Honda Factory Oil, 2013 Accord, 5653 Miles, 15% OL

[MikeySoft]

Honda Factory Oil, 2013 I4 Accord, 5653 Miles, 15% OLM

This is a hobby so I had two different labs do a UOL, Caterpillar and NAPA. I'll post the CAT one now and the NAPA one in this tread when it comes in.

I have not done this in a while and some of the CAT stuff is new to me.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks.

Code:


Lab: CAT

Oil: Factory

OLM: 15%

Unit Miles: 5853

Oil Miles: 5853

Oil Weeks: 27 Weeks

Date: 06/17/13

Filter: Factory



CU: 19

Fe: 53

Cr: 1

Al: 20

Pb: 0

Sn: 0

Si: 149

Na: 12

K(Potassium): 11

Mo: 669

Ni: 0

Ag: 0

Ti: 0

Ca: 1713

Mg: 5

Zn: 760

P(Phosphorus):680

Ba: 4



Soot: 0

Oxidation: 25

Nitration: 12

Sulfaction: 32

Water: No

Antifreeze: No

Fuel: Positive

Fuel Content: 11.36%

Vis @100C: 7.2

TAN: 2.98

TBN: 1.6

PQI: 5


PQI = Particle Quantifying Index.

UOAs for Old 2003 Accord

 

[SLCraig]

11.36% fuel???

 

[DrDusty86]

Good lord that fuel is high. If that is really the true value

 

[CATERHAM]

Yes the fuel content can't be that high or the KV100 would be way lower.
I suspect it's more like 1.136%.

 

[MikeySoft]

Originally Posted By: SLCraig
11.36% fuel???
They also pointed that out but said the viscosity reading indicated a 5w-20 oil in the next sentence. I'm assuming the factor oil was 0w-20 so I don’t see how I can have over 11% fuel content. I just drove about 27 miles on the highway before I changed the oil. I’m not an expert on this.

 

[MikeySoft]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Yes the fuel content can't be that high or the KV100 would be way lower.
I suspect it's more like 1.136%.
I'll give the lab a call tomorrow. The comments may be computer generated so no one saw the possible error. The comments also said silicon and Al were high and did not take into account that this is the first oil change of a new car.

 

[Barkleymut]

In so I can watch this one, thanks for the dual analysis!

 

[MikeySoft]

The CAT analysis had things I've have not seen in other UOAs. I'm googling but getting overwhelmed. Could someone explain in a few words what normal ranges are for Oxidation, Nitration, Sulfaction, and PQI?

I believe my mileage was low compared to many other Honda owners for 15% OLM because of the driving conditions, especially during the winter.

How accurate does it (OLM) look considering I have a 2.98 TAN and 1.6 TBN and anything else in this report?
Any additional recommendations?

Thanks in advance.

 

[demarpaint]

Interesting report, although I have no idea what to make of the fuel? Could it have something to do with DI? Doubtful but possible.

I guess the best thing to do is wait until tomorrow and see what they tell you. I think Caterham is right in saying it's 1.136.

 

[Danh]

Your Accord has a direct fuel injection engine I believe, so fuel contamination is something to watch for. Even so 11% does seem beyond the realm of plausibility.

Your OLM looks pretty accurate: Blackstone Labs suggests a TBN of 1.0 is when a change is needed. TBN depletion doesn't seem to be linear (more depletion occurs early in the oil's life), so 15% oil life remaining doesn't seem too out of whack with a 1.6 TBN.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Danh
Your Accord has a direct fuel injection engine I believe, so fuel contamination is something to watch for. Even so 11% does seem beyond the realm of plausibility.


Exactly what I was thinking and is worthy of further investigation.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: Danh

Your OLM looks pretty accurate: Blackstone Labs suggests a TBN of 1.0 is when a change is needed. TBN depletion doesn't seem to be linear (more depletion occurs early in the oil's life), so 15% oil life remaining doesn't seem too out of whack with a 1.6 TBN.


That would be all well and good if CAT and Blackstone used the same methods for TBN. They don't. By the method CAT uses, 2.0 is the minimum and equivalent to Blackstone's 1.0. That oil is shot.

I'd start changing at 25% until you get a handle on the fuel dilution. That low of TBN in that few miles is consistent with high fuel dilution.

