Cars requiring 93 AKI octane and filling up

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Hermann
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
the 91 at Shell/Esso is ethanol-free.


I'm not sure that it actually is.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

It appears that Top Tier gas contains between 8% and 10% ethanol by volume, by rule.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html





Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


It says it is on the pumps

I'm not going by rumour or speculation here, LOL!!


Is top-tier even a standard or promoted as such in Canada?

Apparently yes.

Quote:
http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

Canada
Chevron Canada
Esso
Petro-Canada
Shell Canada

 

[y_p_w]

"Top Tier" is only at the retail level. I'm not even sure can guarantee that the tested fuel is exactly the same as the retail fuel. Refiners deal with shortages all the time and have to buy on the spot market to supply their retailers.

I also found it odd that BP was on the list but Arco (owned by BP) wasn't.

 

[xxch4osxx]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
the 91 at Shell/Esso is ethanol-free.


I'm not sure that it actually is.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

It appears that Top Tier gas contains between 8% and 10% ethanol by volume, by rule.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


It says it is on the pumps

I'm not going by rumour or speculation here, LOL!!
I have been to a couple of Shell stations near me and neither one of them said anything about ethanol on the pumps. I asked the attendant inside and all I got was a blank stare and" uhhh, I don't know"

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
the 91 at Shell/Esso is ethanol-free.


I'm not sure that it actually is.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

It appears that Top Tier gas contains between 8% and 10% ethanol by volume, by rule.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


It says it is on the pumps

I'm not going by rumour or speculation here, LOL!!
I have been to a couple of Shell stations near me and neither one of them said anything about ethanol on the pumps. I asked the attendant inside and all I got was a blank stare and" uhhh, I don't know"

Since 2010 the mandate is that ethanol content average at least 5%. It's probably been more. It makes it easier to comply with emissions requirements, costs less, and boosts the octane rating of the fuel.

Whether or not a refiner makes 10%, 5%, or 0% ethanol fuel, it can probably sell it at the same price for a given octane rating, and the use means they can use a lower octane rated blend to arrive at the same octane rating.

Gasoline suppliers overcomplying with ethanol content rules
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on...article4197860/

The biggest complaints about ethanol are the lower energy content and that it absorbs water if left too long. If you're filling up your tank at least once it week, you should be fine. I heard that water is separated by most fuel pumps.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: badtlc
The base fuel is for reference, not the top tier fuels themselves.


Exactly. The additive package (and subsequently the fuel) can still be TT without ethanol.


I'm not sure I understand this. If the base fuel (upon which TT fuels are based) are required to have between 8 and 10% ethanol, how can additives "un-ethanol" the fuel? It says at the top of that page that "These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline."

Maybe I'm not understanding the difference between the "base fuel" and the fuel sold at the retail level. Is the retail fuel not the "base fuel" plus retailer-specific additives?

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: badtlc
The base fuel is for reference, not the top tier fuels themselves.


Exactly. The additive package (and subsequently the fuel) can still be TT without ethanol.


I'm not sure I understand this. If the base fuel (upon which TT fuels are based) are required to have between 8 and 10% ethanol, how can additives "un-ethanol" the fuel? It says at the top of that page that "These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline."

Maybe I'm not understanding the difference between the "base fuel" and the fuel sold at the retail level. Is the retail fuel not the "base fuel" plus retailer-specific additives?


The base fuel is for a performance reference. Top Tier requires that their fuels meet certain performance increases over a "base fuel." They outline what they consider a "base fuel" so that you know what they are comparing against. Their base fuel is an 8-10% ethanol enriched 87 octane gasoline with EPA minimum required detergent levels. Top Tier fuels must beat the performance of that base fuel by a margin defined by the Top Tier organization.

This base fuel establishes a common baseline so everyone is shooting at the same target. As long as the Top Tier gas meets the performance requirements vs the "base fuel," it doesn't matter how much ethanol the Top Tier fuel has itself.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
The base fuel is for a performance reference. Top Tier requires that their fuels meet certain performance increases over a "base fuel." They outline what they consider a "base fuel" so that you know what they are comparing against. Their base fuel is an 8-10% ethanol enriched 87 octane gasoline with EPA minimum required detergent levels. Top Tier fuels must beat the performance of that base fuel by a margin defined by the Top Tier organization.

This base fuel establishes a common baseline so everyone is shooting at the same target. As long as the Top Tier gas meets the performance requirements vs the "base fuel," it doesn't matter how much ethanol the Top Tier fuel has itself.


That makes sense; thanks.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Hermann
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
the 91 at Shell/Esso is ethanol-free.


