VW Oil Help, Again

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I,m watching this thread with interest as I just bought a new GTI 3-door in July. I knew this was a DI engine and the intake valve deposits that may occur. I think this issue will surface on all DI engines that do not have a "Hybrid" FI system. I wish there were some reliable statistics on these DI engines to determine if some are worse than others, and some theorys as to why (PCV design, oil used, driving habits, etc...). At this point I don't know that the VW engine is any worse than the others. I'm aware of some of the products out there to prevent or treat the deposits (BG for one). From what I have read catch cans are not the silver bullet either. There are a lot of theorys out there as to prevention, and I suspect there may be some truth to some of them. I keep reading that the Europeans are not having deposits, I don't know if that is really true. If it is, why, different system or tuning, oil, driving habits, fuel? Right now I'm still researching what motor oil to use for the 1st change, probably at 5K miles. Right now I'm looking at products from Liqui-Moly, realizing that what I can get here in the US may not be exactly the same as what is avilable in Europe.
For now, I'm enjoying the car and the gas milage, my commute to work is about 20 miles one way with about 70% highway. I drive the car like I think it's intended to be driven without being a jerk or getting law enforcement involved and it is fun.
I'll let you know how it works out.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I have read about the mk7 having twin injection but have also read it will not make it to the USA.

We just won't know for sure until the mk7 hits our shores.

Keep in mind though that the purpose of the port injection is not to clean the valves that's just a side benefit. It has more to do with emissions and such I'm sure.

Jeff


Yes, we will have to wait til it gets here, but some positive signs that it will be the "full optioned" EA888 are the rated power and torque figures. The US Gen. III EA888 in the new Turbo Beetle and GLI put out 210HP and 207TQ. MKVII is rated at 220/258 which suggests VVL. And indeed you are correct about DI/MPI hybrid use is for emissions first. Evidently soot and particulate emissions for current DI will have trouble meeting EU6 level. There are approaching levels seen for some diesels! But having some fuel wash to mitigate deposits is definately a plus.
 
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Yes the new mk7 will have VVL but on the intake cam only I believe. As for the power the numbers are still up in the air for the USDM market. The car will be quicker but most likely to the weight loss of the mk7 is around 200 lbs. The power of the current gti is easily bumped by a APR stage 1 tune will net you 250hp/280tq on 91 pump without no other modifications. Any more than that on the mk6 set up I think is over kill since there is no mechanical LSD.

As for the post of what oil to use there are many good choices out there. I have tried PU 5w40 and M1 0w40 thus far. Have not really noticed any difference from the 2 but I will do a uoa on the M1 to see if it shears as bad as the PU did.

M1 though cannot be beat for its value, approvals and availability.

Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: shortyb
I think VAG has finally conceded that even the TSI has valve deposit problems as the new EA888 engines will have DI AND port fuel delivery ala Toyota FRS/ Subaru BRZ. There are several postings on the forums showing this new intake architecture, especially the longitudinally mounted units in the Audis. There was some debate as to whether or not it would be included in US bound cars, but recent press releases are showing both port and DI in text and pictures. Thank goodness for port fuel wash.


The "bandaid" solution for intake valve deposits on these cars is to use a (low SAPS) 504.00 oil instead of a 502.00 oil. In fact if you look at the 2013+ manuals, you'll notice that they quietly added 504.00 as an acceptable spec. I've been using 504.00 oil in two Audi 2.0TFSI cars (a 2011 and a 2012) since purchase, on a shorter 5K OCI to mitigate any issues with ethanol or sulfur in the fuel.

There is a Lubrizol paper on this issue that demonstrates the advantages of these oils in DI cars pretty conclusively.

As also mentioned, sustained high RPM (high engine speed) operation will help - supposedly these engines have a sort of "oven cleaning" mode if you run them over 3K rpm for 20min or more. So just take the car on the highway for a half hour and lock it in a gear where its turning over 3K rpm, every so often.
 
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Originally Posted By: dbrowne1

The "bandaid" solution for intake valve deposits on these cars is to use a (low SAPS) 504.00 oil instead of a 502.00 oil. In fact if you look at the 2013+ manuals, you'll notice that they quietly added 504.00 as an acceptable spec. I've been using 504.00 oil in two Audi 2.0TFSI cars (a 2011 and a 2012) since purchase, on a shorter 5K OCI to mitigate any issues with ethanol or sulfur in the fuel.


What 504.00 are you using/ have had good UOA with/ like the color of the bottle etc.?
 
Originally Posted By: shortyb
Originally Posted By: dbrowne1

The "bandaid" solution for intake valve deposits on these cars is to use a (low SAPS) 504.00 oil instead of a 502.00 oil. In fact if you look at the 2013+ manuals, you'll notice that they quietly added 504.00 as an acceptable spec. I've been using 504.00 oil in two Audi 2.0TFSI cars (a 2011 and a 2012) since purchase, on a shorter 5K OCI to mitigate any issues with ethanol or sulfur in the fuel.


What 504.00 are you using/ have had good UOA with/ like the color of the bottle etc.?


Castrol Edge/SLX Professional LL03 5W-30, from the dealer. It's slightly cheaper than the other commonly available 504.00 oil, which is Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30.

I did a UOA on one of the cars when it was still fairly new, POSTED HERE

There is another one from a VW floating around as well, I have it saved somewhere. Similar results.
 
