PP 0w20 vs M1 AFE 0w20.

[richport29]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Also M1 0-20 has a MRV@-40C of 9200 showing this oil has a sizeable amount of PAO as well. Excellant blend of base stock.


Interesting..

So they still use PAO in some of there products?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: Clevy
You are going backwards if going from ultra to M1.


100% AGREE!

100% disagree.

As you probably know 0W-20 has been back spec'd as an option for your car. For the way you drive a 0W-20 would be a more suitable viscosity and my first choice would be an OEM 0W-20 such as Mazda moly 0W-20 followed closely by TGMO 0W-20, then Mitsubishi 0W-20, SynGard 0W-20 and lastly Honda 0W-20. The reason is that these oils are lighter than OTC 0W-20's like PP and M1.

Anyway if the choice was between PP and M1 it would be M1.

NOACK is not important in your low temp' application.


Why honda 0w20 last? I have heard these OEM oils are very thin at operating temp too. And expensive...and I know it probably makes no difference, but I cant see myself putting in toyota or mazda oil in a honda engine lol

Yes they are "thin" but they are still thicker at operating temp's than you'll ever need. Keep in mind that even in a Florida summer you won't be seeing even normal oil temp's most of the time. I placed the CoP_ made Honda 0W-20 last because it is heavier than the rest including the Idemitsu made Cdn Honda 0W-20.
Hope that helps.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: tig1
Here is a pic of the cam area of my Focus doing 10K OCIs.


As you can see very clean. PP would no doubt keep your engine clean as well, but I know from experience that M1 0-20 is great for 10K and beyond OCIs, for the life of a vehicle. Others here probably do not have that experience.

Is that recent? it was much cleaner the last pics you posted

Negatory my New England friend. This is the same pic. I need to update my pics, but I assure you the engine is as clean now as when this was taken, and my engines are varnish free.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: richport29
Originally Posted By: tig1
Also M1 0-20 has a MRV@-40C of 9200 showing this oil has a sizeable amount of PAO as well. Excellant blend of base stock.


Interesting..

So they still use PAO in some of there products?

Off topic but yes the AFE 0W-20 and 0W-30 are PAO based in part and the Cdn SM 0W-40 is also still PAO based.

 

[DrDusty86]

Stay with PU. It is a better product. Look at the PDS. The noack is even lower on the PU over the M1.
The M1 is Group III petrol based for about 7 years now.
M1 and PU cost the same where I am, so it makes it a no brainer.
Tig, NOBODY is arguing that M1 doesn't clean out keeps engine clean. IT DOES. but a clean engine is only 1/3 of the oils job.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
Stay with PU. It is a better product. Look at the PDS. The noack is even lower on the PU over the M1.
The M1 is Group III petrol based for about 7 years now.
M1 and PU cost the same where I am, so it makes it a no brainer.
Tig, NOBODY is arguing that M1 doesn't clean out keeps engine clean. IT DOES. but a clean engine is only 1/3 of the oils job.


Apparently you have not read the entire thread that the OP posted. Your grp 3 theory has already been debunked. And please spell out for us the other 2/3rds for us.

 

[richport29]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Off topic but yes the AFE 0W-20 and 0W-30 are PAO based in part and the Cdn SM 0W-40 is also still PAO based.


On a side note any idea why the AFE 0W-30 isn't available in Canada? I always found that odd.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
Stay with PU. It is a better product. Look at the PDS. The noack is even lower on the PU over the M1.

It isn't a better product just a heavier oil and NOACK is academic in this application.

 

[dgsbikes]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Anyway if the choice was between PP and M1 it would be M1.


Can I ask you to please elaborate on the reasons behind that? It would help me with the decision. My driving is very similar to the OP.

A second question:
If the driving style changes from short frequent runs to a couple of 20 mile freeway runs a day, would that change the recommendation from M1 to PP, and if so, why?

Thanks again for your contribution to this forum. I always find your posts information (honestly though I don't grasp the language in some, but that only pushes me to research the variables further!

