Fram that didn't prime on its own [anecdote]

[Cardenio327]

Before everyone hauls out their OCOD flame throwers & suits, I'll comment that I'm not blaming this on Fram, or the quality of their products. I'd rather not start an OCOD flame war, this is just something that happened to me today, probably a coincidence.

Until yesterday I've never used a Fram oil filter on my own or my customer's vehicles. Fram's cardboard end caps don't bother me one bit; what I don't care for is their association with Autolite and Autolite's worthless excuses for spark plugs. In November I picked up a Fram Ultra for my Fit at an Autozone near Cholula for $9, and yesterday I installed it along with 3.6 L of QSUD.

Also yesterday, I went to Walmart and seen they had U.S. made Fram Extra Guard (OCOD) for $3. They only keep the 6 fastest moving numbers in stock; I bought 1 of each except for the PH8A which I already had in stock in another brand.

Today we got a 2007 VW Saveiro 1.8 in for an oil change and alignment, we put the PH2870A on it. I walked into the shop hearing a terrible noise while the tech was leak checking it, but I thought little of it since many of our customers abuse their vehicles. I personally checked the oil afterwards, it read higher on the dipstick than it should have, another warning sign duly ignored. When I started it to pull it onto the alignment rack, the oil light stayed on, further investigation revealed the filter had not heated up, it was just lukewarm. We ended up loosening it and bumping the engine over until oil sprayed all over.

Re-training time tomorrow. My techs follow a detailed oil & filter change routine, but since we have never had one fail to prime on its own, they don't understand the importance of observing the oil light or gauge's behavior.

 

[Cristobal]

Maybe the problem was caused by the filter.

Maybe not.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Sounds like the oil pump didn't prime for some reason. Could be a very worn out oil pump were the oil inside the pump leaked past the gears during the oil change and it couldn't prime back up with even the slightest back pressure. How many miles on this vehicle?

 

[antiqueshell]

Could be the oil pump pick up is clogged or pump is failing.

I wonder if the plastic oil dip stick tube attachment is falling apart and sending plastic pieces into the oil, and thus the oil pump pick screen, clogging it?

 

[Cardenio327]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
How many miles on this vehicle?


94,000 hard miles

Quote:
I wonder if the plastic oil dip stick tube attachment is falling apart and sending plastic pieces into the oil, and thus the oil pump pick screen, clogging it?


Could be. All the cheesy VW dipstick plastic looked fine, but 6 years is about when VW's fantastic plastic starts to fall apart.

 

[jrustles]

¡¡muy interesante!!

 

[Donald]

Typically when talks of priming there is suction involved.

There is no suction involved when the oil gets to the oil filter. Its oil under pressure.

The filter is somehow defective and should be changed.

My tech (me) follows a rigorous oil and filter change routine. I start the engine look for the pressure gauge to rise, then go to the front of the car and look for oil around the filter and dripping or spraying under the car, then shut it off, wait a minute and check the dipstick.

 

[ZeeOSix]

If the oil gets to the filter, the pump has been primed and is pumping. Since nothing (or very little flow) was really getting to the filter, I'd say the pump leaked down during draining, and is too shot to prime back up correctly. Unscrewing the filter helped reduce some back pressure on the weak pump, which allowed it to at least pump something down stream.

It would be interesting to put a mechanical gauge on this engine and see what the oil pressure is vs. engine RPM.

 

[gregk24]

I would never use a Fram OCOD, not because of the cardboard end caps but because of the overall lack of media and poor construction. Why didnt the tech watch to see the oil light go out?

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If the oil gets to the filter, the pump has been primed and is pumping. Since nothing (or very little flow) was really getting to the filter, I'd say the pump leaked down during draining, and is too shot to prime back up correctly. Unscrewing the filter helped reduce some back pressure on the weak pump, which allowed it to at least pump something down stream.

It would be interesting to put a mechanical gauge on this engine and see what the oil pressure is vs. engine RPM.


That seems like a long shot. The oil pump only is priming up a few inches and pumping up against no pressure as the system is empty.

Mechanical gauge is a good idea.