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I will check the manual for my car I believe 504 was NOT mentioned just 00 02 or 05. I will double check when I get home.

If I do the dealer freebie oil change they use castrol 5w40 as stated by the service writer I just don't know which specific csstrol they use. I do know for sure they put in 5w40.

Jeff
 
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I'm a little timid in using a 30w to begin with since this engine seems to shear oil quite bad. M1 esp 5w30 may shear to a 20w after 3000 miles who knows.

The GC seems to hold up from the get go just not sure if it meets the stated 504 cert.

Jeff
 
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Would using a low SAPS oil in a gas engine be a good idea? I realize here in CA we seem to have low sulfur gas but still. Would require more frequent oil changes too right? Don't low SAPS oils have low tbn's?

Jeff
 
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Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I will check the manual for my car I believe 504 was NOT mentioned just 00 02 or 05. I will double check when I get home.

If I do the dealer freebie oil change they use castrol 5w40 as stated by the service writer I just don't know which specific csstrol they use. I do know for sure they put in 5w40.

Jeff


There's another member here who just posted about oil for a 2013 GTI and mentioned that both 502 and 504 were listed.

Dealer probably used Castrol Edge Professional OE 5W-40, which is a 502 oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm a little timid in using a 30w to begin with since this engine seems to shear oil quite bad. M1 esp 5w30 may shear to a 20w after 3000 miles who knows.

The GC seems to hold up from the get go just not sure if it meets the stated 504 cert.

Jeff


Don't look at the XW-30 number. Look at the HT/HS and whether it meets ACEA A3 or C3. Both GC and any 504 oil are going to be fine in that regard.

GC is not a 504 oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Would using a low SAPS oil in a gas engine be a good idea? I realize here in CA we seem to have low sulfur gas but still. Would require more frequent oil changes too right? Don't low SAPS oils have low tbn's?

Jeff


Sulfur levels in U.S. gas in general are not that high these days. That's not really a concern. Ethanol is a bigger issue.

Whether use of a 504 oil requires a shortened OCI is debatable - I do a 5K OCI instead of a 10K to be safe. Most of these 504/507 oils have a starting TBN of around 6, but that doesn't really tell us the whole story. I don't know how they're formulated or how quickly it depletes.
 
Originally Posted By: JetStar
I'm pretty sure 504.00 is listed in my manual.


The 2013 GTI owner in this thread seems to agree

This, to me, is further evidence that the sulfur/ethanol boogieman for using 504 oils in gasoline cars in the U.S. may be overblown.

I see no reason to use a 504 oil in a car with manifold injection, but there appear to be some serious intake valve deposit control advantages to using a 504 oil in direct injection cars.
 
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Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
40k fluid changes on the DSG is no big deal. I mean $400 every 40k? Not a deal breaker. I purchased the DSG for its performance and practical use. Quicker to 60, quicker in the 1/4 and better mpg's (by 1 mpg). To me it wasa no brainer...

Jeff

If you call several dealerships you will see that they have different prices.
When I lived in AL, DSG service was $525. I called dealership in ATL, they said $275!!!
Guess where I did it
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
40k fluid changes on the DSG is no big deal. I mean $400 every 40k? Not a deal breaker. I purchased the DSG for its performance and practical use. Quicker to 60, quicker in the 1/4 and better mpg's (by 1 mpg). To me it wasa no brainer...

Jeff

If you call several dealerships you will see that they have different prices.
When I lived in AL, DSG service was $525. I called dealership in ATL, they said $275!!!
Guess where I did it
smile.gif



Or do it yourself for $125.

Jeff
 
So if 504 is better choice for DI engines like the TSI then why are the dealers not using it? You would think VW would want to use an oil that would keep their cars on the road the longest and good reliability.

Also doesn't ethanol actually clean things? Why would it cause crud to build up on valves? That confuses me.

I will look into the 504 oil. Is it available in a 40w? Just in case it shears real bad in the TSI?

Jeff
 
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I just checked my manual and does indeed state a 504 503 or a 502 oil may be used. So am I dumping my M1 0w40 and put in a 504 approved oil with hopes that the 504 oil will help with the intake valve deposits?

Jeff
 
504 oils are "long life full synthetic" oil only in (5?)-W30 grade like Castrol Edge & Shell Helix Ultra Extra here in Europe. They are Low-SAPS and fuel economy
coffee2.gif

502 is the old spec (rarely full synthetic) for normal OCI gasoline engine like the 4,5 cylinder or VR6 like mine without DI & turbo supercharged engines in 0-5-10w40 grade. CASTROL EDGE PROFESSIONAL A3 0W30 API SL seems to be 502 compliant too... They could be often semi-synthetic... even in 5W40 grade like total elf product.
Here, 502.00 oils are cheaper than 504.00...
Longlife oils are supposed to last "30000km" according VW
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A lot of owners make 30000km of city driving between 2 OCI beacause oil is very expensive in Europe & especially they don't know that too long OCI can cause mechanical failure due to poor lubrification, sludge, etc...
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But 5W30 in turbocharged engine in hot climates or spirited drives
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...
5W40 will offer better IMHO even in 502.00 norm.
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Quality gas (here 95RON (95E10) & 98RON) & motor oil (full synthetic) with short OCI should keep the motor like new with no carbon deposit...
Some high RPM drive should maintain your valves clean too...

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