Bad luck with GM 3800 motor!

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: heyu
Let it go ? fraid not , i will say my point and have my right to do so ,Just because your a paid donor does NOT mean your facts are always right


Well unless you can explain why it doesn't eat through the cheap plastic jugs after 6 years or the coolant overflow bottles i would say your point isn't correct either.


Trav, it never ceases to amaze me how folks hang on to their hate. This Dex thing has been settled for ages. It was a bad thing for sure. But it's OVER...

Some of us are having real difficulties with moving on.


Yes those days are long gone, its a good long life coolant.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I had an `87 Olds Trofeo and sold it with a lil over 300,000 to buy a 3000GT. My dad gave his `90 Olds Delta 88 to one of my nephews with well over 500,000 on it. Both ran flawlessly,and the Delta 88 still does to this day.

Were the earlier 3800`s better than the Series II and III? They seem to be more durable and didn`t have all that plastic stuff on them.

My Ciera has the (LG3)3.8 SFI, the precursor to the 3800.
Plastic was a problem even back then!.... well, nylon actually .

The timing gear had the infamous nylon teeth that would break apart causing all types of issues with losing timing, bending valves, including the nylon clogging up the oil pick up screen.

This was something that 80's GM cars were notorious for.

I remedied it by changing it out before it causes any issues. Being that my car had only 51k miles miles when I did it, the teeth were still in tact.

Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't know which versions they were using in1975 and 1987. My 75 jumped valve timing and the 87 did the same to the point where it would not run.

A very smooth, powerful engine, but I was lucky enough to have two with internal mechanical failures well before the mileages others say they are getting from this family engines.


Sounds like the nylon teeth timing gear as well!

 

[SteveSRT8]

I love the line about how GM vehicles were famous for plastic timing gears!

Did you know they all did that? We had Mopar 318's and 360's do it. Ford even did it on the iconic 300 six.

GM is not the only mfgr to use plastic timing gears.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I love the line about how GM vehicles were famous for plastic timing gears!

Did you know they all did that? We had Mopar 318's and 360's do it. Ford even did it on the iconic 300 six.

GM is not the only mfgr to use plastic timing gears.

Well, THEY WERE, but so were Fords (I don't know about Mopar because I wouldnt touch one with a ten foot pole!!). And do you want to know why the car companies stopped using them?!?!?! because they were prone to failure!

You cannot defend the stupidity that car companies are known for! In an attempt to have a quieter running engine, they sacrificed liability.

In 86, Ford stopped using nylon teeth timing gears on Crown Vics/MGMs (probably other models too) cars...can you guess why?, GM stopped using them in the 3.8(231) when it became the 3800 in '88/'89... again, can you guess why? GM used them on other models and ALSO stopped using them at some point because they were prone to failure.

You are a good poster and I usually agree with you, but you are dead wrong on this one.

http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?2131-Timing-gear-repair-LG3-3-8-SFI-1987-Century

The link above shows the damage, including the nylon bits clogging up the oil pick up


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-tech-...ming-gears.html

Does that look OK to you?!?

Quote:
Ford used a nylon (not fibre) sprocket bonded to a cast gear on the cam for many 5.0s, it was known as a silent timing gear. They are well known for the nylon teeth breaking with age and causing the cam to jump time. The double roller chain wasn't used till the mid 80's.


Quote:
My 77 302 in F150 had the nylon coated cam gear in it when I bought it last year. It was the original timing set with 113,000 miles on it and the cam sprocket was toast (Most of the nylon coating was gone). I installed a new Cloyes Double Roller set and it will probably last longer than I will I suspect.


Google search for "nylon teeth timing gear"

There is so MUCH info out there on this, it's not even funny!

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I love the line about how GM vehicles were famous for plastic timing gears!

Did you know they all did that? We had Mopar 318's and 360's do it. Ford even did it on the iconic 300 six.

GM is not the only mfgr to use plastic timing gears.

Upon looking at your post again (I originally answered it when I first woke up

), you were not questioning the lousiness of the nylon timing gear, but just pointing out that other companies also used them.... which is something, btw I had already known (as evidenced by my previous post).

I do apologize for reading it wrong. Unless you like the nylon coated gears, then I take umbridge with you on that, lol.

I wasnt ignoring the fact that other car companies have used it, I just thought we were discussing the Buick 3.8/3800 which happens to be a GM product. This led me to be specific and focus on GM's use of the nylon gears.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Hahaha, don't worry, I can take it. My point was precisely as you just stated, MANY mfgrs used those [censored] plastic fantastic parts.

When we ran Dodge fleet trucks in the late 70's and early 80's we used to proactively replace the timing set at 150k miles if the engine appeared to be healthy.

No harm, no foul. Thanks for pointing out that I indeed am right much of the time!!! J/K!

 

[HM12460]

I replaced a lot of them on small block Ford's way back in the day.

 

[sciphi]

GM ditched the nylon timing gearsets for the Series I, II, and III 3800's. Those were good ol' metal. I wish they had stuck with metal for the Series II upper intake manifold and gaskets, but knowing the old GM the bean-counters would have found a way to screw that up.

 

[SteveSRT8]

yep, they would screw up the whole car to save a nickel...

 

[dishdude]

The big fad in the 80's was to reduce weight and noise by getting rid of the tried and tested timing chain. The whole industry experimented with timing belts, nylon gears, etc.

