Push mower better than self propelled?

[Mr_Incredible]

I'm older, fatter, and not in a hurry. I can afford a self propelled, and I deserve one.

I get a lot more exercise walking a self propelled mower and emptying the bag than I would riding on the other mower.

I have tools and I know how to use them. I don't worry about maintenance. I keep it clean, don't abuse it, and don't need to get a new mower unless I want to. I'm working my way through Craigslist, getting a better mower for a steal and selling the one I just cleaned up and made shiny.

You youngsters can push a mower if you feel like it. I don't feel like it any more.

 

[afoulk]

I have a silver series lawn boy push mower with the steel deck, and even with the 4 stroke Tecumseh on it, its still the lightest thing I've ever used, nicely balanced and maneuverable. In fact, I do push it one handed when mowing next to my bushes so I can walk beside of the mower instead of walking through the bushes.

On the flip side, I also have an old cast aluminum snapper bagger that is self propelled, and while it is still fairly heavy even with the aluminum deck, I still find it to be maneuverable. I think much of this is due to the open differential they have used for decades. Yes it will sit and spin a wheel if I start with one of them in a hole, but I little rocking or a push and its off again. I find I can even keep the drive engaged when turning to make another pass if I move fast enough. even if I can't, I just slide my hand off the drive lever and then its very easy to turn.

 

[Propflux01]

I have a cub cadet SP. the total weight of the drive system adds about 4 lbs to the total weight of the mower. At time of purchase, the mower could be purchased exactly the same but without the drive. The "added weight" of the drive system is miniscule. It is engaged with a lever that can be feathered one-handed by just opening your hand. Which, btw, I usually mow with one hand until I get to a place that I need to maneuver. It is not heavy, not cumbersome, and has a reliable drive that has no issue with traction. SP for me 100%.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
It would be even lighter with a two-stroke, a magnesium deck, no self-propelled and for less effort to get it rolling ballbearings on the wheels.


A two-stroke would probably be lighter, but I think the magnesium decks are actually heavier. This steel deck is fairly light gauge (but high quality; no rust). This self-propelled mower, all in, only weighs about 80 pounds.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
There are probably self-propelled mowers that maneuver obstacles better, maybe some Toros and Snappers.


I haven't come across any...and for the very reason you listed below.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
A lot of self-propelled mowers are heavy and cheaply made and the drive is cantankerous in tight areas.


This is the problem. Now that most mowers are self-propelled, most consumers couldn't care less about how much it weighs. This Lawn-Boy, at 80 pounds, is lighter than some cheap non-self-propelled mowers with much smaller engines. Most self-propelled mowers today weigh in at well over 100 pounds. Lawn-Boys have always been about light weight and maneuverability. The balance on these things is fantastic. It is absolutely no exaggeration to say that you could mow your entire yard with one hand in your pocket.


You get what I'm saying. If a mower is light enough, the slight increase in effort to push it up even slight grades is made up for in the ease of maneuverability in a lot of mowing situations. I realize that self propelled drive only adds about 7 lbs on average (that's not entirely insignificant) but also adds friction and inerta in the drive wheels and usually weight for a bigger engine to make up for the power robbed by the self propelled drive. But the main thing is the imperfect control and maneuverability around obstacles of the drive. I realize that varies between self propelled drives but I haven't experienced one that wasn't somewhat cantankerous.

I'm surprised the magnesium deck is heavier than the steel. But I'm sure a weight saving aluminum/magnesium deck of equal or greater strength compared to steel could be made due to the higher strength to weight.

I've bagged on my Honda mower but mostly because I don't like aspects of the carb, but the GCV160 is probably very light especially for OHV/OHC and plenty durable enough and an idea motor for non-commercial use.

My Honda HRS216 is only about 67lbs fully filled. This is a 21" steel deck mulcher. The mower is actually about 14 years old now and got little maintenance, and putting the carb aside, is plenty durable for residential use. The main thing is comparing it back to back with my newer self propelled 21", that's heavier and less nimble, it's very hard to conclude that the self propelled makes mowing easier.

My theory is the push mower could be even lighter and easier to push up grades. Get the weight down to 60lbs loaded or lower, an aluminum/maganesium deck, lightweight but strong aluminum wheels w/rubber tires that roll more true round and low friction ball bearings. For about the price premium of self propelled you could have a mower that is very easy to push around and actually easier than a heavy self propelled mower that drive is not nimble. Then maybe consider adding 10 lbs or so to this mower with self propell that actually maneuvers well.