Ed

 

[MikeySoft]

I called the lab. They are going to pull the graph of the fuel contamination and get back to me. I also asked about oxidation. They said 25 is low for oxidation, they would flag it if it was over 35.

I posted an error in the number of oil weeks. I got the car Oct 10, 2012 so I have about 8 months and a week for the UOA, not 6 months and a week as I posted. I'll correct that when I post the UOA from the second lab.

You can see I don’t drive the car that much but it is a mix of local and highway. Last Jan/Feb had hard conditions because I had a lot of short (
All comments are welcome.

 

[MikeySoft]

The Lab just sent me a Chromatogram graph. It has Response (mV) for the Y scale. The X scale is marked Time. It has a water mark so it difficult to see the units. It looks like the time is "Time(min)"

The graph is flat near 5 mV until around 0.3 time where it spikes to around 714 mV. It quickly drops to around 110 at around 0.35 time. It then bounces around 150 mV until around 0.8 time. It then flat lines to around 10 mV.

They said this appears to be raw fuel.

 

[MikeySoft]

Got the second UOA report. It did not test for fuel!

Honda Factory Oil, 2013 I4 Accord, 5653 Miles, 15% OLM

This is a hobby so I had two different labs do a UOL, Caterpillar and NAPA (ALS).
All comments are welcome. Thanks.

Code:


Oil: Honda Factory

OLM: 15%

Unit Miles: 5853

Oil Miles: 5853

Oil Months: 8.25 Months

Date: 06/17/13

Filter: Honda Factory



Lab: CAT ALS



Copper(Cu): 19 23

Iron(Fe): 53 62

Chromium(Cr): 1
Aluminum(Al): 20 20

Lead(Pb): 0
Tin(Sn): 0
Silicon(Si): 149 157

Sodium(Na): 12 14

Potassium(K): 11 13

Moly(Mo): 669 763

Nickel(Ni): 0
Silver(Ag): 0
Titanium(Ti): 0
CalciumCa) 1713 2059

Magnesium(Mg): 5 18

Zinc(Zn) 760 813

Phosphorus(P): 680 757

Barium(Ba): 4
Vanadium(V) -
Boron(B): - 151



Soot: 0 -

Oxidation: 25 -

Nitration: 12 -

Sulfaction: 32 -

Water: No
Antifreeze: No No

Fuel: 11.36% -

cSt@100C: 7.2 7.2

TAN: 2.98 -

TBN: 1.6 1.8

PQI: 5 -



PQI = Particle Quantifying Index.


CAT Comments:
Quote:
THIS SAMPLE TESTED POSITIVE FOR FUEL(11.36% FUEL DILUTION). FUEL CONTAMINANTS CAN PROMOTE/ CONTRIBUTE TO INCREASED WEAR, VISCOSITY LOSS, DEPOSIT FORMATION . SILICON LEVEL APPEARS TO BE ELEVATED. ALUMINUM LEVEL APPEARS TO BE HIGH. VISCOISTY READING IS INDICATIVE OF A 5W-20 OIL. CHECK FOR LEAKING FUEL INJECTORS, FUEL LINE OR PUMP SEALS. CHECK AIR INDUCTION SYSTEM FOR POSSIBLE DIRT INGESTION. RECOMMEND TO CHANGE THE OIL / FILTER(S) IF NOT ALREADY CHANGED.


ALS DIAGNOSIS:
Quote:
Engine wear levels appear satisfactory for run-in period. Silicon level is most likely due to seal and gasket material reaction with the lubricant. Water content acceptable. TBN below recommended limit.


UOAs for Old 2003 Accord

 

[k24a4]

Numbers look pretty similar to this uoa at 40% olm of the factory fill on a 2013 Accord, with the exception of Aluminum:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3042890#Post3042890

As to the dual labs, interesting that all of the comparable numbers were greater with ALS.

Fuel number from CAT seems to be an aberration, as previously stated; the visc looks fine.

Looking forward to seeing how this trends. Thanks for posting.

 

[MikeySoft]

UOA update from the labs.
I had long talks with both labs and it when up the chain of command and seniority for both labs.

ALS assured me I did not have serious fuel dilution for the same reason I and others on this thread felt, because the viscosity is in the normal range. We got into conversations how difficult it is to measure fuel in oil, especially synthetic oil and factory oil is a nightmare according to them.