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah but when you think about, why should Japanese engines from the time period (and still today on Honda's V6) get a total pass on using timing belts. They last no longer than the nylon geared chain, can cost as much or more time and money to repair. Not to mention valve adjustments, adjustable drive belts and distributors.

The 3.8 was early to adopt DIS and a serpentine accessory belt now common place. It's a great engine marred by a few plastic parts.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
GM ditched the nylon timing gearsets for the Series I, II, and III 3800's. Those were good ol' metal. I wish they had stuck with metal for the Series II upper intake manifold and gaskets, but knowing the old GM the bean-counters would have found a way to screw that up.
Yep and yep.
The 3800 saw a bunch of improvements, including an all metal timing gear set and a balance shaft to help with engine vibrations/idle. When they went from the aluminum intake to the plastic intake, they started going back "down the hill" to save a few bucks.

"One step forward, TWO steps back"

 

[javacontour]

The reason they get a pass is because the timing belt maintenance is clearly spelled out in the owners manual. Neither of my Buick V6's indicated that I had to change the timing gear at about 100-120K miles.

If they had said that, I might have been a happier camper knowing that it was a periodic maintenance item, just like the timing belt.

The expectation with gear and chain driven timing is that it's likely good for the life of the engine.

Failure to meet this expectation is what causes consumer dissatisfaction.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yeah but when you think about, why should Japanese engines from the time period (and still today on Honda's V6) get a total pass on using timing belts. They last no longer than the nylon geared chain, can cost as much or more time and money to repair. Not to mention valve adjustments, adjustable drive belts and distributors.

The 3.8 was early to adopt DIS and a serpentine accessory belt now common place. It's a great engine marred by a few plastic parts.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: babyivan
Originally Posted By: sciphi
GM ditched the nylon timing gearsets for the Series I, II, and III 3800's. Those were good ol' metal. I wish they had stuck with metal for the Series II upper intake manifold and gaskets, but knowing the old GM the bean-counters would have found a way to screw that up.
Yep and yep.
The 3800 saw a bunch of improvements, including an all metal timing gear set and a balance shaft to help with engine vibrations/idle. When they went from the aluminum intake to the plastic intake, they started going back "down the hill" to save a few bucks.

"One step forward, TWO steps back"

Then GM fixed those issues with the Series III, only to cancel the engine a few years later. Silly, since the 3800 Series III was a better daily-driver engine than the DOHC V6's GM was introducing at the same time.

But then folks would have complained about GM using an "outdated pushrod motor" in their modern cars despite the Corvette and GM's trucks using pushrod engines to good effect.

 

[mechanicx]

I still doubt it. If GM had put say a 100k mile replacement interval on the cam drive in this case the nylon cam gear chain (and I agree they should've or better yet used a steel gear) people would undoubtedly make a big beef about it. But if a Japanese car puts a belt drive on an interference engine and a say 60-90K replacement interval and valve adjustment interval, then it all good.

Once you brainwashed the car buyers into believing J-cars are more reliable, it doesn't matter if it's really true or they required more maintenance. The bottom line, recommended replacement interval or not both design had a shorter service life than could have been.

 

[javacontour]

As someone who drove almost exclusively GM and certainly domestic for the first 20 or so years of driving, I wouldn't say that my choice to buy Japanese since 2003 was due to brainwashing.

It was due to a far better experience with a 9 year old, 106K mile Toyota with a GM badge on it than I'd had with any of my previous GM/Ford/Mopars.

I wouldn't be so sure to just write folks off as being brainwashed. Many gave GM/Ford and Chrysler many many chances before looking elsewhere.

As I've said many times here, it's harder to win back a customer you've lost than to keep one you already have.

It does appear the "domestics" are getting that now. However, they have left a bad impression on a great number of car buyers and will have to work extra hard to win them and/or their children.

 

[babyivan]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
...But if a Japanese car puts a belt drive on an interference engine and a say 60-90K replacement interval and valve adjustment interval, then it all good.

So true!! It always amazed me that Hondas were so popular with their belt driven interference engines!
Seriously, what were they thinking!?!?!
Toyota figured out how to build non-interference engines, how come consumers let Honda off the hook? I just don't get it.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

Once you brainwashed the car buyers into believing J-cars are more reliable, it doesn't matter if it's really true or they required more maintenance. The bottom line, recommended replacement interval or not both design had a shorter service life than could have been.

I lean towards domestic for sure, but you can't argue with the numbers when it came to some of the foreign makes and reliability.
Nowadays, things are definitely more even.
Toyota has slumped in the last few years, but from the late 80's to the early 2000's, they were on a roll.
Subaru and Hyundai (believe it or not) has really come into their own.

 

[rjundi]

My friends dad swore(VP of mechanical engineering) by this motor and had two cars handed off to my friend. Each had their motor completely changed out. He was not hard on the motors as he commuted to Boston with them and was meticulous on changing out oil.

My dad got one as company car but he was travelling salesman and forgot to change oil for 20k miles leading to its death. He traveled 55k in one year. So that one gets a pass.

I will admit really nice motors but I think the reputation is maybe just better than standard mill of GM motors? I feel the same about the Honda V6. Amazing motor to drive and incredible efficiency in cars. Not sure why I missed buying the MDX but my wallet did not when I had the timing belt/tensioner/water pump changed out for $700 at Acura dealer. And yes it still needs a valve adjustment apparently but have not bitten yet.