Recent Topics
1991 Sierra rear brake squeel
by sr17
33 minutes 37 seconds ago
2015 Silverado Diff Fluid Change
by Realtech214
Today at 12:25 AM
Undercarriage Rust Management
by OpenClose
Yesterday at 11:31 PM
New used tires
by gfh77665
Yesterday at 11:29 PM
Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment)
by HTSS_TR
Yesterday at 11:14 PM
Best Walmart stocked wiper blades?
by aquariuscsm
Yesterday at 10:54 PM
What Ohm antenna wire to use?
by daves66nova
Yesterday at 10:46 PM
Turtle Wax Passed The Test
by RevRider
Yesterday at 10:46 PM
Total FLUIDMATIC G6 SYN ATF, 13.7k mi OCI, 34k mi
by Emperors6
Yesterday at 10:17 PM
Honda NC700X Red Line 10W30, ~5,000 miles
by bulwnkl
Yesterday at 10:13 PM
If you liked the Fram AirHog Filters
by rrounds
Yesterday at 10:07 PM
Most advanced oil on the shelf?
by Jetstreamz06
Yesterday at 09:41 PM
Newest Members
Timmytimmy, Peakboy91, TimingBeltKing, watergate528, iamtheanimal
57996 Registered Users
Who's Online
27 registered (csx7006, bbhero, bdcardinal, Farmer, Gasbuggy, alcyon, 2 invisible), 634 Guests and 321 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
57996 Members
66 Forums
249469 Topics
4083549 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#3076040 - 07/25/13 12:52 PM Chemistry of Brake Fluids
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 17033
Loc: Iowegia - USA
by Permission of Author (Molekule)

A brake fluid is first and foremost a specialized hydraulic fluid. A hydraulic fluid transmits power from one point in a vehicle (pedal/vacuum boost unit) to another (brake calipers). Hydraulic fluids used in automotive hydraulic brake systems must satisfy a variety of requirements.

In manual trasmission equipped cars, this same type of fluid may transmit power from the clutch pedal’s hydraulic cylinder to the clutch actuator cylinder to activate the throw-out bearing, for clutch disengagement during gear changes.

In general, the requirements for a brake fluid include chemical and thermal stability, suitable viscosities for the intended use, fluidity over the use-temperature range, low volatility, non-corrosiveness to metals, limited effect on rubber parts and good tolerance for water. Thus, a hydraulic brake fluid to be commercially acceptable is required to meet industry-accepted specifications as well as those established by governmental agencies. Industrial specifications include Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) specifications such as 7Or1 Artic and 7Or3. Governmental specifications include National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Department of Transportation, Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 571.116 and 571.116a.

Automotive hydraulic brake fluids used today are most often synthetic glycol-base, water-miscible fluids. Brake fluids generally have been blends of several components such as vegetable oils, various alcohol-based fluids, synthetic ester base oils, diluents and one or more oxidation and corrosion inhibitors. Blended hydraulic fluids have contained such lubricants as castor oil, polyoxyalkylene glycols, glycol ricinoleate, and glyceryl ethers of polyoxyalkylene glycols and such diluents as butyl alcohols, amyl alcohols, glycol esters, polyoxyalkylene glycols, monobutyl ethers, ethylene glycol monoalkyl ethers and the like.

In addition to the myriad of synthetic base fluids (they can range from 7 to 11), brake fluids have anti-oxidants, corrosion inhibitors, and metal deactivators included.

Not all blends have been entirely satisfactory in all cases. Those that are satisfactory with respect to most of the requirements are difficult to prepare, since a blend component that satisfies one requirement may be disadvantageous with respect to another requirement. Thus, a blend component that meets a high boiling point requirement frequently does not meet the low temperature viscosity requirement or a blend component that satisfies the low temperature viscosity requirement may adversely affect rubber parts used in hydraulic systems, e.g., cause swelling, softening, and the like.

Brake fluid absorbs moisture form the atmosphere, thus it is hygroscopic. Moisture gradually reduces the boiling point, so the fluid should be changed periodically to remove water and other contaminants and to ensure the continued effectiveness of the braking system.

The properties of different types of brake fluids are tested for many different characteristics such as ph value, viscosity, resistance to oxidation, and stability, and graded against compliance standards set by the United States Department of Transportation (DOT) as noted above.
Brake fluid DOT specifications:

DOT 2 is castor oil based; pretty much obsolete.
DOT 3 is composed of various glycol esters and ethers.
Boiling point: 284° F (140° C)
DOT 4 is also composed of glycol esters and ethers, and boronic compounds.
Boiling point: 311° F (155° C)
DOT 5 is silicone-based. It is NOT recommended for any vehicle equipped with antilock brakes (ABS). It gives better protection against corrosion, and is more suitable for use in wet driving conditions.
Boiling point: 356° F (180° C)
DOT 5.1 is a high-boiling point fluid that is suitable for ABS-equipped vehicles. It contains polyalkylene glycol ether, but is more expensive than other brake fluids.
Boiling point: 375° F (190.6° C)
Even if they have similar base composition, fluids with different DOT ratings must NOT be mixed.


