Dexron VI in place of Dex III for Toyota

[04SE]

I have a 2002 Avalon with 95,000 miles on it. According to the records that came with it the trans was flushed at the dealer in 2006 with 48,000 miles on it. The fluid used is unknown, just that 10 quarts were used.

The owners manual states the required fluid is Dex II or Dex III. GM states that Dexron VI is fully backwards compatible anywhere a Dex II or Dex III fluid is required. I bought a case of Valvoline Dexron VI tonight and the bottles clearly state the same thing and say it can be used in imports where Dex II or Dex III is required.

I will be doing a pan drop with filter change and then a few drain and fills this weekend.

 

[JC1]

Originally Posted By: 04SE
I have a 2002 Avalon with 95,000 miles on it. According to the records that came with it the trans was flushed at the dealer in 2006 with 48,000 miles on it. The fluid used is unknown, just that 10 quarts were used.

The owners manual states the required fluid is Dex II or Dex III. GM states that Dexron VI is fully backwards compatible anywhere a Dex II or Dex III fluid is required. I bought a case of Valvoline Dexron VI tonight and the bottles clearly state the same thing and say it can be used in imports where Dex II or Dex III is required.

I will be doing a pan drop with filter change and then a few drain and fills this weekend.


Use Valvoline Maxlife ATF. I've been using it on my 98 Sienna with good results.

Regards, JC.

 

[901Memphis]

I think dex 6 is a great idea if they don't explicitly forbid it. It's a better fluid over all. I would direct you to this thread for quick info.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3014880#Post3014880

 

[JethroBodine]

Originally Posted By: 04SE
I have a 2002 Avalon with 95,000 miles on it. According to the records that came with it the trans was flushed at the dealer in 2006 with 48,000 miles on it. The fluid used is unknown, just that 10 quarts were used.

The owners manual states the required fluid is Dex II or Dex III. GM states that Dexron VI is fully backwards compatible anywhere a Dex II or Dex III fluid is required. I bought a case of Valvoline Dexron VI tonight and the bottles clearly state the same thing and say it can be used in imports where Dex II or Dex III is required.

I will be doing a pan drop with filter change and then a few drain and fills this weekend.


Did you check on the side of the dipstick or look in the owners manual? It should be T-IV or DexIII. But if its T-IV you should stick to that spec.

 

[dnewton3]

I'll offer this caution, but unfortunately I don't have a direct answer to your question.


Many times companies will have a position on what is OK; typically they are correct and offer safe products. But there are exceptions and DEX VI is one of them.

GM fully states that DEX VI is backwards compatible in all their applications. However, the Allison 1000 series transmission, up until mid-2006, had seals in it that were not compatible in the long term with the chemistry package of DEX VI. Allison specifically forbade the use of DEX VI, until seals were changed over, and they still to this day to not reccommend DEX VI before a series of serial number cut-off units for both the INDY and Baltimore made trannies. So, what you have is the maker of the trannies telling you that DEX VI is not backwards compatible, but GM telling you it is. For a while, GM owned Allison, and so they "bullied" Allison into a postion of accepting DEX VI for a short time. Allison did change over seals in mid-2006. The Allision 1000 series tranny is still made at the Allison-owned Indy plant, and also the GM-owned Baltimore plate. When GM sold off Allison, they kept the rights to manufacture and use the Allison name on that one tranny. So, you see, this is very much a topic of "it depends" ... on your point of view. But CLEARLY are applications to this day where DEX VI is not a good choice for some trannies.

So how does this apply to you? Neither you nor I have any idea if the DEX VI will react badly with the seals in your 2002 tranny. It may be safe, it may not. And I doubt you'd ever get a good answer specific to this topic from either GM (they will stick to the full company line of it being OK) or Toyota (who will probably tell you to buy their fluid). The seals, if they react with DEX VI, will not go bad overnight, they will degrade over time. You'll start to get leaking around the seals as they deteriorate, etc. This might apply to both internal or external seals. I cannot assure this will happen; rather this is a cautionary remark about what might happen, as we don't know what kind of seal materials might react with the DEX VI chemistry.

You have a few OK options in my opinion:
1) any DEX/Merc type fluid is probably going to be OK - most of the reputable companies still make these the same way they used to, and so if they were good enough to be reccommended back in 2002, they are probably still OK today
2) use an Allison TES-389 approved fluid - that spec was specifically generated after GM stopped licensing DEX III, and it is essentially a clone spec for the DEX III fluids, with the added assurence of seal compatibility! You can find a list of those approved fluids at their site

Caveat Emptor.

