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#3101371 - 08/21/13 10:14 AM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
Solarent Offline


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 439
Loc: Calgary AB
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Maybe so, but I am pretty sure these are additized oils with special anti-oxidant packages, not virgin Canola oils.

It will be interesting to see your baseline VOA, UOA's, and observation on the visual properties of this mix.

I suspect what you are now seeing is a polymerization of the Canola oil mix.


I agree with MolaKule on this - as was mentioned canola based oils require some extra anti-oxidants. It may also be related to the source canola - which we discussed briefly in your original thread.

I think we wait and see the numbers when they are ready...

Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
After yesterday's 160 mile romp, the oil is back to the light amber color it was before I parked the car for 2 months, feels just as slick as I remember it, and once again smells like motor oil.


I am a little surprised to see this. I wouldn't expect the polymerization/oxidation reverse itself with use. Perhaps MolaKule has some thoughts on why?

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#3101608 - 08/21/13 02:36 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: Solarent]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
After yesterday's 160 mile romp, the oil is back to the light amber color it was before I parked the car for 2 months, feels just as slick as I remember it, and once again smells like motor oil.


I am a little surprised to see this. I wouldn't expect the polymerization/oxidation reverse itself with use. Perhaps MolaKule has some thoughts on why?


Rotella T6 is chock full of antioxidants. As I stated before, I'm fairly certain the oil had simply absorbed water from the air as esters do tend to bond with water; it's been fairly humid around here lately and with the car barely driven for over 2 months the oil wasn't being heated to evaporate that water back out. When ester-based oils get "wet", they do get sticky, which is precisely what I was experiencing.

I, too, would like MolaKule's thoughts on this.

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#3101616 - 08/21/13 02:43 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 6995
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Great news on the oil consumption improvement. Somehow I missed that part in your original thread.
How much oil consumption and how much improvement are we talking about?
Did you use anything for oil consumption before (MMO, kreen, etc)?
Was this your first OCI with HDEO?

Also, did I hear correctly you plan to use oil from filter for UOA? Don't, as that will give you elevated wear metals and particles.


Was down to 1qt every 1600 miles at the start of this OCI, has only used 1 cup in the last 800, so oil consumption has been halved. I can attribute the current rate (1qt per 3200 miles) to my driving style, after noting that most manufacturers call 1qt per 3k normal anymore. For a 13 year old car, I ahead of the curve by a fair bit there.

I did use MMO (in PP) for the last 1k of my last OCI for cleaning, but not necessarily to address the oil consumption. Consumption was 1qt every 4 tanks of gas (roughly 1400 miles) at the start of that OCI.

Yes this was my first OCI with an HDEO and my initial use for the canola was simply to thin the 5w40 to something a bit closer to the 5w30 the VVTi cam wants; the though of using it as a means to add esters into the sump was secondary, but it was the combination of that and the fact that it would bring it closer to a 30wt than a quart of 5w20 or 0w20 would that lead to my final decision to use it. I didn't do a VOA because I wasn't initially planning on tracking it as closely as I have. I'll likely to a VOA on the next fill of it, though.

Good call on not using the filter oil for the UOA, I didn't think of that. I'll need to make a pump to draw the sample from the sump then, since I'm not planning on draining this at 3k, just sending in a sample.


A cheap transfer pump works great. They even come with a small tube for going in to the oil pan via the dipstick tube.
I'll never get under a car to do oil changes again. Transfer pump pumps the oil into my old jugs so no more spilling oil,its easy and pretty fast in pumped out the chargers 7 quarts in a couple minutes.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3101624 - 08/21/13 02:51 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: Clevy]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Great news on the oil consumption improvement. Somehow I missed that part in your original thread.
How much oil consumption and how much improvement are we talking about?
Did you use anything for oil consumption before (MMO, kreen, etc)?
Was this your first OCI with HDEO?

Also, did I hear correctly you plan to use oil from filter for UOA? Don't, as that will give you elevated wear metals and particles.


Was down to 1qt every 1600 miles at the start of this OCI, has only used 1 cup in the last 800, so oil consumption has been halved. I can attribute the current rate (1qt per 3200 miles) to my driving style, after noting that most manufacturers call 1qt per 3k normal anymore. For a 13 year old car, I ahead of the curve by a fair bit there.

I did use MMO (in PP) for the last 1k of my last OCI for cleaning, but not necessarily to address the oil consumption. Consumption was 1qt every 4 tanks of gas (roughly 1400 miles) at the start of that OCI.

Yes this was my first OCI with an HDEO and my initial use for the canola was simply to thin the 5w40 to something a bit closer to the 5w30 the VVTi cam wants; the though of using it as a means to add esters into the sump was secondary, but it was the combination of that and the fact that it would bring it closer to a 30wt than a quart of 5w20 or 0w20 would that lead to my final decision to use it. I didn't do a VOA because I wasn't initially planning on tracking it as closely as I have. I'll likely to a VOA on the next fill of it, though.

