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#3096498 - 08/15/13 04:09 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: friendly_jacek]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2470
Loc: Upper Midwest
So I'm a tool for asking "why" but you are not?

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

My (inconclusive) analysis, at this point, is that canola is a good (I'd like to say excellent, but won't without numbers to back it up) additive for a daily driven vehicle


Remind me again, what were the benefits? Any noise change, MPG gain, etc?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 188K
1996 Honda Accord, 201K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 302K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 223K

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#3096642 - 08/15/13 07:59 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: kschachn]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5205
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So I'm a tool for asking "why" but you are not?


For starters, you said crazy (twice) in your first post.
Then you followed it up by delusional and summed it up as some random idea. Some people might find it insulting.
But you are right, I forgot to say please.
I apologize.

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#3096675 - 08/15/13 08:50 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: Trajan]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14380
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Trajan
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-029.html

Has data, but no pictures of engine internals, so be warned smile


And let us not forget the context:

Quote:
The canola-based motor oil project was initiated in 1996 in response to a need for a motor oil compatible with, and nontoxic to, fragile ecosystems. The oils are composed primarily of high oleic canola as the base oil. This oil is combined with sources of hydroxy fatty acids and wax esters or estilides. Additional modifications include the inclusion of bio-based pour-point depressants and supplemental antioxidants.


Italics are mine for emphasis.
_________________________
If you fall, I'll always be there. Sincerely...Floor! smile

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#3096720 - 08/15/13 09:43 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: MolaKule]
Nate1979 Offline


Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 418
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Trajan
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-029.html

Has data, but no pictures of engine internals, so be warned smile


And let us not forget the context:

Quote:
The canola-based motor oil project was initiated in 1996 in response to a need for a motor oil compatible with, and nontoxic to, fragile ecosystems. The oils are composed primarily of high oleic canola as the base oil. This oil is combined with sources of hydroxy fatty acids and wax esters or estilides. Additional modifications include the inclusion of bio-based pour-point depressants and supplemental antioxidants.


Italics are mine for emphasis.


Yup, exactly. The patent referenced in that work, US 5,888,947 which covers specific compositions of vegetable based oils even references this problem:
The percentage of long chain fatty acids also responds to
the function of time. After 25 hours, the percentage of long
chain fatty acids changes from an estimated 95 percent of the
oil composition to 90 percent. At 40 hours, the long chain
component measures 80 to 85 percent of the oil composition.
What is suspected to be occurring is a mechanical fracturing
or dimeriZation of the polyunsaturated fatty acid compo
nents of the invention. This fracturing may be due to a loss
of antioxidants or a loss of antioxidant function at the
unsaturated sites.


Specifically canola oil which contains high percentage of unsaturated fatty acids is highly susceptible to oxidation, especially at elevated temperatures. Without a highly tuned concentration of antioxidants the oil will be likely to break down easily. While the temperatures of storage in an engine will cause very slow breakdown, the elevated temperatures of a running engine will speed the process.
_________________________
2012 Chevy Silverado 5.3L 4x4 PP 5w-30 w/ Fram TG
2010 Subaru Forester 2.5X M1 5w-30 w/ Fram Ultra

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#3096836 - 08/16/13 04:34 AM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: MolaKule]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Trajan
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-029.html

Has data, but no pictures of engine internals, so be warned smile


And let us not forget the context:

Quote:
The canola-based motor oil project was initiated in 1996 in response to a need for a motor oil compatible with, and nontoxic to, fragile ecosystems. The oils are composed primarily of high oleic canola as the base oil. This oil is combined with sources of hydroxy fatty acids and wax esters or estilides. Additional modifications include the inclusion of bio-based pour-point depressants and supplemental antioxidants.


Italics are mine for emphasis.


Ahhhh. smile
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3098191 - 08/17/13 07:26 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 982
Loc: California
I was not aware there were any serious problems with canola oil for internal combustion engines if it was formulated for that purpose.

http://renewablelube.com/

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#3098731 - 08/18/13 02:28 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Wow, so... I don't know where to start...

I guess a good place to start would be "why is this in the additive section" since there seems to be at least one person in this thread who says 25% does not an additive make. AutoRX comes in 12oz bottles and the company has recently been pushing a "fast track" dosage of two bottles; 24oz is 25% of the oil capacity of a Prius, within reasonable margins of error. Marvel Mystery Oil advises that 25% is the most you should use and, in fact, advises a replacing a quart of oil with MMO in some cases (of course, observing the 25% guideline and reducing the substitution accordingly), which just so happens to be 25% of most sumps. Those are just two examples, but there are more; and those are additives. Since I am adding Canola to motor oil, it is also an additive; were I using mostly Canola and shoring it up with a little bit of motor oil, I would agree, this would not belong in the additive section.

There seem to be a few here who insist that all I've managed to do is shorten my OCI. There are a few others who ask what I hoped to gain by doing this. Well, the short version is "go find the original thread". The slightly longer version is: knowledge. I hope to learn from this. Does Canola, being an ester stock, provide any benefit when mixed into a non-ester oil? Does it clean up carbon, sludge, or varnish? Will it decoke or unstick piston rings and restore compression? Will it extend, shorten, or not affect my OCI? Will my engine explode or will it not even notice the Canola at all? I really didn't know what to expect from this, and I still don't, other than being fairly certain that the last question wouldn't be answered with a bang.