I'm not sure that it actually is.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

It appears that Top Tier gas contains between 8% and 10% ethanol by volume, by rule.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html





Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


It says it is on the pumps

I'm not going by rumour or speculation here, LOL!!


Is top-tier even a standard or promoted as such in Canada?


Yes....

Or did you think our snowmobiles had no need for fancy fuel standards like the tropics to the south of us

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
the 91 at Shell/Esso is ethanol-free.


I'm not sure that it actually is.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

It appears that Top Tier gas contains between 8% and 10% ethanol by volume, by rule.

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

Quote:
The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


It says it is on the pumps

I'm not going by rumour or speculation here, LOL!!
I have been to a couple of Shell stations near me and neither one of them said anything about ethanol on the pumps. I asked the attendant inside and all I got was a blank stare and" uhhh, I don't know"


This is the sticker our pumps have:

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: badtlc
The base fuel is for reference, not the top tier fuels themselves.


Exactly. The additive package (and subsequently the fuel) can still be TT without ethanol.


I'm not sure I understand this. If the base fuel (upon which TT fuels are based) are required to have between 8 and 10% ethanol, how can additives "un-ethanol" the fuel? It says at the top of that page that "These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline."

Maybe I'm not understanding the difference between the "base fuel" and the fuel sold at the retail level. Is the retail fuel not the "base fuel" plus retailer-specific additives?


The "base fuel" is the fuel without the detergent package. The detergent package is what makes the fuel "top tier".

You can deviate from the base fuel and keep the detergent package the same, subsequently maintaining the Top Tier compliance of the product, as it is the detergent package that is certified.

Make sense?

BTW, I'm basing this on these statements:

Quote:
1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 5580.
Contain no less than 24 mg/kg sulfur as measured by ASTM D 2622 or D 5453. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290F. as measured by ASTM D 86.
Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.


then:

Quote:
1.3.1.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 1.3.1.2 shall contain enough deposit control additive such the IVD is no more than 50 mg averaged over all intake valves. Results for individual valves and an average shall be reported. The unwashed gum level of the fuel containing deposit control additive shall be determined according to ASTM D 381 and reported.


Quote:
1.3.2.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 1.3.1.2 treated with additive at the concentration meeting the standard found in 1.3.1.3 shall not result in more than 140% of the average CCD weight for the base fuel without additive.


And then:

Quote:
1.3.3.2 Base Fuel. Two options for base fuel are available:


Quote:
1.3.3.2.1 Option 1. A full boiling range hydrocarbon gasoline or gasoline blending component, without oxygenates and without deposit control additives, that results in at least five inoperative injectors when tested by the method in 1.3.3.1.


Quote:
1.3.3.2.2 Option 2. Federal emissions test gasoline specified in DFR 86.113-04, into which 4-methylbenzenethiol (WARNING: Flammable solid; irritant) has been blended at a concentration of 56 mg/L. The blended fuel must result in at least four inoperative injectors when tested by the method in 1.3.3.1. the Federal emissions gasoline, without deposit control additives, available from
Haltermann Solutions
15635 Jacintoport Blvd.
Stolt Building, Second Floor
Houston, TX 77015
800-696-2542
www.haltermannsolutions.com

 

[y_p_w]

Basically you're likely to find ethanol in your fuel unless you find some specialty fuel that is marketed as ethanol free. It just makes too much sense to put it in on the part of the retailer/blender. Ethanol costs less, boosts octane when fresh, and is needed in an average amount to meet regulatory requirements in both the US and Canada. It's required for winter gas in many places.

Of course the oil companies would rather be using MTBE if it wasn't effectively banned in the US and Canada in finished gasoline. They actually produced it, and making MTBE used up refinery streams.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Basically you're likely to find ethanol in your fuel unless you find some specialty fuel that is marketed as ethanol free. It just makes too much sense to put it in on the part of the retailer/blender. Ethanol costs less, boosts octane when fresh, and is needed in an average amount to meet regulatory requirements in both the US and Canada. It's required for winter gas in many places.

Of course the oil companies would rather be using MTBE if it wasn't effectively banned in the US and Canada in finished gasoline. They actually produced it, and making MTBE used up refinery streams.


I don't think 91 at Shell or Esso falls as being "specialty" though

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Yes....

Or did you think our snowmobiles had no need for fancy fuel standards like the tropics to the south of us

Snowmobiles? I thought you guys still used dogs and sleds!

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Basically you're likely to find ethanol in your fuel unless you find some specialty fuel that is marketed as ethanol free. It just makes too much sense to put it in on the part of the retailer/blender. Ethanol costs less, boosts octane when fresh, and is needed in an average amount to meet regulatory requirements in both the US and Canada. It's required for winter gas in many places.

