Inner Tie Rod Ends for 99 Avalon

[artbuc]

Mechanic says inner tie rods are getting loose and will have to be replaced before next inspection (before Aug 2014) and will start to wear tires soon.

Any tips on how to do this job? I remember reading that the inners are much more difficult than the outers and that special tools will be required. I assume I will be able to rent the tools from AZ. Mechanic also said it would be wise to do outers at the same time as no extra labor is required.

Thanks for any tips you can offer.

 

[eljefino]

RA has a rebuilt steering rack for $97 that includes new inner TREs if you want to go that route. There are plusses and minuses to this; apparently some hardened stuff gets unhardened or something gets disturbed when sleeved. A cheap rebuilt can be miserable or you could get lucky.

Though I've never done it, they say you can sometimes use a pipe wrench to get the old inner TREs off.

You can get your toe alignment pretty darn close with a laser level resting on the front tire bulges, 4 and 8 o'clock, pointing at just missing the rear tires.

 

[artbuc]

Thanks. I will not replace the rack unless it is leaking.

I did just read one DIY which said you have to remove the PS pump on the passenger side. I'll have to take a look but I hope that isn't necessary.

 

[Trav]

Remove the outer tie rod and lock nut, remove the boot on the steering rack and bend the locking tab ears on the inner tie rod back.
Put the tool over the inner tie rod then with a 1/2 bar or impact loosen and remove the inner.

It can all be done from the wheel well, you just need to rent an inner tie rod tool.

 

[kschachn]

Yes, but you really should hold the rack end steady when you remove and install the ends. It is not good to twist the rack with that torque. Granted a lot of people probably do but you shouldn't. I'd hate to get that job done and end up with a fluid leak or worse.

IIRC a 21mm or 24mm open-end wrench fits the flats on the rack. On my Sienna I was able to get the wrench on the left side to hold the rack, and to get it to fit on the right side I had to cut the wench down to a shorter length. A helper installed and removed the end while I held the rack steady with the wrench.

This is the tool that I used to remove and install the ends:

http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-45750.asp...CFa87MgodfS8AZA

It works very well, and since it is axial to the rotation you can use the published torque values for installation.

I used Toyota parts but I think they were Sankei 555 as are most of the small suspension and steering parts.

Do not remove the rack unless it is leaking or otherwise requires replacement. That is a big job.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Remove the outer tie rod and lock nut, remove the boot on the steering rack and bend the locking tab ears on the inner tie rod back.
Put the tool over the inner tie rod then with a 1/2 bar or impact loosen and remove the inner.

It can all be done from the wheel well, you just need to rent an inner tie rod tool.

 

[danthaman1980]

Yes if you are doing the inners, go ahead and do the outers.

 

[artbuc]

Great advice - thanks!

I took a look see. There is definitely some play on the passenger side tire. When I place my hands at 3 and 9 o'clock I can I feel a little play when I rock back and forth. Feels like a bad bearing. BUT, when I put my hands at 12 and 6 o'clock it is solid as a rock. I assume if the bearing were bad, I could feel the play all the way around? Does this test confirm a bad inner tie rod?

I also saw a wet area on the bottom of the rubber boot. No drips and it is actually dry to the touch. Looks like the residual from an oil spill months or years ago but considering where it is, you have to think it is a rack leak, right?

 

[artbuc]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Remove the outer tie rod and lock nut, remove the boot on the steering rack and bend the locking tab ears on the inner tie rod back.
Put the tool over the inner tie rod then with a 1/2 bar or impact loosen and remove the inner.

It can all be done from the wheel well, you just need to rent an inner tie rod tool.


Trav, how were you able to bend the locking tabs for removal and installation? Looks like that will be almost impossible with the rack in the car?

 

[eljefino]

When you get the bellows apart you'll know if you have a leaky rack. You might be able to feel it by squeezing too.

 

[kschachn]

I'm not Trav but...

You can do it. I used a longish drift to unfold the washer after prying it up with a screwdriver, and used a short hammer to gently and slowly tap it down to the locked position. It isn't a direct "hit it three times and it's locked" type of procedure, you have to give a hundred little taps and it will fold over tight.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Originally Posted By: Trav
Remove the outer tie rod and lock nut, remove the boot on the steering rack and bend the locking tab ears on the inner tie rod back.
Put the tool over the inner tie rod then with a 1/2 bar or impact loosen and remove the inner.