 

[Ken2]

Has GM said that Dex-VI is good in every case (except where stated above) as a sub for Dex-III, or only for all GM Hydramatic transmissions and certain Allison transmissions?

Has Aisin-Warner said anything about using Dex-VI in their transmissions originally made for Dex-III?

Toyota used the A-W transmissions that called for Dex-III up to a point where they changed the A-W model and went to T-IV. I think the change was '03 in the Tundra (like mine), and I don't know about the Avalon.

I'm with Newton. Use a D/M fluid, and the best would probably be a D/M fluid that says it meets TES-389.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: 04SE
I have a 2002 Avalon with 95,000 miles on it. According to the records that came with it the trans was flushed at the dealer in 2006 with 48,000 miles on it. The fluid used is unknown, just that 10 quarts were used.

The owners manual states the required fluid is Dex II or Dex III. GM states that Dexron VI is fully backwards compatible anywhere a Dex II or Dex III fluid is required. I bought a case of Valvoline Dexron VI tonight and the bottles clearly state the same thing and say it can be used in imports where Dex II or Dex III is required....

Also as PQIA seems to imply in their atf pdf chart . http://www.pqiamerica.com/TIMELINE 5-23-2013rv23.pdf

There is also a recent thread started by MolaKule on the subject. Improvement in DexVI over DexIII Based on that, I'm inclined to say the DexVI will be just fine in your Avalon specing DexII/III. JMO, but I'd likely use it.

That said, I just did my third d&f on an 01 Tacoma 3.4L with 130k also calling for Dex/II/III, using Maxlife Dex/Merc ATF. Seems to work well.

 

[901Memphis]

Knowing about the seal issues I would be more inclined to recommend the Max Life dex/merc or one of these.

http://www.allisontransmission.com/service/autoapp/172/viewpage.jsp?ThisPage=3

 

[3311]

For what it's worth, I contacted Valvoline a little while ago about Mxxlife DexMerc and compatibility with the Viton seals that the DexVI was causing problems with in the older Allisons. They indicated to me there is no issue with Maxlife and Allisons and Viton seals.

Here is the email exchange:

"Hi, Ive asked this before but wanted some clarification. I would like to use Maxlife DexMerc in my Allison 2000 series transmission. I can't use a dexron vi fluid though because of viton seal compatibility issues. Is Maxlife safe to use in older(pre 2006) Allison Transmissions with Viton seals?

I also have 2 trucks that need an coolant flush would like to find/use Maxlife Antifreeze but haven't seen it anywhere here in Central Florida(Orlando), where can I find it? Is it a 2eha coolant?
Thanks,


Most Recent Update:

Good Afternoon XXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting Valvoline Product Support.

Valvoline recommends the use of our MaxLife Dex/Merc Automatic Transmission Fluid for the Allison transmissions that require the Allison TES-389 or Allison C-4 specifications. The fluid has been tested and is 100% compatible with the Viton seals that are used in transmissions requiring the previous listed Allison specifications.

In answer to the second part of your question the Valvoline MaxLife Antifreeze/Coolant is not a 2EHA coolant and is only recommended for flushes on vehicles that are out of their factory warranty. The Zerex Dex-Cool Antifreeze/Coolant is a 2EHA coolant and would be recommended until the warranty of the vehicle expires. Either of these two coolant products are available through automotive parts retailers, if the product is not stocked at the retailer of your choice please ask to order. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us via email or by phone at 800 TEAM VAL for assistance. Thank you once again for contacting Valvoline and have a great day.

Thank you,

Valvoline Product Support"

 

[SXE10]

DEX VI is quiet a bit thinner than DEXIII & T-IV it may feel a bit loose/rattly in a higher mileage trans. It's closer in spec to Toyota WS. T-IV or Maxlife would have been my choice in your situation.

 

[04SE]

I found a TSB from Toyota from the mid 2000's stating the pre-2005 Avalons could not use T-IV and were Dex II or Dex III only (It lists all models at that time and whether they require Dex II/III or T-IV). It is bookmarked on my iPad and I am on the desktop. It seems people are 50/50 on using T-IV in the Dex II and Dex III Toyota applications. Some claim instant death and others claim no problems.

Some claim MaxLife is the fluid to replace Dex II and Dex III. However, it is even thinner than Dex VI, so the 'too thin' crowd doesn't have a horse in this race. Not to mention MaxLife is advertised as replacing basically every ATF available. Dexron VI is only advertised as replacing Dex II and Dex III. At least it is a narrow marketed fluid instead of a one size fits all.