)

 

[dgsbikes]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
... NOACK is academic in this application.


Is NOACK academic in this application because the driving pattern is not sustained, long period, high temp operations? So, if the driving was 20-30 min freeway runs with sustained 60mph average speed twice a day every day of week, would NOACK become relevant?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dgsbikes
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
... NOACK is academic in this application.


Is NOACK academic in this application because the driving pattern is not sustained, long period, high temp operations? So, if the driving was 20-30 min freeway runs with sustained 60mph average speed twice a day every day of week, would NOACK become relevant?


Sure it's nice to have a NOACK as low as possible and it's relevance does come into play when very high oil temp's (sustained over 130C) are seen. But in a 20wt application when sump oil temp's may rarely get over 90C you'd be hard pressed to measure any real evaporative viscosity loss difference between a 6% NOACK and 14% NOACK oil even over a maximized OCI.

 

[gregk24]

ok, can i ask you guys this...is which one is thicker at 100c and which is thinner at 40c? also, which has a better ad pack?

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Here is a pic of the cam area of my Focus doing 10K OCIs.


As you can see very clean. PP would no doubt keep your engine clean as well, but I know from experience that M1 0-20 is great for 10K and beyond OCIs, for the life of a vehicle. Others here probably do not have that experience.


I have that experience with the same engine and honestly, it's not hard on oil at all. The Mzda 2.3 is a great engine. Point being 10k on any oil is going to look the same most likely.

 

[richport29]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
ok, can i ask you guys this...is which one is thicker at 100c and which is thinner at 40c? also, which has a better ad pack?


PP is thinner at both temps.

 

[ottotheclown]

How is the new job coming along???
Originally Posted By: gregk24
[/quote] Mobil 1 is no longer PAO based.


Really? when did that happen? So why does Mobil 1 have a better VI? [/quote]

 

[buster]

Flip a coin. Pennzoil seems to be at the very top at the moment with PP/PU if you really wanted to compare them.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
ok, can i ask you guys this...is which one is thicker at 100c and which is thinner at 40c? also, which has a better ad pack?


I don't know off hand however between pp and m1 I doubt in use there would be much if any difference. They are both good products. I'd go with whichever was cheaper at the time of purchase.

 

[Hermann]

Greg,

I have used Mobil 1 AFE twice now. Each time under different driving conditions. My driving used to be 25 miles average trips. No oil use great UOA.

This time lots of 3 miles trips and very little highway or full warmups. Although I do a 350 mile trips every other month or so to visit relatives.

Neither time have I used any oil or has the oil smelled of fuel.

My current fill is 8+ months old right now with 4400 miles on it. Now that my warranty is up, I plan on running it till late November, and do a UOA. It should be interesting to see how different driving environments show in the UOA.

I have also used PP early in the Tacoma's life, it was 5w-20 as 0w-20 used to be unobtaninum back in 2009, at least at a reasonable price. It performed pretty much as any oil I have used in the Tacoma. Great. Use either with confidence IMO.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
ok, can i ask you guys this...is which one is thicker at 100c and which is thinner at 40c?

You can look these up but M1 is heavier at 100C, also has a higher HTHSV but is lighter at 40C.
PP will be about 7% heavier at room temp's and 13% at 32F.
M1 is lighter on start-up at all temp's due to it's higher VI.

So M1 has the better viscosity characteristics.

 

[richport29]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
You can look these up but M1 is heavier at 100C, also has a higher HTHSV but is lighter at 40C.
PP will be about 7% heavier at room temp's and 13% at 32F.
M1 is lighter on start-up at all temp's due to it's higher VI.

So M1 has the better viscosity characteristics.


According to these PP is lighter at both 100c and 40c. It also shows PP has a slightly higher vi 175>173.
Not 100% if these are both the latest, so take with a grain of salt..

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-20_Advanced_Fuel_Economy.aspx
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007054941_201202271154.pdf