2011 Honda Civic 6878mi M1 AFE 0w20

[gpshumway]

SN/GF-5 flavor of AFE 0w20 of course. Oil was run from mid-February to Mid-July, so weather ran the gamut from cold to hot. OLM was ~160mi past 5% when changed. It appears I've mostly solved my grit ingestion problem, though Aluminum and Silicon are still higher than I'd prefer, but are now in an acceptable range.

My thoughts on M1 AFE are a bit mixed. Shear stability is pretty poor, but TBN retention and Iron wear look excellent. The poor shear stability stands in contrast with my father's experience with AFE 0w30 in his Subaru Outback, which shows quite good shear stability. VI was reasonably stable, calculating out at 166 after the shearing. I had the best fuel economy ever in this car during this OCI at 42 MPG, but it was a very rare summer highway run without the bike-rack. My next trip (with the rack) dropped the car back to a more typical 36 MPG. City mileage was unchanged from previous OCIs at ~35 MPG.

Previous fill was 3/4 Idemitsu 0w20 SN, 1/4 SM, at least that's my speculation based on the moly levels. Previous thread HERE . AFE has dramatically better TBN retention than the Idemitsu oil.

Please spare me any comments like "you're wasting money - run it longer". I'm following the OLM for warranty and using synthetic 0w20 for a clean engine, easy winter starting, and the best available wear protection.

 

[addyguy]

I wouldn't call that Al number even close to acceptable.

Engine will be an oil-burner soon enough.

I've had sky-high Si on my engine, and Al wasn't even a third of this...

 

[Clevy]

How are short runs " the best possible wear prevention" when the sae article Dnewton wrote about states that wear increases at the time of oil change because of the anti-wear layer from the old oil gets stripped,and the new oil applies its own layer,so during that process wear increases until the new anti-wear layer is applied.
And at every oil change this process takes place.
To be honest I doubt it makes much of a difference in the lifespan of a vehicle I just thought I'd add some fuel

Oil held up well for 7000 miles and you could likely run the oil another 5000 miles.
Who says AFE isn't a long drain oil. Maybe tig is on to something.

 

[FZ1]

No sweat,man. It's still breaking in.

 

[OVERKILL]

I wish they had included flashpoint, as you can compare that to virgin to see if the effects of fuel dilution are greater than they'd appear. Which would account for viscosity loss (rather than it being shear).

 

[buster]

This oil dips into the 7cSt range quite often and it's probably meant to do that for greater fuel economy. It's not a big deal at all. M1 0w20 meets dexos 1 among other stringent specs so the oil is solid.

I'd stick with the M1 again to get a trend going. Switching from brand to brand can cause wear metal spikes in some cases.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
No sweat,man. It's still breaking in.


A honda UOA typically looks broken in by 5-10k. Some even look great on the FF UOA. This car is well past that.

 

[KCJeep]

What analysis service did you use? I like the format of that one and Blackstone seems pretty crazy lately.

Aluminum is sky high but also trending down.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
How are short runs " the best possible wear prevention" when the sae article Dnewton wrote about states that wear increases at the time of oil change because of the anti-wear layer from the old oil gets stripped,and the new oil applies its own layer,so during that process wear increases until the new anti-wear layer is applied.
And at every oil change this process takes place.
To be honest I doubt it makes much of a difference in the lifespan of a vehicle I just thought I'd add some fuel


This is exactly the type of post I was hoping to avoid with my "spare me" comments. I meant only that top-tier synthetic oils contain the formulator's best anti-wear additive package and that is a reason to use those oils regardless of drain interval.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Oil held up well for 7000 miles and you could likely run the oil another 5000 miles.
Who says AFE isn't a long drain oil. Maybe tig is on to something.


I likely could, but then I'd be risking warranty coverage on a multi-thousand dollar engine in order to save a few tens of dollars on oil.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I wish they had included flashpoint, as you can compare that to virgin to see if the effects of fuel dilution are greater than they'd appear. Which would account for viscosity loss (rather than it being shear).