I like gadgets and like the idea of self propelled, but a 100 pound mower with chintzy wobbly plastic wheels and drive isn't the answer.

Now, If you are bagging, a self propelled probably becomes more useful and necessary. How useful or not self propelled is depends on mowing situations and the mower of course.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I realize that varies between self propelled drives but I haven't experienced one that wasn't somewhat cantankerous.


No argument there. Try an older staggered-wheel Lawn-Boy if you ever have the chance. You'd be hooked.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
My theory is the push mower could be even lighter and easier to push up grades. Get the weight down to 60lbs loaded or lower, an aluminum/maganesium deck, lightweight but strong aluminum wheels w/rubber tires that roll more true round and low friction ball bearings. For about the price premium of self propelled you could have a mower that is very easy to push around and actually easier than a heavy self propelled mower that drive is not nimble. Then maybe consider adding 10 lbs or so to this mower with self propell that actually maneuvers well.


I like the way you think. What you've just described is a traditional Lawn-Boy. Even my newer one is only 80 pounds fully loaded, but some of the older ones (especially the 19" or 20" models) were in the 60-70 pound range. Very maneuverable. The key is good chassis balance. That's something that most modern mowers lack. Most of them, especially FWD models, are way too front heavy to be nimble.

 

[mechanicx]

I have used a push Lawnboy, staggered-wheel, steel deck, 2-stroke as a youth, but not in the obstacle course that's my current yard. I think it was 21 or 22". It was the only push mower that held up in conditions that should've been mowed with a large riding mower or commercial. It was a non-mulcher, side discharge of course, but I never bag and don't like heavier rear discharge decks. I think if I didn't live in the suburbs, I wouldn't even want mulching mowers, just side discharge...I wonder if the Lawn boy's front mounted side discharge works better than others?

You explained the logic behind the staggered wheel. At the time I didn't get it, partly because I was mowing with mower cut height too low and over rough ground.

Also you're right about Honda recommending mulching counter clockwise. It's more convenient to mow parts of my lawn clockwise due to slopes, and then I mow most of the rest clockwise too out of habit. That might at least partly explain the not so great cut quality I get with my Honda.

As far as weight and maneuverability, I never seen a 21" mulcher push mower as light and nimble as the Honda HRS. I think it's under 67lbs wet. I don't think even 19-20" small engined discharge mowers are any lighter. And the HRS is not a flimsy deck or wheels. The GCV160 might be light maybe even lighter than B&S side valve, but there's heavier mowers with a GCV160, and lighter mowers with B&S.

Maybe there the potential to go even lighter 21" even with out a 2 stroke. Does the Lawn boy have a lighter weight deck than even the HRS? Maybe a staggered wheel aluminum/magnesium deck side discharge, a 140 engine and we're under 60lbs lol.

 

[mechanicx]

Also besides weight, with even RWD propel back drag I think it's called (drive not quickly and fully disengaging) when you back away from an object is the main problem. Also not having true differential action in turning, the drive lever slack not allowing the mower to quickly easily be backed up or maneuvered. Are there self propelled that don't have any of those issues and for under $600. I haven't seen it, but maybe having a hand control lever as opposed to the whole handl grip controlling the drive or maybe the upper models of Snapper propelled do.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Also besides weight, with even RWD propel back drag I think it's called (drive not quickly and fully disengaging) when you back away from an object is the main problem. Also not having true differential action in turning, the drive lever slack not allowing the mower to quickly easily be backed up or maneuvered. Are there self propelled that don't have any of those issues and for under $600. I haven't seen it, but maybe having a hand control lever as opposed to the whole handl grip controlling the drive or maybe the upper models of Snapper propelled do.


My FWD Craftsman has no maneuverability issues. Goes backward immediately when you let off the drive, easy to get around stuff (just lift up the front wheels). I'd say any FWD mower would be about the same.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Also besides weight, with even RWD propel back drag I think it's called (drive not quickly and fully disengaging) when you back away from an object is the main problem. Also not having true differential action in turning, the drive lever slack not allowing the mower to quickly easily be backed up or maneuvered. Are there self propelled that don't have any of those issues and for under $600. I haven't seen it, but maybe having a hand control lever as opposed to the whole handl grip controlling the drive or maybe the upper models of Snapper propelled do.


My Lawn-Boy 10330 has to roll forward just a touch for the "pawls" in the wheels to release and let it roll back. This is only an issue the first time you mow. You quickly understand how it works and let the drive bail release just before you want to stop and let the mower roll forward on momentum. You can back it up quite easily then.