Good call on not using the filter oil for the UOA, I didn't think of that. I'll need to make a pump to draw the sample from the sump then, since I'm not planning on draining this at 3k, just sending in a sample.


A cheap transfer pump works great. They even come with a small tube for going in to the oil pan via the dipstick tube.
I'll never get under a car to do oil changes again. Transfer pump pumps the oil into my old jugs so no more spilling oil,its easy and pretty fast in pumped out the chargers 7 quarts in a couple minutes.


I have to climb under to replace the filter anyway, so I might as well drain it from the bottom while I'm down there anyway. I jack up the front of the car way higher than necessary (I can reach it without jacking the car up at all) after a hard drive to get the oil hot (to mix in any settled debris in the oil pan and so it just flows better). Since the drain plug is at the back of the pan, having it tilted 10-15 degrees back means every drop of oil is coming out.

The flow slows to a drip within 45 seconds, but I let it keep driping while I inspect my brakes, suspension, belt, and clutch, check fluid levels, and look under the valve cover. By the time I'm done getting it all back together and get the fresh oil in, the engine has cooled enough that I can pull the radiator cap and check my coolant, as well.

A transfer pump wouldn't really provide much benefit for me when a turkey baster and some fish tank tubing will draw enough oil for a sample.

Thanks for the tip, though; I'd definitely use it if I didn't also take that time to check-up on everything else!

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#3103044 - 08/22/13 09:00 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14101
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
Rotella T6 is chock full of antioxidants.



The anti-oxidants, pour point depressants, AW and other chemical compounds of T6 has been diluted by 25% as well.

Quote:
I, too, would like MolaKule's thoughts on this.


When veggy oils cool, wax crystals form, and the oils go cloudy and change the opacity of the oil. Polymerized veggy oil and by products of combustion together tend to increase cloudiness in the cold oil.

I suspect that when you ran it the heat thinned the oil out and remelted any of the thick polymer components which increased transparency.
_________________________
I told a chemistry joke....there was no reaction. smile

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#3103108 - 08/22/13 11:01 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: MolaKule]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Rotella T6 is chock full of antioxidants.



The anti-oxidants, pour point depressants, AW and other chemical compounds of T6 has been diluted by 25% as well.

Quote:
I, too, would like MolaKule's thoughts on this.


When veggy oils cool, wax crystals form, and the oils go cloudy and change the opacity of the oil. Polymerized veggy oil and by products of combustion together tend to increase cloudiness in the cold oil.

I suspect that when you ran it the heat thinned the oil out and remelted any of the thick polymer components which increased transparency.


Interesting thoughts, but I'm not sure that explains why the process occurred slowly over the course of a week in which I drove 310 miles, nor why the oil is still light, non-sticky, and lacking any rancid smell even after sitting for a day. The hygroscopic nature of esters explains both how the oil seemingly degraded, as well as the "recovery" experienced.

We could go back and forth on this forever, but the fact is that neither of us have the resources to determine the actual cause with any level of certainty, and we're likely both correct to some degree. Even if one or both of us did have the means to prove what happened, we lack the samples required to accurately track the progress of this oil (a virgin sample and frequent historical samples), in part because I wasn't planning in getting as in-depth as I have (which admittedly isn't very in-depth at all) to begin with and partly because I don't have the means to process that many sample even if I had taken them.

Next time around I do plan on keeping a virgin sample and sampling every 1500 miles. These will go to Blackstone for their basic analysis (due to budget constraints). If anyone wants to bankroll additional testing I'm not opposed to that either, it's up to those who may want the additional information; none of the testing Blackstone will do within a reasonable budget will resolve the question of what caused this degradation and recovery. At any rate, that's several months away, as I'll be running this oil for a while longer still.

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#3103505 - 08/23/13 11:08 AM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14101
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
Interesting thoughts, but I'm not sure that explains why the process occurred slowly over the course of a week in which I drove 310 miles, nor why the oil is still light, non-sticky, and lacking any rancid smell even after sitting for a day. The hygroscopic nature of esters explains both how the oil seemingly degraded, as well as the "recovery" experienced.


I thought you said after it sat awhile it had a thick appearance and rancid smell.

Quote:
We could go back and forth on this forever, but the fact is that neither of us have the resources to determine the actual cause with any level of certainty, and we're likely both correct to some degree.


I don't intend to go back and forth.

I simply gave you my assessment of what I think happened to the chemistry.


Edited by MolaKule (08/23/13 11:09 AM)
_________________________
I told a chemistry joke....there was no reaction. smile

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#3104498 - 08/24/13 04:02 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5100
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
why the process occurred slowly over the course of a week in which I drove 310 miles, nor why the oil is still light, non-sticky, and lacking any rancid smell even after sitting for a day. The hygroscopic nature of esters explains both how the oil seemingly degraded, as well as the "recovery" experienced.