Edited by MolaKule (07/25/13 12:53 PM)
_________________________
"You are free to choose, but you are not free from the Consequences of your choice." Dr. Laura. smile

Top
#3076051 - 07/25/13 01:05 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 37991
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Even if they have similar base composition, fluids with different DOT ratings must NOT be mixed.


Why????? Plenty of folks exchange DOT 3 and 4 fluids, some are even labeled this way!

Top
#3076052 - 07/25/13 01:05 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 8113
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
by Permission of Author (Molekule)

A brake fluid is first and foremost a specialized hydraulic fluid. A hydraulic fluid transmits power from one point in a vehicle (pedal/vacuum boost unit) to another (brake calipers). Hydraulic fluids used in automotive hydraulic brake systems must satisfy a variety of requirements.

In manual trasmission equipped cars, this same type of fluid may transmit power from the clutch pedal’s hydraulic cylinder to the clutch actuator cylinder to activate the throw-out bearing, for clutch disengagement during gear changes.

In general, the requirements for a brake fluid include chemical and thermal stability, suitable viscosities for the intended use, fluidity over the use-temperature range, low volatility, non-corrosiveness to metals, limited effect on rubber parts and good tolerance for water. Thus, a hydraulic brake fluid to be commercially acceptable is required to meet industry-accepted specifications as well as those established by governmental agencies. Industrial specifications include Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) specifications such as 7Or1 Artic and 7Or3. Governmental specifications include National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Department of Transportation, Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 571.116 and 571.116a.

Automotive hydraulic brake fluids used today are most often synthetic glycol-base, water-miscible fluids. Brake fluids generally have been blends of several components such as vegetable oils, various alcohol-based fluids, synthetic ester base oils, diluents and one or more oxidation and corrosion inhibitors. Blended hydraulic fluids have contained such lubricants as castor oil, polyoxyalkylene glycols, glycol ricinoleate, and glyceryl ethers of polyoxyalkylene glycols and such diluents as butyl alcohols, amyl alcohols, glycol esters, polyoxyalkylene glycols, monobutyl ethers, ethylene glycol monoalkyl ethers and the like.

In addition to the myriad of synthetic base fluids (they can range from 7 to 11), brake fluids have anti-oxidants, corrosion inhibitors, and metal deactivators included.

Not all blends have been entirely satisfactory in all cases. Those that are satisfactory with respect to most of the requirements are difficult to prepare, since a blend component that satisfies one requirement may be disadvantageous with respect to another requirement. Thus, a blend component that meets a high boiling point requirement frequently does not meet the low temperature viscosity requirement or a blend component that satisfies the low temperature viscosity requirement may adversely affect rubber parts used in hydraulic systems, e.g., cause swelling, softening, and the like.

Brake fluid absorbs moisture form the atmosphere, thus it is hygroscopic. Moisture gradually reduces the boiling point, so the fluid should be changed periodically to remove water and other contaminants and to ensure the continued effectiveness of the braking system.

The properties of different types of brake fluids are tested for many different characteristics such as ph value, viscosity, resistance to oxidation, and stability, and graded against compliance standards set by the United States Department of Transportation (DOT) as noted above.
Brake fluid DOT specifications:

DOT 2 is castor oil based; pretty much obsolete.
DOT 3 is composed of various glycol esters and ethers.
Boiling point: 284° F (140° C)
DOT 4 is also composed of glycol esters and ethers, and boronic compounds.
Boiling point: 311° F (155° C)
DOT 5 is silicone-based. It is NOT recommended for any vehicle equipped with antilock brakes (ABS). It gives better protection against corrosion, and is more suitable for use in wet driving conditions.
Boiling point: 356° F (180° C)
DOT 5.1 is a high-boiling point fluid that is suitable for ABS-equipped vehicles. It contains polyalkylene glycol ether, but is more expensive than other brake fluids.
Boiling point: 375° F (190.6° C)
Even if they have similar base composition, fluids with different DOT ratings must NOT be mixed.


Where's that "like" button? laugh


In practice, I bet there's been a whole heckuva lot of mixing of DOT3 and DOT4 fluids... in fact I've probably done it myself when DOT4 first came out.

DOT5 and higher- not so much since its always been a "special" fluid and you generally had to know something about its properties before you even considered buying it.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 Cherokee 4.0, '11 Grand Cherokee 3.6

Top
#3076066 - 07/25/13 01:19 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 17033
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Quote:
Why????? Plenty of folks exchange DOT 3 and 4 fluids, some are even labeled this way!


The main difference between DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 fluids are the inclusion of higher boiling point fluids in the higher number designation fluid, and the addition of boron compounds in DOT 4 and 5.1 fluids.

If you mix a higher boiling point fluid with a lower boiling point fluid, you lower the overall boiling point of the resultant mix.

Hence the recommendation NOT to mix.

Since Brake Fluid is a safety item, I would not mix, regardless of what people do or what the label states in this regard.


Edited by MolaKule (07/25/13 01:23 PM)
_________________________
"You are free to choose, but you are not free from the Consequences of your choice." Dr. Laura. smile

Top
#3076247 - 07/25/13 04:45 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: JHZR2]
Johnny248 Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 2013
Loc: Detroit, MI
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Even if they have similar base composition, fluids with different DOT ratings must NOT be mixed.