I would still swap out the filter as its cheap/easy and may be an issue.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: Donald

The filter is somehow defective and should be changed.


Maybe....and maybe not.
Way back in the 80s or early 90s, GM had some problems with their engines losing prime after an oil change. I'm pretty sure the official "fix" was to just loosen the oil filter off the base slightly until the pump would start pumping. There was a lot of finger pointing, but IIRC, it was not the oil filter that was at fault. Just about every publication posted at that time said that it was not the fault of the oil filter.

 

[Hirev]

The oil pump was air locked. A good rule is never let the oil pump see air on both sides. Drain slump, put oil plug in, and refill.... before you change the filter. Some cars, motorcycles, ATVs are just that way.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: Donald

The filter is somehow defective and should be changed.


Maybe....and maybe not.
Way back in the 80s or early 90s, GM had some problems with their engines losing prime after an oil change. I'm pretty sure the official "fix" was to just loosen the oil filter off the base slightly until the pump would start pumping. There was a lot of finger pointing, but IIRC, it was not the oil filter that was at fault. Just about every publication posted at that time said that it was not the fault of the oil filter.


But quick and easy to do and rule one thing out.

 

[fdcg27]

The oil filter takes no priming.
It's a passive part of the engine oiling circuit.
A better test would have been to put another brand of filter on it, or even another Fram.
I'd bet that you'd have seen the same results.
Does this thing have the 1.8 turbo sludger?
I'd wonder what the oil pickup screen looks like.
I'd also wonder about the condition of the oil pump itself.
A mechanical oil pressure gauge would be an interesting tool to use on this engine, although pressure might be fine.
It might just be a problem with flow.
It ain't the oil filter.
If the filter had that much resistance to flow, it would simply go into bypass.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

A mechanical oil pressure gauge would be an interesting tool to use on this engine, although pressure might be fine.
It might just be a problem with flow.


If the oil pump can't put out flow through the engine's oiling system, then the oil pressure will be low - assuming there is no abnormal blockage in the system.

In a fixed resistance oiling circuit, the oil pressure you see on the gauge is directly related to the flow going through the engine (assuming the oil viscosity is held constant). The higher the flow, the higher the pressure ... and the higher the pressure, the higher the flow. They are connected at the hip.

 

[fdcg27]

If the oil pump is the problems then pressure will be low along with flow.
Flow is not required to have pressure, though.
The pressure on the seat of a closed faucet is whatever the water system delivers, for example, even with zero flow.
IIRC, pressure is defined as resistance to flow.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

Flow is not required to have pressure, though.


Only in a dead-end, closed flow path. In an open flow system, like an engine's oiling system, you can't build pressure without flow.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The pressure on the seat of a closed faucet is whatever the water system delivers, for example, even with zero flow.
IIRC, pressure is defined as resistance to flow.


If the oil filter was 100% blocked and didn't allow any flow at all (assume no bypass valve at all), then it would be a closed flow path (ie, like the "closed faucet" example). In that case, the positive displacement oil pump would instantly shoot up to pressure relief and divert all it's flow back to the sump.

But in a normal engine oiling system, it's open to flow with a fixed resistance ... therefore, any time you have pressure you also have a corresponding flow.

Here's data I collected from the on-board oil temp and oil pressure sensors on my Z06. Shows how the pressure builds as the positive displacement oil pump tries to force more and more oil volume down the fixed resistance oiling system as engine RPMs build. Oil at constant 200 deg F, which means the viscosity was constant.

 

[bullwinkle]

Doesn't make any sense-there has to be some kind of bypass to prevent media blowout in the event of a totally blocked filter-has to be something on the suction side that caused the pump to totally lose prime.

 

[ZeeOSix]

My bet is a blocked pick-up screen and/or a worn out oil pump that lost prime during the oil drain and couldn't re-prime on it's own.

If the oil filter was blocked, which I highly doubt, then a normal oil pump in good shape would have forced the filter's bypass valve open and oil pressure would still be seen and the oil light would not have come on. Since the oil light came on, that means there was very low or no oil flow.

 

[fdcg27]

That's exactly what I said in the post you replied to.