Yea, none of the common, inexpensive labs give you everything, though I presume the fuel% is more accurate than Blackstone's flashpoint extrapolation.

Originally Posted By: buster
This oil dips into the 7cSt range quite often and it's probably meant to do that for greater fuel economy. It's not a big deal at all. M1 0w20 meets dexos 1 among other stringent specs so the oil is solid.


It's usually not a big deal, and I agree it's not a big deal in an R18 Honda engine. Usually not a big deal provides little comfort to a WRX owner who spun a bearing on water thin GF-4 Mobil 1 5w30 which they thought was 11.3 cSt, but turned out to be ~8.5 cSt. My point being I would prefer an oil with an "honest" PDS. What's the point of having a PDS if the oil changes dramatically soon after you pour it in the engine?

I'm not highly knowledgable on what Dexos 1 requires other than NOACK < 13%, so I'll take your word for it. What does "solid" mean? It's certainly not "solid" from a viscosity perspective. The oil meets ACEA A1/B1 specs too, they're also substantially more stringent than GF-5 in a lot of important areas. Specs like A1/B1, Dexos and the Ford spec are the reason I prefer oils like AFE and PP to OEM oils all things equal.

Quote:
I'd stick with the M1 again to get a trend going. Switching from brand to brand can cause wear metal spikes in some cases.


And I will. I'll be doing at least two more UOAs with this oil. I only switched away from the Idemitsu oil because they changed the oil and there was no longer any reason to pay the premium or incur the hassle of obtaining it.

Originally Posted By: addyguy
I wouldn't call that Al number even close to acceptable.

Engine will be an oil-burner soon enough.

I've had sky-high Si on my engine, and Al wasn't even a third of this...


What's the point of this post? I'm already doing everything which can reasonably be done to reduce the grit ingestion, go read my previous two UOA threads. It's not like you can see where dirt at the level of 15ppm is getting into the engine. At this point all I can do is monitor it using UOA and maybe change to yet a different air filter at the next opportunity. If the engine does start burning oil during the warranty period, I'll have some data to bolster my case with Honda, but more likely there will be no consequences, or the consequences will only be noticeable after 100k mi. At which point I will have been the victim of random variation in product quality and I will accept that as the way of the world, add a quart of oil every so often and move on.

Why be so alarmist? It's the kind of thing which can cause the OCD to obsess over in UOA, but if you didn't do the UOA, you'd never know it was a problem.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
What analysis service did you use? I like the format of that one and Blackstone seems pretty crazy lately.


Sorry, missed this. Its Polaris Labs, AKA, Oil Analyzers Inc, AKA Amsoil.

TBN is included in the ~$18 preferred customer price and KV40 only costs $15, making the cost of this UOA just a bit over half the cost of the same data from Blackstone.

 

[KCJeep]

Thank you I may try them, I've got 2 UOA's I need to do coming up.

 

[FZ1]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: FZ1
No sweat,man. It's still breaking in.


A honda UOA typically looks broken in by 5-10k. Some even look great on the FF UOA. This car is well past that.
Circular reasoning. Your major premise is(5-10k) is wrong. Look at the wear metals and contaminants on the oci,note the downward trend with time and miles...... That's breaking in.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Circular reasoning. Your major premise is(5-10k) is wrong. Look at the wear metals and contaminants on the oci,note the downward trend with time and miles...... That's breaking in.


If you're looking at just the above UOA, two samples is not a trend. If you're looking at my previous UOAs going back to the factory fill, check the mileages. Aluminum went UP in the second UOA and was high until I swapped the air filter half-way through the previous OCI.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway


Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I wish they had included flashpoint, as you can compare that to virgin to see if the effects of fuel dilution are greater than they'd appear. Which would account for viscosity loss (rather than it being shear).


Yea, none of the common, inexpensive labs give you everything, though I presume the fuel% is more accurate than Blackstone's flashpoint extrapolation.