My dipstick is stamped with "Dexron II or Dexron II, Dexron III." For poops and giggles today I called a few random Toyota dealers found via Google. Their answers were across the board from Dex II, Dex III approved fluids (of which none are officially licensed anymore, only recommended) to Toyota T-IV to Toyota WS. It seems, from what I can tell, Toyota has not exactly said what to use. I think any fluid is going to work when it has to meet/beat a Dex II, Dex III specification. Heck, unicorn urine would probably work.

I did an ATF and differential drain with pan drop and replaced the filter with a Wix and then topped off. I took it for a drive and then drained and filled again. The old fluid was TOAST. It was allegedly flushed at the Toyota dealer in 2006 with around 48,000 miles. The difference is UNBELIEVABLE. The transmission is much, much more responsive, especially from a dead stop.

I will be doing one more drain/fill in a few weeks.

The Valvoline Dex VI bottles clearly state they can be used in imports that require Dex II, Dex III. I looked all over the interwebs and couldn't find a TSB or directive from Toyota stating what to use for fluid, other than to use Dexron II or Dexron III approved fluids. Dexron VI is formulated by GM to be more robust and more shear stable than Dexron II and Dexron III, but essentially the same fluid, Molakule has said it himself.

It seems Allison is the only company to come out and say that Dexron VI is not compatible with their components. I would think if Dexron VI posed a threat to a brand of transmission the OEM would have a warning out saying so. Especially when GM comes out and says to use it anywhere a Dex II or Dex III fluid has been recommended.

Bottom line, I have Valvoline Dexron VI in my 2002 Toyota and it is a 1,000% improvement over the old, nasty fluid that was in there. At some point we have to put the marketing and brain washing aside. I will report the condition of the fluid and transmission as time goes on. I have ZERO fears or worries.

 

[04SE]

www.toyotapart.com/AUTOMATIC_TRANSMISSION_FLUID_REQUIREMENTS_T-TC001-02.pdf

Here is the PDF. I was off on the date but it shows to NOT use T-IV in the Avalon.

http://www.toyotapart.com/Toyota_Counter_Refernce_Guide.pdf

Page 02-5 shows Dex II/III for the Avalon and T-IV for the same year Camry.

I am standing by the Dex VI as a viable replacement.

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: SXE10
DEX VI is quiet a bit thinner than DEXIII & T-IV it may feel a bit loose/rattly in a higher mileage trans. It's closer in spec to Toyota WS. T-IV or Maxlife would have been my choice in your situation.


Did you read the article i linked?

Dex 6 is thinner to start out but it only shears from approx 6.0 cSt down to 5.7 cSt while in service while a Dex 3 type fluid may start out at 7.5 cSt but shear all the way to a 4.5 cSt in normal service.

I think i would rather have the Dex 6 considering how much better overall it is. I am using Supertech Dex 6 in my 4T65E and its spec'd for Dex 3.

 

[dnewton3]

I don't think the vis range or performance is in question here. Dex VI, and MaxLife, start out thinner, but they hold their vis WAY better than a traditional D/M fluid. Don't let that part of the topic confuse anyone. I'd trust a robust syn with thinner vis any day.

This is strictly a question of the long term viability of the seals with the DEX VI chem package. I have zero idea what seals the Toy tranny has, so I have no ability to say one way or another. I only mention this because there is POTENTIAL for long term seal degradation.

And I would NOT trust GM's statement for compatibility, as they fully and completely ignored the issue with their very own Allison 1000 series applications. That angers me, because their flippant attitude of "fully backwards compatible" really can be interpreted to be "Your older Allison tranny is no longer under GM warranty, and so we really don't care what happens after you install our only licensed ATF."


Here's the easy way to look at this ...
Install DEX VI and you may or may not be OK.
Install a Dex/Merc fluid from the "formerly licensed" market and you'll probably be OK.
Install a licensed TES-389 fluid and you'll assuredly be OK.

As I said before, Caveat Emptor.

 

[04SE]

O'Reilly brand Dex VI shows on the label that it replaces Dexron and Toyota T-IV and WS.

I have zero fear with the Valvoline Dex VI in my trans.

 

[jadnhm]

I have no doubt that the dex vi is a decent replacement for Toyota transmissions (Aisin) that came with dex III from the factory, but we should be careful about assuming trouble from the T-IV/JWS-3309 fluids that replaced dex III in later transmissions.

I have read in other threads on BITOG that T-IV/JWS-3009 is basically the same as dex III but with a different additive package that is /significantly/ more friction modified. Transmissions that call for T-IV/JWS-3309 absolutely /NEED/ the additional friction modification (slip). But transmissions that call for dex III will not notice the friction modifier at all, so far as I can tell.

Food for thought.