clutch anywhere near 6000 RPM to get usable power on the street, then again I have an AP2 which has a fatter curve in the mid-range.

I didn't realize the Charger had such good weight distribution, not bad!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Don't feel bad, the LX platform is extremely misunderstood and under rated.

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/road-co...sa-weekend.html

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/road-co...ire-series.html

Full size 4 door luxury sedans running with dedicated race platforms!

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Spouting centuries old stories about imports outrunning american cars in the twisties is pretty ignorant of the facts.

With nothing more than a tire upgrade my 4 door luxo sedan can maintain a pace that has surprised more than one import owner at HPDE's. Some cost twice as much!

And these are SEDANS with a heavy emphasis on luxury. A modern 2 door Stang or Camaro can blister a track and leave the wrong wheel drive import crowd for dead, the only cars even staying close are the blindingly expensive 2 door sports cars.

Read the Lightning Lap numbers at VIR in Car and Driver. Even the old Cobalt SS posted VERY respectable times with FWD!

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2013-hot-cars-hot-track-hot-laps-feature

American does not rhyme with slow...


THANK YOU!!

My car was not "engineered" to just go fast in a straight line, DESPITE it's 'low tech' solid rear axle.

It was NOT given an SLA, coilover style, front suspension, and torque arm, panhard bar, and lower control arms in the rear so that it could drag race ONLY.

It did not take very many, or expensive, upgrades to these mentioned parts to be able to hang with, or even LEAVE said imports in their 'twisties', in any case, tires and wheels make the BIGGEST difference anyway.

So much for "going against engineering", or "much difficulty in making those platforms handle well".

Steve; you DO know the above was NOT aimed at you, but others in this thread, right?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Spouting centuries old stories about imports outrunning american cars in the twisties is pretty ignorant of the facts.

With nothing more than a tire upgrade my 4 door luxo sedan can maintain a pace that has surprised more than one import owner at HPDE's. Some cost twice as much!

And these are SEDANS with a heavy emphasis on luxury. A modern 2 door Stang or Camaro can blister a track and leave the wrong wheel drive import crowd for dead, the only cars even staying close are the blindingly expensive 2 door sports cars.

Read the Lightning Lap numbers at VIR in Car and Driver. Even the old Cobalt SS posted VERY respectable times with FWD!

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2013-hot-cars-hot-track-hot-laps-feature

American does not rhyme with slow...


THANK YOU!!

My car was not "engineered" to just go fast in a straight line, DESPITE it's 'low tech' solid rear axle.

It was NOT given an SLA, coilover style, front suspension, and torque arm, panhard bar, and lower control arms in the rear so that it could drag race ONLY.

It did not take very many, or expensive, upgrades to these mentioned parts to be able to hang with, or even LEAVE said imports in their 'twisties', in any case, tires and wheels make the BIGGEST difference anyway.

So much for "going against engineering", or "much difficulty in making those platforms handle well".

Steve; you DO know the above was NOT aimed at you, but others in this thread, right?


Chill, my American V8 Brother! All is well here. I think, technically, my car is relatively high imported content compared to yours. But it says Chrysler on the arse, so there ya go!

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Spouting centuries old stories about imports outrunning american cars in the twisties is pretty ignorant of the facts.

With nothing more than a tire upgrade my 4 door luxo sedan can maintain a pace that has surprised more than one import owner at HPDE's. Some cost twice as much!

And these are SEDANS with a heavy emphasis on luxury. A modern 2 door Stang or Camaro can blister a track and leave the wrong wheel drive import crowd for dead, the only cars even staying close are the blindingly expensive 2 door sports cars.

Read the Lightning Lap numbers at VIR in Car and Driver. Even the old Cobalt SS posted VERY respectable times with FWD!

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2013-hot-cars-hot-track-hot-laps-feature

American does not rhyme with slow...