It can all be done from the wheel well, you just need to rent an inner tie rod tool.


Trav, how were you able to bend the locking tabs for removal and installation? Looks like that will be almost impossible with the rack in the car?

 

[kschachn]

How are you seeing the play? Generally to test tie rod ends you have the wheels fixed and have a helper wiggle the steering wheel while you watch and feel the tie rod movement. If there is movement you can usually see whether it is the outer or inner end.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Great advice - thanks!

I took a look see. There is definitely some play on the passenger side tire. When I place my hands at 3 and 9 o'clock I can I feel a little play when I rock back and forth. Feels like a bad bearing. BUT, when I put my hands at 12 and 6 o'clock it is solid as a rock. I assume if the bearing were bad, I could feel the play all the way around? Does this test confirm a bad inner tie rod?

I also saw a wet area on the bottom of the rubber boot. No drips and it is actually dry to the touch. Looks like the residual from an oil spill months or years ago but considering where it is, you have to think it is a rack leak, right?

 

[artbuc]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
How are you seeing the play? Generally to test tie rod ends you have the wheels fixed and have a helper wiggle the steering wheel while you watch and feel the tie rod movement. If there is movement you can usually see whether it is the outer or inner end.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Great advice - thanks!

I took a look see. There is definitely some play on the passenger side tire. When I place my hands at 3 and 9 o'clock I can I feel a little play when I rock back and forth. Feels like a bad bearing. BUT, when I put my hands at 12 and 6 o'clock it is solid as a rock. I assume if the bearing were bad, I could feel the play all the way around? Does this test confirm a bad inner tie rod?

I also saw a wet area on the bottom of the rubber boot. No drips and it is actually dry to the touch. Looks like the residual from an oil spill months or years ago but considering where it is, you have to think it is a rack leak, right?


I can't see it as much as feel it. The tie rod end feels solid but it still could be moving a little. The mechanic did not have a helper and he was doing pretty much what I did with the car on a lift.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Trav, how were you able to bend the locking tabs for removal and installation

A long screwdriver (an old one i use for beating on) or a long punch and a hammer. Once the claw washer is bent back you may be able hold the rack with a wrench on this one as someone posted i don't remember as i only did one side.

The type that uses claw washers are not as tight as those that are crimped, that type you really should support the rack.
Use a little high moly grease on the ball, no thread locker needed on this type.

Edit: Don't freak over a little fluid in the bellows its normal. As long as its not full from an obvious leak its okay. A small amount of weepage is normal over the years.

 

[artbuc]

Looks like it will take less time and be easier to remove the rack. Will the rack come out without having to unbolt motor mounts and /or jack up the engine?

 

[kschachn]

That can't be true but OK if you say so. For me disconnecting the fluid lines and dealing with the dripping fluid would make the job undesirable on its own, besides having to crawl under the instrument panel to disconnect the steering column shaft. Make sure you lock the wheel when you do this (and it is pointing straight ahead) so you don't overclock the clockspring. You will have to make sure you center the rack when reinstalling.

They are all different for removal. On my Sienna it is theoretically possible to remove it without doing the things you mention but on my ECHO you have to remove the suspension crossmember. If you are going to remove the rack then I highly recommend a FSM.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Looks like it will take less time and be easier to remove the rack. Will the rack come out without having to unbolt motor mounts and /or jack up the engine?

 

[artbuc]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
That can't be true but OK if you say so. For me disconnecting the fluid lines and dealing with the dripping fluid would make the job undesirable on its own, besides having to crawl under the instrument panel to disconnect the steering column shaft. Make sure you lock the wheel when you do this (and it is pointing straight ahead) so you don't overclock the clockspring. You will have to make sure you center the rack when reinstalling.

They are all different for removal. On my Sienna it is theoretically possible to remove it without doing the things you mention but on my ECHO you have to remove the suspension crossmember. If you are going to remove the rack then I highly recommend a FSM.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Looks like it will take less time and be easier to remove the rack. Will the rack come out without having to unbolt motor mounts and /or jack up the engine?


Agree. Just watched a video by Eric the Car Guy. Do not want to remove the rack unless I absolutely have to. Thanks.