Why????? Plenty of folks exchange DOT 3 and 4 fluids, some are even labeled this way!


Was going to ask the same. People mix/add/top off Dot 4 fluids to dot 3 vehicles all the time?
_________________________
'11 Ram 1500 5.7L
'08 Beetle 2.5L
'06 Eclipse GT 3.8L
'95 Four Winns Sundowner 5.0FI
'94 Honda Dio 72cc Big Bore


Top
#3076248 - 07/25/13 04:46 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
Johnny248 Offline


Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 2013
Loc: Detroit, MI
Why can't Dot 5 be used in ABS systems?
_________________________
'11 Ram 1500 5.7L
'08 Beetle 2.5L
'06 Eclipse GT 3.8L
'95 Four Winns Sundowner 5.0FI
'94 Honda Dio 72cc Big Bore


Top
#3076264 - 07/25/13 05:12 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
HTSS_TR Online   content


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 18208
Loc: Lake Forest, CA
It isn't a mix but when people change brake fluid from DOT-3 to Dot-4(or vice versa) with a good flush from bleeder valves, there is some old DOT-3 fluid left in the system. What will happen ?
_________________________
'00 MB E430
'04 Honda S2000
'06 Volvo V70
'14 Honda Accord LX
"Throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pope Francis

Top
#3076275 - 07/25/13 05:27 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: Johnny248]
expat Offline


Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 5072
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Johnny248
Why can't Dot 5 be used in ABS systems?


I was going to ask the same question.
My Guess is, Dot 5 has a tendency to hold micro air bubbles (which is why it is sometimes claimed to give a 'spongy' brake pedal)
I guess, they could like micro 'springs' in the fluid and defeat the rapid ABS on-off pluses.

OK, I know I did not express that well :-(

Top
#3076384 - 07/25/13 08:03 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: expat]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 17033
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: Johnny248
Why can't Dot 5 be used in ABS systems?


I was going to ask the same question.
My Guess is, Dot 5 has a tendency to hold micro air bubbles (which is why it is sometimes claimed to give a 'spongy' brake pedal)
I guess, they could like micro 'springs' in the fluid and defeat the rapid ABS on-off pluses.

OK, I know I did not express that well :-(


Dot 5 brake fluid is based on silicones (actually siloxanes), is therefore not compatible with glycol-based brake fluids. Dot 5 fluid is more compressible due to aeration and foaming under normal braking conditions.

An ABS system uses a timed pulse for fluid flow metering and does not look at pressure/volume for feedback, so Dot 5 fluid is not a good candidate for ABS.

The DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 glycol-based fluids however are not compressible and thus are more suitable for ABS systems.


Edited by MolaKule (07/25/13 08:11 PM)
_________________________
"You are free to choose, but you are not free from the Consequences of your choice." Dr. Laura. smile

Top
#3076391 - 07/25/13 08:08 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: HTSS_TR]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 17033
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
It isn't a mix but when people change brake fluid from DOT-3 to Dot-4(or vice versa) with a good flush from bleeder valves, there is some old DOT-3 fluid left in the system. What will happen ?


Dot 5.1 can be used to replace Dot 4 and 3, and Dot 4 can be used to replace Dot 3.

There is always some old fluid left in the system somewhere, but as much old fluid should be removed as possible.

The formulations between each DOT brake fluid category is slightly different.

Quote:
The main difference between DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 fluids are the inclusion of higher boiling point fluids in the higher number designation fluid, and the addition of boron compounds in DOT 4 and 5.1 fluids.

If you mix a higher boiling point fluid with a lower boiling point fluid, you lower the overall boiling point of the resultant mix.

Hence the recommendation NOT to mix.


Edited by MolaKule (07/25/13 08:10 PM)
_________________________
"You are free to choose, but you are not free from the Consequences of your choice." Dr. Laura. smile

Top
#3077508 - 07/27/13 02:02 AM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 18318
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Great information, Mola! This should be a sticky somewhere.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 51358
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

Top
#3079454 - 07/29/13 12:55 AM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: Garak]
Jakebrake Offline


Registered: 09/10/02
Posts: 280
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
Originally Posted By: Garak
Great information, Mola! This should be a sticky somewhere.

X2

Top
#3084986 - 08/03/13 10:31 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
Tay Offline


Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Asia
i read that DOT 5.1 is much more hygroscopic then DOT 4 and DOT 4 more then DOT 3.

is there any truth to this?

Top
#3085871 - 08/04/13 07:50 PM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 17033
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Looking at the chemistry I don't see any one fluid more hygroscopic than the other.
_________________________
"You are free to choose, but you are not free from the Consequences of your choice." Dr. Laura. smile

Top
#3086127 - 08/05/13 05:21 AM Re: Chemistry of Brake Fluids [Re: MolaKule]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 18318
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Thanks for that. I, too, had heard such a thing mentioned. Of course, it's never something from a company that makes the stuff or in a sourced article. It's just mentioned in passing in some general tech article.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 51358
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >