e-85 injectors

[MBS500]

ATP turbo store has injectors for Abarth/500T(error) for under $400. They claim that it is 100% drop in without any changing to ECU.
We all know e85 benefits turbo.
I'm thinking about those, have couple gas stations that sell e85 near me for about $1 per gallon lower than 93,but price is not the reason.
I were wondering is it ok to run car on gas, if e85 is unavailable? Will ECU react and spray less? Will fuel get fully burned with 30% more spray injectors, if you have MM piggy back on race mode and sport mode on(it completely transforms car behavior, and obviously burns more fuel and changes timing)
if it won't, you will dilute your oil pretty bad, right?
So my main question is, do I risk anything if I happen to be in the middle of nowhere and there is no e85 to fill up? And oil will need to be changed more often if I happen to run e-85?

 

[Bladecutter]

If you don't know what you are doing with a turbo car, you can badly damage it, and your Fiat warranty will not repair your engine for free.

In this case, you do not know what you are doing, and you have not properly researched the subject on an actual Fiat 500 forum, so you should NOT make these changes.

Go to one of the many Fiat 500 forums (I'm a member on two), and try to do seem research on if anyone else has made this change, and what their experiences have been.

Just buying bigger injectors does not make your car E-85 ready.
If it was just that simple, don't you think every car sold in the US would be E-85 capable?

BC.

 

[chubbs1]

I would be very careful about making changes to this brand new vehicle under warranty. Research very carefully.

 

[supton]

I think I am with BC on this. Hit up a Fiat forum.

Off hand, this injector is likely just larger. The ecu can run richer or leaner, based up the o2 signal. Not sure what parts have to change to stand up to e85, since e10 is standard. But the ecu does have to deal with different spark curve and fueling--it may throw a fit when it has to run richer.

I believe some cars have ethanol sensors to help the ecu cope. A sensor of some sort, or enough smarts to realize e is in use.

Probably have to change oil sooner.

Doesn't sound worth it to me.

 

[spasm3]

I would think you would need to remap the ecu for this to work, then i'm not sure how it would run on e-10.

 

[Mr Nice]

I would not touch your engine.

 

[MBS500]

Do you guys really think I did not research it prior posting here? So far I found one person running e85 almoust since day one in his Abarth with 0 issues, using just those injectors.
I asked specific question, what would happen if there is no e85 and I put premium gas with those injectors. I don't ask advice should I do it or not.

 

[Trav]

They look like Bosch units. I deal with them a few times a week when i talk to them this week i can ask.
Do you have any part numbers from your OEM ones and these you posted?

 

[Bladecutter]

Originally Posted By: MBS500
I asked specific question, what would happen if there is no e85 and I put premium gas with those injectors. I don't ask advice should I do it or not.


Your car will run massively rich, and the ecu will attempt, in vain, to decrease the amount of fuel it injects. You will wash the layer of oil off of the cylinder walls, and dilute the oil in your oil pan significantly, leading to increased engine wear.

The diluted engine oil will then be forced into a really, really hot turbocharger, which will suffer from advanced bearing wear, and eventually it will fail, possibly sending shrapnel into your engine, killing it, too.

There you go.
That's exactly what could happen to your car if you switch up to those injectors, and use a full tank of regular gas, without any proper fuel mapping done where you can switch the mapping back and forth between an E-85 tune and a premium gas tune.

BC.

 

[MBS500]

Originally Posted By: Trav
They look like Bosch units. I deal with them a few times a week when i talk to them this week i can ask.
Do you have any part numbers from your OEM ones and these you posted?

E85 ones
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc...;Category_Code=
Stock injector stock # I believe 04627652AA

 

[MBS500]

Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: MBS500
I asked specific question, what would happen if there is no e85 and I put premium gas with those injectors. I don't ask advice should I do it or not.


Your car will run massively rich, and the ecu will attempt, in vain, to decrease the amount of fuel it injects. You will wash the layer of oil off of the cylinder walls, and dilute the oil in your oil pan significantly, leading to increased engine wear.

The diluted engine oil will then be forced into a really, really hot turbocharger, which will suffer from advanced bearing wear, and eventually it will fail, possibly sending shrapnel into your engine, killing it, too.

There you go.
That's exactly what could happen to your car if you switch up to those injectors, and use a full tank of regular gas, without any proper fuel mapping done where you can switch the mapping back and forth between an E-85 tune and a premium gas tune.

BC.

What if you put some and and then add e85 to the top again after 15 mins drive to another station? Or drive home and swap to stock and maybe change oil after that.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: MBS500
Do you guys really think I did not research it prior posting here? So far I found one person running e85 almoust since day one in his Abarth with 0 issues, using just those injectors.
I asked specific question, what would happen if there is no e85 and I put premium gas with those injectors. I don't ask advice should I do it or not.