Of course the oil companies would rather be using MTBE if it wasn't effectively banned in the US and Canada in finished gasoline. They actually produced it, and making MTBE used up refinery streams.


I don't think 91 at Shell or Esso falls as being "specialty" though

Even Ultramar up here has ethanol free 91 octane, and they are pretty much responsible for keeping our local gas prices in check.
I use it in my OPE and my snowmobiles and don't really worry about long term storage problems.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Basically you're likely to find ethanol in your fuel unless you find some specialty fuel that is marketed as ethanol free. It just makes too much sense to put it in on the part of the retailer/blender. Ethanol costs less, boosts octane when fresh, and is needed in an average amount to meet regulatory requirements in both the US and Canada. It's required for winter gas in many places.

Of course the oil companies would rather be using MTBE if it wasn't effectively banned in the US and Canada in finished gasoline. They actually produced it, and making MTBE used up refinery streams.


I don't think 91 at Shell or Esso falls as being "specialty" though

I think of fuel as "specialty" if it's marketed for specific purposes. Of course race fuel would be. 93/94 octane is since there's only a tiny subset of vehicles on the road that can actually benefit from it.

I'd say it's "specialty" since it's marketed for people who don't want a fuel blended with ethanol. And the more that fuel is sold, the higher the amount of ethanol is needed in other fuel to meet the average 5%. If Shell or Esso (now there's a name that hasn't been commercially used in the US since Standard Oil of New Jersey was renamed Exxon) are only selling their higher octane as "ethanol free", that would make sense. The majority of their fuel they sell is going to be 87 octane regular. Since 5% is the target average from the Canadian government, if they use 10% ethanol in regular, they'll probably be well within that. The report I read is that it averages well over 5%.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w


I'd say it's "specialty" since it's marketed for people who don't want a fuel blended with ethanol. And the more that fuel is sold, the higher the amount of ethanol is needed in other fuel to meet the average 5%. If Shell or Esso (now there's a name that hasn't been commercially used in the US since Standard Oil of New Jersey was renamed Exxon) are only selling their higher octane as "ethanol free", that would make sense. The majority of their fuel they sell is going to be 87 octane regular. Since 5% is the target average from the Canadian government, if they use 10% ethanol in regular, they'll probably be well within that. The report I read is that it averages well over 5%.


OK, but these stations don't sell a 91 WITH ethanol, so it isn't like you have a "choice" at these stations (which are everywhere). Which makes it less "specialty" in my mind and more a marketing choice to move more ethanol-free gas, as otherwise, why would they advertise it as such? If you have a vehicle that requires 91 and you don't like ethanol, then you buy your gas at those stations. If you have a vehicle that doesn't require 91 and you don't like ethanol, well often you'll see these people spring for the 91 just due to that fact alone. Win-win for the brands/stations selling the stuff IMHO.

Something that is specialty is normally:

1. Harder to obtain
2. Commands a premium price

Neither apply to this product as Esso/Shell (and according to IndyIan, Ultramar) stations are everywhere, and their 91 octane fuel isn't any more expensive than Petro-Canada or Pioneer's 91 octane fuel, which isn't advertised as containing no ethanol. See what I'm driving at?

IMHO, in the Canadian market, ethanol-free 91 is a price-parity alternative to its ethanol-laden peers, and readily available, not a specialty fluid.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: y_p_w


I'd say it's "specialty" since it's marketed for people who don't want a fuel blended with ethanol. And the more that fuel is sold, the higher the amount of ethanol is needed in other fuel to meet the average 5%. If Shell or Esso (now there's a name that hasn't been commercially used in the US since Standard Oil of New Jersey was renamed Exxon) are only selling their higher octane as "ethanol free", that would make sense. The majority of their fuel they sell is going to be 87 octane regular. Since 5% is the target average from the Canadian government, if they use 10% ethanol in regular, they'll probably be well within that. The report I read is that it averages well over 5%.


OK, but these stations don't sell a 91 WITH ethanol, so it isn't like you have a "choice" at these stations (which are everywhere). Which makes it less "specialty" in my mind and more a marketing choice to move more ethanol-free gas, as otherwise, why would they advertise it as such? If you have a vehicle that requires 91 and you don't like ethanol, then you buy your gas at those stations. If you have a vehicle that doesn't require 91 and you don't like ethanol, well often you'll see these people spring for the 91 just due to that fact alone. Win-win for the brands/stations selling the stuff IMHO.