Regarding shortening my OCI, I'd like to point out that I have seen an increase and evening of compression on all 4 cylinders, across several tests, done both warm and cold, which indicates to me that the stuck rings (caused by clogged oil return holes in the pistons of this generation of the 1ZZ-FE) have been unstuck, which likely means the oil return holes have been cleared, as well. This is further backed up by the reduced oil consumption (also caused by the clogged return holes) I have seen over the course of this experiment. That's good enough for me to say it's had a positive effect, but if someone wants to insist on a teardown, I have a local shop who I trust to do the work and get the engine back together in working order without ripping me off; you're welcome to foot the bill. Is it not typical for an additive that increases cleaning performance of an oil to also decrease the OCI when used in an engine that needs a bit of spring cleaning? I think it is and I think you all know that.

So I know now that the Canola has at least helped to clean up some carbon and varnish that were causing my engine to burn oil and lose compression, so that answers the first 3 questions. The 4th is yet to be answered, and I'll explain why shortly. The 5th is a resounding "neither", as it hasn't exploded but it certainly did notice the Canola.

I've only been adding gas to my tank for the last few months, since I wasn't driving it much (well, before yesterday's 160 mile romp) and filled up yesterday, after a little over 550 miles; 27.25MPG averaged over 20.213 gallons with the AC on. My mileage had gotten down to about 20MPG while it was still cool enough out that I didn't need AC. Compression can do that, cleaning out oil passages (better lubrication) can do that, a change in driving style (trust me there was none) can do that. What can't do that? Pure chance. If it was a 2-3MPG change, I'd go ahead and chalk it up to differences in traffic, but a 7MPG (that's 35% ignoring the fact that I typically lose 10% when I run the AC) or 9MPG (50%, accounting for the 10% loss I typically see when I run the AC) increase indicates that some situation within the engine has been corrected.

Over the last week of driving the vehicle regularly, I noticed the oil losing its rancid smell and dark color and becoming less sticky; my engine also stopped sounding like it was begging me to change out this oil. I then recalled that esters absorb water from the surrounding air, which would certainly cause all of those issues. After yesterday's 160 mile romp, the oil is back to the light amber color it was before I parked the car for 2 months, feels just as slick as I remember it, and once again smells like motor oil.

As originally planned, I'll be sending a sample in at 3k.

Until then, it's been fun.

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#3098740 - 08/18/13 02:41 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7089
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Awesome.
Thanks for giving this a shot.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3098752 - 08/18/13 02:58 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: Clevy]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Awesome.
Thanks for giving this a shot.


You're quite welcome. All of you (even those who would rather belittle what I'm doing than just ignore me).

There was one user who said they'd like to see the inside of my oil filter. I've got good news for you! Since my filter sits vertically, that's how I plan to retrieve my oil sample when I send it in. When I drop the filter to take that sample, I plan to replace it with a new filter, so I should have no problem tearing the old one down.

As for the user(s) asking for valvetrain pics, those will come too. I pull the VC at every OCI.

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#3098856 - 08/18/13 05:50 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
Brule Offline


Registered: 11/12/12
Posts: 422
Loc: St. Louis, Mo
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
There was one user who said they'd like to see the inside of my oil filter. I've got good news for you! Since my filter sits vertically, that's how I plan to retrieve my oil sample when I send it in. When I drop the filter to take that sample, I plan to replace it with a new filter, so I should have no problem tearing the old one down.


That was me. I wouldn't belittle you, but I do have concerns seeing how veg oil messed up some simple hair clippers. Maybe in additive form is a diff story. Good luck!
_________________________
2014 Camry V6 SE (QSUD 5w20)
2003 Civic Si [sold]
2010 Frontier SE 4.0 [gone]
2006 BMW M Coupe [sold]

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#3098912 - 08/18/13 07:02 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: Brule]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Brule
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
There was one user who said they'd like to see the inside of my oil filter. I've got good news for you! Since my filter sits vertically, that's how I plan to retrieve my oil sample when I send it in. When I drop the filter to take that sample, I plan to replace it with a new filter, so I should have no problem tearing the old one down.


That was me. I wouldn't belittle you, but I do have concerns seeing how veg oil messed up some simple hair clippers. Maybe in additive form is a diff story. Good luck!


Yeah, I'd never use it straight. [censored], I wouldn't use it as an additive in most oils. T6 was a good base for this first test because its additive package is overkill, by a large margin, for my application, so diluting it by 25% shouldn't reduce its effectiveness over the course of a reasonable OCI (I'm already past the 6 month mark, which is when I'd normally dump a dino oil regardless of mileage, but more on that later). My next test may be done with Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platinum or Ultra, since those oils also considerably exceed the requirements of my application.

Outside of a sealed container, all oils degrade. Dino oils typically shouldn't be run for more than 6 months as they'll have oxidized quite a bit in that time. Synthetics will vary by base stock, but 9-12mo isn't unreasonable. Of course, this all depends on mileage and application, as well; high mileage or frequent short trips would indicate a 3mo or shorter OCI for most dino oils and 6mo tops for most synthetics.

Again, I'm at the 6mo mark now; T6 is one of those synthetics that I'd run for a year, or 7.5k miles, whichever comes first. Since I've diluted it by 25% with a no-additive oil, 9 months or 5625 miles seems a reasonable cutoff. For the purpose of experimentation, I intend to be a little more detailed than "this just feels like what I should be doing" and will base my OCI on OUAs, the first of which will be taken at 3000 miles, or 9mo, whichever happens to come along first.

Subjectively, my engine is running better right now than it has in the two years I've owned this car, and certainly better than it was running a week ago. It used to lug at idle with the AC running and the resistance of the power steering when I'd turn the wheel would affect engine load in a noticeable way; neither of these things occur any longer. I've also had to re-learn how to drive this car; I've found myself having to consciously try not to squeal the tires taking off from a dead stop and I can now squeal the tires shifting into 2nd and make them chirp shifting into 3rd without over-revving. All of these improvements can be attributed to increased (and more even) compression, which can be attributed to the unsticking of stuck rings, which can be attributed to better oil flow through the oil return holes in the piston heads, which can be attributed to those holes having been cleaned out, which can be attributed only to the oil used, which would include any additives; in this case, Canola.

Unfortunately, for those of you who will demand another test without the Canola (just straight T6), I am not willing to run the series of long dino OCIs that would be required to re-clog the oil return holes and re-stick the rings, and essentially wreck the engine I've just restored, just to run that test. Likewise, I'm not willing to run a 5w40 straight in this engine, which calls for 5w30, as it has variable valve timingwhich makes use of oil pressure; varying the viscosity too much will affect that. Any of you are more than welcome to find me an oil-burning 8th gen Corolla for a dry run and I'll happily foot the bill for 4qt of T6 and 2 tanks of gas (that's how long it took my T6+Canola blend to resolve the issue). Of course, the car would be yours to keep afterward, regardless of outcome.

If anyone still wants to tell me what I'm doing wrong here, go right ahead. I'm not selling anything (I don't work for Shell or Wesson) and I'm happy enough with the way my experiment is going, so for all anyone may say I'm doing wrong, I'm clearly doing something very right. I'm not here for validation, I'm here to share my experience.

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#3099441 - 08/19/13 09:58 AM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
Shaman Offline


Registered: 07/27/04
Posts: 2298
Loc: Frankfort, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012

If anyone still wants to tell me what I'm doing wrong here, go right ahead.


You aren't using the ignore button. smile Makes life easier when you see posters that really have nothing beneficial to offer. About to add one.

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#3099506 - 08/19/13 11:14 AM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4496
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Great follow up Kembro thanks!
_________________________
2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 @ 121k Pennzoil HM 10w30
Napa Silver 31515
KIA Sedona 38k, Chevy Lumina 171k, Chrysler Sebring 171k, Ford Ranger 175k!

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#3099606 - 08/19/13 01:26 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: KeMBro2012]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5205
Loc: southeast US
Great news on the oil consumption improvement. Somehow I missed that part in your original thread.
How much oil consumption and how much improvement are we talking about?
Did you use anything for oil consumption before (MMO, kreen, etc)?
Was this your first OCI with HDEO?

Also, did I hear correctly you plan to use oil from filter for UOA? Don't, as that will give you elevated wear metals and particles.

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#3099934 - 08/19/13 07:44 PM Re: Canola Follow-up [Re: friendly_jacek]
KeMBro2012 Offline


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 430
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Great news on the oil consumption improvement. Somehow I missed that part in your original thread.
How much oil consumption and how much improvement are we talking about?
Did you use anything for oil consumption before (MMO, kreen, etc)?
Was this your first OCI with HDEO?

Also, did I hear correctly you plan to use oil from filter for UOA? Don't, as that will give you elevated wear metals and particles.


Was down to 1qt every 1600 miles at the start of this OCI, has only used 1 cup in the last 800, so oil consumption has been halved. I can attribute the current rate (1qt per 3200 miles) to my driving style, after noting that most manufacturers call 1qt per 3k normal anymore. For a 13 year old car, I ahead of the curve by a fair bit there.

I did use MMO (in PP) for the last 1k of my last OCI for cleaning, but not necessarily to address the oil consumption. Consumption was 1qt every 4 tanks of gas (roughly 1400 miles) at the start of that OCI.

Yes this was my first OCI with an HDEO and my initial use for the canola was simply to thin the 5w40 to something a bit closer to the 5w30 the VVTi cam wants; the though of using it as a means to add esters into the sump was secondary, but it was the combination of that and the fact that it would bring it closer to a 30wt than a quart of 5w20 or 0w20 would that lead to my final decision to use it. I didn't do a VOA because I wasn't initially planning on tracking it as closely as I have. I'll likely to a VOA on the next fill of it, though.

Good call on not using the filter oil for the UOA, I didn't think of that. I'll need to make a pump to draw the sample from the sump then, since I'm not planning on draining this at 3k, just sending in a sample.

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