At first CAT was very adimen it was not a lab error and insisted I should demand my engine be checked by Honda. As I asked questions, including my car is gas and most of the UOAs they do are for diesel, They decided to have my report reviewed by higher experts.

They concluded I did not have serious fuel dilution and attributed the spike in the graph to the low vis break-in oil. At one point they even asked didn’t I smell the gas in the oil when I was changing it. I did not but again checked the new oil on the dipstick the old oil which I have not recycled yet.

Then I realized I still had the old oil and sent it off to a third lab before CAT concluded I did not have the fuel dilution they first stated. I added a note to the lab about using the oil after, not during the drain. Hopefully it will of affect the results too much.

Anyway, stay tune for a third lab report on the same oil.

 

[MikeySoft]

Honda Factory Oil, 2013 I4 Accord, 5653 Miles, 15% OLM

Code:


Oil: Honda Factory

OLM: 15%

Unit Miles: 5853

Oil Miles: 5853

Oil Months: 8.25 Months

Date: 06/17/13

Filter: Honda Factory



Lab: CAT ALS Blackstone



Copper(Cu): 19 23 20

Iron(Fe): 53 62 57

Chromium(Cr): 1
Aluminum(Al): 20 20 7

Lead(Pb): 0
Tin(Sn): 0
Silicon(Si): 149 157 141

Sodium(Na): 12 14 14

Potassium(K): 11 13 13

Moly(Mo): 669 763 739

Nickel(Ni): 0
Silver(Ag): 0
Titanium(Ti): 0
CalciumCa) 1713 2059 1992

Magnesium(Mg): 5 18 15

Zinc(Zn) 760 813 876

Phosphorus(P): 680 757 736

Barium(Ba): 4
Vanadium(V) -
Boron(B): - 151 144

Manganese - - 13



Soot: 0 - -

Insolubles % - - 0.2

Oxidation: 25 - -

Nitration: 12 - -

Sulfaction: 32 - -

Water: No
Antifreeze: No No 0.0

Fuel: 11.36% - 0.8

Flashpoint F - - 370

cSt@100C: 7.2 7.2 7.18

TAN: 2.98 - -

TBN: 1.6 1.8 1.5

PQI: 5 - -



PQI = Particle Quantifying Index.


CAT Comments:
Quote:
THIS SAMPLE TESTED POSITIVE FOR FUEL(11.36% FUEL DILUTION). FUEL CONTAMINANTS CAN PROMOTE/ CONTRIBUTE TO INCREASED WEAR, VISCOSITY LOSS, DEPOSIT FORMATION . SILICON LEVEL APPEARS TO BE ELEVATED. ALUMINUM LEVEL APPEARS TO BE HIGH. VISCOISTY READING IS INDICATIVE OF A 5W-20 OIL. CHECK FOR LEAKING FUEL INJECTORS, FUEL LINE OR PUMP SEALS. CHECK AIR INDUCTION SYSTEM FOR POSSIBLE DIRT INGESTION. RECOMMEND TO CHANGE THE OIL / FILTER(S) IF NOT ALREADY CHANGED.


ALS DIAGNOSIS:
Quote:
Engine wear levels appear satisfactory for run-in period. Silicon level is most likely due to seal and gasket material reaction with the lubricant. Water content acceptable. TBN below recommended limit.

Blackstone Comments:
Quote:
Iron, copper, and silicon read high in this first sample from your brand new K24W1 engine. Iron is from steel parts, copper is from brass/bronze parts, and silicon is from the harmless sealers used to assemble the engine at the factory. This material should wash out with a few more oil changes and get closer to universal averages, which show typical wear after about 6,200 miles on the oil. We found some fuel, but 0.8% isn't a harmful amount. The TBN was good at 1.5, but it was getting low for extended use (1.0 or less). The sampling method was fine.


UOAs for Old 2003 Accord

 

[MikeySoft]

Forgot to add SUS Viscosity @ 210°F for Blackstone. It was 49.7.

 

[INDYMAC]

Thanks for posting these UOA's Mikey...very interesting. I like the reports by all the labs. But the CAT lab offers the most information to interpret. Unfortunately, they need more GC scan training for fuel dilution. Your extra effort will help them inprove in this area I hope.