 

[artbuc]

Ok, today I got into it a little more. Removed a wheel and disconnected outer tie rod end. The inner just drops freely offering no resistance to gravity whatsoever. I can't feel axial movement but just a little lateral. I found a video which showed an inner tie rod test. If it flops freely it is bad. They say a good inner will hold horizontal position because of the tightness in the ball/socket. Do you believe this is a valid test? I would think almost any car, even a low mileage one, would have enough looseness in the inner that they would drop down.

 

[kschachn]

Meh, maybe. New ones are definitely stiffer than used ones, but it's really axial play (or lack of it) in the ball joint that determines wear.

Also it may be that even on "worn" ones you can't feel anything just pulling on the joint. That's why I prefer to check them while the outer end is installed, the best way is to pull the bellows forward so you can actually see the inner ball joint and then have someone wiggle the steering wheel while the road wheel is fixed. You will immediately see any hopping or looseness in that joint.

OTOFH if your car is a '99, you have it this far apart and the joints are original... I would just replace them.

Plus you already had a mechanic tell you they were getting loose.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Ok, today I got into it a little more. Removed a wheel and disconnected outer tie rod end. The inner just drops freely offering no resistance to gravity whatsoever. I can't feel axial movement but just a little lateral. I found a video which showed an inner tie rod test. If it flops freely it is bad. They say a good inner will hold horizontal position because of the tightness in the ball/socket. Do you believe this is a valid test? I would think almost any car, even a low mileage one, would have enough looseness in the inner that they would drop down.

 

[artbuc]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Meh, maybe. New ones are definitely stiffer than used ones, but it's really axial play (or lack of it) in the ball joint that determines wear.

Also it may be that even on "worn" ones you can't feel anything just pulling on the joint. That's why I prefer to check them while the outer end is installed, the best way is to pull the bellows forward so you can actually see the inner ball joint and then have someone wiggle the steering wheel while the road wheel is fixed. You will immediately see any hopping or looseness in that joint.

OTOFH if your car is a '99, you have it this far apart and the joints are original... I would just replace them.

Plus you already had a mechanic tell you they were getting loose.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Ok, today I got into it a little more. Removed a wheel and disconnected outer tie rod end. The inner just drops freely offering no resistance to gravity whatsoever. I can't feel axial movement but just a little lateral. I found a video which showed an inner tie rod test. If it flops freely it is bad. They say a good inner will hold horizontal position because of the tightness in the ball/socket. Do you believe this is a valid test? I would think almost any car, even a low mileage one, would have enough looseness in the inner that they would drop down.


Thanks again. I will do your recommended test tomorrow and let you know what I see. My car is 14 years old but has only 118k miles. I did replace the stabilizer links all the way around earlier this year. The rears were not too bad but the fronts were shot. I got Deeza and was very happy with their quality so I will likely get Deeza tie rods.

 

[artbuc]

Installed new Deeza inner and outer tie rod ends on right side. Job went very well with no surprises. Had to fashion a tool to unbend locking washer. Inner popped right off. No thread locker from factory. Did not restrain rack ram but do not think this is a problem since we are only talking about 61ft-lbs. Was able to reuse inboard boot clamp. Used channel locks to bend new lock washer. Only bent on the 2 flats which were more easily accessible. Figured this was good enough since factory inner has only 2 flats compared to Deeza with 4 flats. Now onto the alignment!

The old inner was loose to the point where it had no ability to restrain itself against gravity. But, I could not detect any axial or lateral play. I was a little freaked out thinking the play I felt when rocking tire at 3 and 9 o'clock was due to a different problem. Thankfully, the new parts eliminated the tire play. The rack was dry as a bone. No evidence of leaking.

A couple notes on Deeza quality. Overall quality looks good. Parts are beefier and machining seems fine. Two little problems: the outer cotter pin is undersized so I used the old one and the tabs on the lock washer were too long preventing the washer from resting flush against the rack ram. Had to file them down about 1.2 mm. I am going to tell Deeza about this and see what they say. From everything I read, Deeza is growing in popularity and building a good reputation for quality. I installed Deeza stabilizer end links all the way around earlier this year. They were also beefier than factory and so far no problems.

Thanks to everyone who helped me on this. It is amazing how much people are willing to share their expertise and experience. By the time I started this job I felt like I could do it blindfolded!