I've gotta admit I'm impressed with this charger. Sticky tires would make a huge difference,and nitrous off the line would make it just freakin awesome.
I love my mustangs. Short wheelbase,5 speed but my grocery getter was built with fathers in mind.
Fathers who remember what its like to light tire rubber fires. Chrysler got this car right. Family sedan that will blow the doors off so called fast cars,all while the kids watch movies and nap in the back seat.
I was actually going to buy a new mustang but my girl gave me that look like go ahead,but be prepared to listen to me complain for the rest of your life.
So I bought the charger. This thing easily hangs with and passes 3v mustangs all while the kids do crosswords and colour.
I'm still roasting tires on my mustangs but I find myself wanting to drive the charger all the time.
My mustangs are getting sad.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Spouting centuries old stories about imports outrunning american cars in the twisties is pretty ignorant of the facts.

With nothing more than a tire upgrade my 4 door luxo sedan can maintain a pace that has surprised more than one import owner at HPDE's. Some cost twice as much!

And these are SEDANS with a heavy emphasis on luxury. A modern 2 door Stang or Camaro can blister a track and leave the wrong wheel drive import crowd for dead, the only cars even staying close are the blindingly expensive 2 door sports cars.

Read the Lightning Lap numbers at VIR in Car and Driver. Even the old Cobalt SS posted VERY respectable times with FWD!

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2013-hot-cars-hot-track-hot-laps-feature

American does not rhyme with slow...


THANK YOU!!

My car was not "engineered" to just go fast in a straight line, DESPITE it's 'low tech' solid rear axle.

It was NOT given an SLA, coilover style, front suspension, and torque arm, panhard bar, and lower control arms in the rear so that it could drag race ONLY.

It did not take very many, or expensive, upgrades to these mentioned parts to be able to hang with, or even LEAVE said imports in their 'twisties', in any case, tires and wheels make the BIGGEST difference anyway.

So much for "going against engineering", or "much difficulty in making those platforms handle well".

Steve; you DO know the above was NOT aimed at you, but others in this thread, right?


Chill, my American V8 Brother! All is well here. I think, technically, my car is relatively high imported content compared to yours. But it says Chrysler on the arse, so there ya go!


I can only speak from my experience. I've never encountered a car like yours at the track but based on the chassis and suspension I'd consider it more european-style in the engineering approach. The Mustangs and Vettes I've encountered on a regular basis are the basis for my statement (plus even though most any car can be made to go fast, the engineering of certain ones still tends to favor certain discplines even if it's only slightly). Last year there was this one red Mustang that was crazy fast on my [censored] in the turns, I never caught up with the guy, either on the track or off to find out how it could do that, but it was pretty remarkable! Hat tip to him and his car!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: gofast182
I can only speak from my experience. I've never encountered a car like yours at the track but based on the chassis and suspension I'd consider it more european-style in the engineering approach. The Mustangs and Vettes I've encountered on a regular basis are the basis for my statement (plus even though most any car can be made to go fast, the engineering of certain ones still tends to favor certain discplines even if it's only slightly). Last year there was this one red Mustang that was crazy fast on my [censored] in the turns, I never caught up with the guy, either on the track or off to find out how it could do that, but it was pretty remarkable! Hat tip to him and his car!

Even a bad day at the track is better than a good day at work!

No, you won't see the SRT8 in any of its many flavors (Magnum-super rare, Charger-fairly rare, 300C-the most common LX, and Challenger-lots of them, too) too often. I swear I know owners who simply drive them as ordinary cars never giving a second thought to their performance capabilities. They are quite comfortable and easy to like.

You are correct in that they have a heavy German influence in their construction, but the basics are all Chrysler. Only very early models like mine have real AMG parts on/in them. My trans and my rear end are both made in Germany.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Not just the SRT's...I think ALL the ZF autos came from Germany until 2008. I know the trans in my Magnum (2007 RT) did.

 

[2008wrx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1DtfgzlyUQ&feature=youtu.be

Rice enough? Enough Rice? Hope you will find some clues. BTW, these cars are in Japan. Please also turn on your speakers.

 

[dailydriver]

^^^Why don't they just turn the wheels COMPLETELY sidewayzz and have a little pinion gearset in them to drive a vertical wheel to move forward, for the ULTIMATE "stance baby stance"??!!