This may be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancidification

Check the hydrolytic and microbial rancidity, since you are protected some against oxidation.

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#3108974 - 08/29/13 10:29 AM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: MolaKule]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I thought you said after it sat awhile it had a thick appearance and rancid smell.


Indeed, I did. I also said that after a little over a week of actually driving it, it had restored (at least in look, feel, and smell) to its previous state; I thought I had been clear about that in my previous posts.


Edited by KeMBro2012 (08/29/13 10:30 AM)

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#3110470 - 08/30/13 08:44 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
edhackett Offline


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1498
Loc: Sequim, WA
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

Rotella T6 is chock full of antioxidants. As I stated before, I'm fairly certain the oil had simply absorbed water from the air as esters do tend to bond with water; it's been fairly humid around here lately and with the car barely driven for over 2 months the oil wasn't being heated to evaporate that water back out. When ester-based oils get "wet", they do get sticky, which is precisely what I was experiencing.


I'm curious to know what esters you are referring to. Canola is a mixture of fatty acids, not esters. Esters are formed from reacting fatty acids with an alcohol in the presence of a base.

Ed
_________________________
Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.

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#3112872 - 09/02/13 06:29 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14101
Loc: Midwest
Ed,

I think he may be referring to the chemical nomenclature in which a triglyceride or triglycerol is considered a "tri-ester."

The triglyceride molecule is composed of three fatty acids and one glycerol component.

The carboxylic acids are generally the C12 to C24 acids.

Here is an interesting experiment:

Take a bottle of unopened veggy oil that has stood unopened for a year or two and as you open the bottle slowly you will hear a "hiss."

This comes from the negative pressure in the bottle due to a process called, "autooxidation," which consumes the oxygen in the oil. Autooxidation leads to the formation of hydroperoxides which turns the oil rancid.

Special anti-oxidants are needed to be applied to any veggy oil to reduce oxidation and degradation.


Edited by MolaKule (09/02/13 06:42 PM)
_________________________
I told a chemistry joke....there was no reaction. smile

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#3161667 - 10/20/13 01:54 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: MolaKule]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
So plant sterol esters are not naturally occurring?

"The sterols in canola oil are approximately equally distributed between the esterified and non-esterified forms."

[source: http://books.google.com/books?id=Mz98CP27RLgC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false]

Edit:

From the same source (paraphrased): "Tocopherols are natural antioxidants [which] function primarily as chain-breaking anti-oxidants that prevent the propagation of lipid peroxidation. Vegetable oils, nuts, and seeds are rich sources of tocopherols. Canola oil contains mostly alpha- and gamma-tocopherols, with gamma-tocopherol usually present in larger amounts. The total content of tocopherols in canola oil is higher than in many other common vegetable oils."

Admittedly, the source is discussing canola primarily as a food product, but the points are no less valid for any other application where ester content and antioxidant properties are under consideration. I will also concede that both are fond only in minute quantities in canola, but I never claimed otherwise; my claim was only that both are present, which is an indisputable fact.

Can we move on now?

Second edit: Apparently the board doesn't like the alpha and gamma symbols; replaced with long form.


Edited by KeMBro2012 (10/20/13 02:08 PM)

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#3161687 - 10/20/13 02:15 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
More to the point, my engine hasn't blown up yet. Since it's been nearly a year by now, and will surely have run past a year by the time I've put 3k on this oil, I'll be dumping it then. I'll be taking a peek under the valve cover at that time. If I have time, I'll drop the pan, and if I can get my hands on a boroscope, I'll inspect the combustion chambers, as well. You can also expect to see a filter dissection and a full analysis.

We'll see if there's any buildup resultant from the use of this oil, but if engine noise, performance, gas mileage, the dipstick, and the fill hole are indicators, I can already tell you there won't be.

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#3161688 - 10/20/13 02:15 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14101
Loc: Midwest
Was this directed to EdHackett or myself?

True, these tocopherols are (Vitamin E essentially) antioxidants, but what we find is that these naturally occurring anti-oxidants are not sufficient to prevent rancidity or oxidation in PCMO's.


Edited by MolaKule (10/20/13 02:19 PM)
_________________________
I told a chemistry joke....there was no reaction. smile

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#3161710 - 10/20/13 02:45 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: MolaKule]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
It was directed at both of you; EdHackett because he asked, and you because your information and assumption were both incorrect.

You're not providing me any new information here, nor anything I haven't already stated myself. There's a reason I chose an oil with an antioxidant additive content that far exceeds the requirements of my application; I have stated this in the past, as well.

At this point, I have to ask; are you dense, or just trolling?

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