Actually it is the other way around. If we use the flashpoint we can compare it to the manufacturer's noted flashpoint and get a better handle on how much fuel dilution actually occurred versus the measured percentage of fuel presented in the UOA. This can account for what we assume is shear, but is actually more fuel dilution.

 

[buster]

Quote:
It's usually not a big deal, and I agree it's not a big deal in an R18 Honda engine. Usually not a big deal provides little comfort to a WRX owner who spun a bearing on water thin GF-4 Mobil 1 5w30 which they thought was 11.3 cSt, but turned out to be ~8.5 cSt. My point being I would prefer an oil with an "honest" PDS. What's the point of having a PDS if the oil changes dramatically soon after you pour it in the engine?

I'm not highly knowledgable on what Dexos 1 requires other than NOACK < 13%, so I'll take your word for it. What does "solid" mean? It's certainly not "solid" from a viscosity perspective. The oil meets ACEA A1/B1 specs too, they're also substantially more stringent than GF-5 in a lot of important areas. Specs like A1/B1, Dexos and the Ford spec are the reason I prefer oils like AFE and PP to OEM oils all things equal.


Those are good points. I don't honestly think M1 GF-4 was that good.

I would prefer more shear stability in a WRX and probably not have used M1 5w30 in that particular engine.

Ultimately you can really only judge an oils performance level by the specifications it meets otherwise you have to rely on unscientific claims and marketing. Some of those may even be true.

I used solid in the sense that M1 has always made a very consistent high quality oil and AFE is part of that. Reliable brand.

I have no explanation what the Al means. It could be nothing at all and just very small wear particles. Or it could be this oil is not doing it's job. I highly doubt the later.

 

[FZ1]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Circular reasoning. Your major premise is(5-10k) is wrong. Look at the wear metals and contaminants on the oci,note the downward trend with time and miles...... That's breaking in.


If you're looking at just the above UOA, two samples is not a trend. If you're looking at my previous UOAs going back to the factory fill, check the mileages. Aluminum went UP in the second UOA and was high until I swapped the air filter half-way through the previous OCI.
I wasn't addressing you,was I?

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Circular reasoning. Your major premise is(5-10k) is wrong. Look at the wear metals and contaminants on the oci,note the downward trend with time and miles...... That's breaking in.


If you're looking at just the above UOA, two samples is not a trend. If you're looking at my previous UOAs going back to the factory fill, check the mileages. Aluminum went UP in the second UOA and was high until I swapped the air filter half-way through the previous OCI.
I wasn't addressing you,was I?


You do realize this is his thread and he was just pointing out your comment was wrong, right? It isn't break-in wear.

 

[FZ1]

There you go,again. Lol. Circular reasoning. Most motors are not fully broken in at 5-10k.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Circular reasoning. Your major premise is(5-10k) is wrong. Look at the wear metals and contaminants on the oci,note the downward trend with time and miles...... That's breaking in.


If you're looking at just the above UOA, two samples is not a trend. If you're looking at my previous UOAs going back to the factory fill, check the mileages. Aluminum went UP in the second UOA and was high until I swapped the air filter half-way through the previous OCI.
I wasn't addressing you,was I?


1 - It's my thread and my car, if you want to be left alone in a side conversation, send a PM.
2 - What downward trend with time and miles? This last UOA shows a precipitous drop in Aluminum, most likely related to the significant drop in Silicon. The previous UOA (26,110 mi) had the highest Al of any. The one before that (22,268 mi) was halfway through an OCI and showed 24 ppm of Al at only 2,700 mi. The iron readings have behaved as expected, starting at 22 ppm in the factory fill and trending down to 8-9 as the engine wore in.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
There you go,again. Lol. Circular reasoning. Most motors are not fully broken in at 5-10k.


I'm not sure you understand what "circular reasoning" means. Either way, modern Honda engines, especially the 4-cyl versions, don't show high metals even in the first 5k of the car, let alone when they hit 20k+ miles. Nevermind that the OP has already said there was a spike in the metals, not just a general downward trend.