Something that is specialty is normally:

1. Harder to obtain
2. Commands a premium price

Neither apply to this product as Esso/Shell (and according to IndyIan, Ultramar) stations are everywhere, and their 91 octane fuel isn't any more expensive than Petro-Canada or Pioneer's 91 octane fuel, which isn't advertised as containing no ethanol. See what I'm driving at?

IMHO, in the Canadian market, ethanol-free 91 is a price-parity alternative to its ethanol-laden peers, and readily available, not a specialty fluid.

In California, commonly available 91 without ethanol would probably kill the supply for premium fuel. We've got probably the highest demand for premium fuel in the world, with so many cars from Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, as well as lot of performance cars from Honda/Acura, Nissan, Toyota, etc spec'ed for 91 octane. The article I referenced talked about "Lexus driving executives suck down premium fuel like it's Evian".

Ethanol boosts octane rating, with a blending octane between 104-115 (I read different numbers in different places). That they're making 91 octane is one thing. That they're making it without a high octane oxygenate is another. I'm guessing that there isn't a huge overall demand for high octane fuel. Without oxygenates, we probably wouldn't have enough higher octane finished gasoline to go around.

It's likely not about the California reformulated gas requirements, since they can be met without oxygenates.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Since the elimination of the Sunoco stations up here, many (most?) Petro Canada stations in Ontario now carry the "Ultra 94" grade.

That's pretty cool. I don't go to Husky/Mohawk nearly as often as I used to. The regulations screwed up their pricing and their offerings. Their CAA benefits got cut to the bone, too.

@Hokiefyd: As others mentioned, yes, there are Top Tier fuels here that are ethanol free (in premium) and are quite transparent about it. Shell and Esso 91 premiums are ethanol free, as is Petro-Canada's 91 octane in this province.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
IMHO, in the Canadian market, ethanol-free 91 is a price-parity alternative to its ethanol-laden peers, and readily available, not a specialty fluid.

You've probably seen me mention this before, but Husky/Mohawk used to sell mid-grade 89 or 90 octane E-10 for the price of regular pure gas, before the governments meddled with ethanol content.

For those from the States or up here who don't know, fuel up here must have a minimum average content of 5% ethanol, based upon volume sold. This is the national standard. This can be easily met by having E-10 as regular, pure gas as premium, and mid-grade a blend between the two. Individual province are also allowed to regulate ethanol content, but not in a way that weakens the federal standards.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Garak
For those from the States or up here who don't know, fuel up here must have a minimum average content of 5% ethanol, based upon volume sold. This is the national standard. This can be easily met by having E-10 as regular, pure gas as premium, and mid-grade a blend between the two. Individual province are also allowed to regulate ethanol content, but not in a way that weakens the federal standards.

Saskatchewan has a provincial requirement for a 7.5% average.

Quote:
http://www.qp.gov.sk.ca/documents/PIT/Regulations/E/E11-1r1-2005-11-16.pdf

(1) A distributor shall:

(a) blend or cause to be blended on its behalf ethanol with unleaded automotive gasoline fuel in a manner that results in the average volume of ethanol-blended fuel that the distributor intends to make available for distribution in Saskatchewan having a composition of at least:

(i) in the period commencing on November 1, 2005 and ending on April 30, 2006, 1.0% ethanol;

(ii) in the period commencing on May 1, 2006 and ending on
September 30, 2006, 7.5% ethanol; and

(iii) in every three-month period commencing October 1, 2006, 7.5% ethanol; or

(b) acquire unleaded automotive gasoline fuel that has been blended with
ethanol in a manner that complies with the requirements of clause (a)


Suncor (Petro-Canada) says that they average about 7% ethanol throughout Canada.

Quote:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on...article4197860/

Newfoundland and Labrador is exempt from the federal rule, but Manitoba and Saskatchewan have introduced separate requirements for more, at 8.5 and 7.5 per cent, respectively. Bigger markets, such as Ontario and British Columbia, match the national requirement.

Jon Harding, a spokesman for Imperial Oil Ltd., said the company’s gasoline contains up to 10 per cent but he said profit margins on fuel are complicated and subject to many factors other than the ethanol content. “We do comply with the federal and provincial renewable fuels regulations,” he said.

Suncor Energy said it meets all federal and provincial standards. The company, which produces its own ethanol, has an average content of 7 per cent in its fuel, according to a spokesperson.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Saskatchewan has a provincial requirement for a 7.5% average.

Yep, and that's pretty easy to meet even if the only ethanol blend is regular at E-10. The midgrades are blends, too, of course. There aren't too many people buying premium up here at our prices unless they have to.