With suck large injectors once gasoline is reintroduced you will get a very sluggish running engine.
Yes your oxygen sensors will discover the change and retard timing to cope with the inevitable pre-ignition and knock.
If you ever get stuck running premium I suggest carrying a gallon of either toluene/acetone or xylene with you at all times. Those chemicals are all approx 120 octane and will raise the octane level of the premium fuel.
I see guys at the track running stand alone e85 fuel systems,but they aren't able to remap the system.
If I were you I would buy a tuner and have a map written for 91 octane gasoline as well as your e85 map. That way if you are forced to run gasoline to can simply upload the map you require for the fuel used.
I've got an sct tuner with 3 maps that are written for different octane fuels,and a nitrous tune for running a 150 shot.
So if there is a tuner available for fiat ecu systems I suggest buying one. If you have a speed shop with dyno tuning capabilities buy your tuner from them and have them write you a custom map for both fuels. That guarantees you won't get stuck and possibly ruining your engine.

 

[MBS500]

Well I do have Magneti Marelli box that has 3 maps, stock, sport and race.And I can upload other maps there. Car pushes about 15 horses more just with this box. Multi-air engines are non usual ones, they can run without throttle body in theory. ECU constantly changes timing depending on situation especially if you turn on stock "sport" mode.
P.S I run 93 octane unless I can't find it. E85 is just an Idea to do after some other minor kods will be done. But it is considered biggest jump before going bigger turbocharger route.

 

[Trav]

The stock injectors Bosch 0280-158-300 (04627652AA) do not appear to be e85 compatible. I say appear because its not published info as its a manufacturer specific part. I am beating the bushes for a little more info on flow rates etc.
The effects of e85 can be very corrosive so the injector must use materials (usually SS) that can handle it.
As you probably already know its not the ethanol that is corrosive its its hygroscopic nature that causes corrosion.

ATP is keeping the other injector a mystery by not publishing the actual Bosch part number e.g. 0280-158-x it could be just a common flex fuel Bosch injector or one used in the South American flex model, i get these and similar all the time in my shop as they are very common in lots of vehicles.

If i could get the part# of the thing i could tell you in a minute what it is, but i don't think they want you shopping (thats fine and understandable).
Running normal gas with these bigger injectors will cause it to run pig rich, probably beyond the parameters of the stock ECM.

An ECM tune with the box you have should be able to handle switching back and forth.
I have a friend/customer who runs a GMC Typhoon on e85 but switches to gas for street without any issues or significant oil dilution so it can be done safely 100%.
Let me pick his brain a little today.

Regardless if you get these would you do me a big favor and PM me the part# of a new one. I might be able to help someone else down the road as i run a fuel injector business.

 

[MBS500]

Ok, if i ever get those I'll pm you.

 

[supercity]

Fascinating, a drop in E85 conversion without a remap.

 

[MBS500]

Found an e85 Abarth owner reply regarding his car:
Quote:
Yep, plug and play. Fuel trims in closed loop long term is within +- 5% so it's a close as you can get. No CEL due to this and that all the on board monitors work perfectly because the ECU recognizes nothing out of place. Under WOT, AFR's are perfect as well according to the wideband.

When you do a gas to E85 conversion, the best thing to do is do it while it's on the dyno.

1) Do a few pulls on gas and see the baseline power.
2) Swap in injectors and replace gas with E85 while it's on the dyno.
3) Keep the timing map tuned for pump gas still (conservative).
4) Do dyno pulls on E85.
5) You know it's a success when every pull you do on E85, you start making more and more power and the shape of the power curve gets smoother and smoother.

Once that's good, if you have the ability to, do an E85 specific tune and gains will be huge (as you know with the amount of timing you run on that Miata).

In the case of the Abarth, you're kind of stuck with a conservative timing map since you can't touch the ECU (yet). The gains are good and the ECU no longer pulls timing.

That ECU is so stingy that I rarely log more than 5 degrees of advance. You'll see an occasional 3 degree and most of the time, it's 1-2 degrees.

At least I have peace of mind that during a hard all out run that it won't knock hard at 20+ psi on 91 octane and crack a ringland or something like that.

 

[Trav]

Something else that is interesting. In south America they do offer it with flex fuel, i wonder what the difference is with the engine management and the injectors for that matter.

My customer has two tunes for the car one for gas and one for e85 and switches back and forth for street and strip.
He does use an ethanol rated injector but running gas is a non issue with them.