My Lawn-Boy 8157 is very stiff rolling backwards, but I believe it's because it has original grease in the transmission and it's set up. This is the new-and-unused mower I got last year; it's a 1987 model. It sat up for 25 years before ever being used. Any issue that that mower has I write it up to that. But still, this is a very cumbersome mower to use. It's a conventional four-square design that Lawn-Boy tried to popularize, but it never caught on. Nothing mows like a good staggered-wheel Lawn-Boy and these four-square mowers never sold well. Anyway, it's long, and it has a very early implementation of now-popular Easy Stride or Personal Pace or whatever the buzz word is. You push the back of the handle and it goes forward. The reason it's so cumbersome to use is you have to physically place yourself behind the mower and walk into the back of it. It's very unlike pulling a control bail, which I much prefer. For that reason, it's very difficult to turn this mower while under power.

I have zero back-dragging from the Honda HR215SXA. And there's also zero drag pulling it forward or back from the drive system. Each wheel uses a small type of over-running clutch...you can hear it clicking as you roll it forward. When you roll it backward, the axle shaft turns but the transmission is not engaged. There's no belt to drag in the system either; it's a shaft drive so it's as close to an automotive type drive as you can get.

What drives me nuts is the FWD mowers always turn the transmission forward and reverse, and those add quite a bit of drag to the system. It's a very rudimentary design. It works okay, but the engineer in me knows that the engineers who designed it must have been frustrated by the cost constraints that were placed on them.

I'm on the look-out for a Snapper with the disc drive. That's a really cool drive system with a full operating differential. I think it's one of a kind (or close to it) in the walk-behind mower category. Problem is, most of the Snappers around here are the rear engine riders; the walk-behinds are very uncommon.

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah my self propelled has a pivoting lever handle drive control, so in a sense there's slack and not a solid connection of the handle bar to the mower chassis. It's great for smoothing out rolling over rough lawn, but is bad for maneuverability.

With the hard obstacles the mower has to run up against and with the pivoting handlebar drive, it's nearly impossible to disengage the drive before running into the obstacle to unlock the drive and prevent back drag. It has a lot of back drag when it runs into an obstacle. So it's bang stop into obstacle, pull back with back drag, push forward to release drive, pull back to back away maneuver around obstacle, etc.

I've really been interested in the Snapper Ninja with disk drive and real differential. I'm thinking no back drag and easy turning with the differential. Plus the hand operated lever should make maneuverability better. And while I wasn't sure about the separate speed control lever, actually that might be idea. One lever quickly and cleanly engages/disengages the drive and a separate lever sets the speed just right might just give the best control of the drive. It just might have one of the top drives at $500, half the price of others with commercial-level drives. Made in the USA too.

If that's so then my thinking is give me a Snapper disk drive or just give me a light push mower. None of that heavy and cheaply made in between self propelled stuff.

 

[afoulk]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yeah my self propelled has a pivoting lever handle drive control, so in a sense there's slack and not a solid connection of the handle bar to the mower chassis. It's great for smoothing out rolling over rough lawn, but is bad for maneuverability.

With the hard obstacles the mower has to run up against and with the pivoting handlebar drive, it's nearly impossible to disengage the drive before running into the obstacle to unlock the drive and prevent back drag. It has a lot of back drag when it runs into an obstacle. So it's bang stop into obstacle, pull back with back drag, push forward to release drive, pull back to back away maneuver around obstacle, etc.

I've really been interested in the Snapper Ninja with disk drive and real differential. I'm thinking no back drag and easy turning with the differential. Plus the hand operated lever should make maneuverability better. And while I wasn't sure about the separate speed control lever, actually that might be idea. One lever quickly and cleanly engages/disengages the drive and a separate lever sets the speed just right might just give the best control of the drive. It just might have one of the top drives at $500, half the price of others with commercial-level drives. Made in the USA too.

If that's so then my thinking is give me a Snapper disk drive or just give me a light push mower. None of that heavy and cheaply made in between self propelled stuff.

I love the operation of my snappers disk drive, very easy to adjust speed, disengages instantly (lots of obstacles in my yard), and it turns very easily. and while three system looks overly complicated, its actually very simplein its operation. Only downside us some people have complained about traction on hilly terrain because of the open differential, but my yard is flat, so I haven't really had an issue.

 

[mechanicx]

So the Snapper disk drive is variable speed controlled on a separate lever and not stepped speeds? The drive is belt driven right? I need to look at disk drive assembly and see how it is set up.

 

[afoulk]

No, there are detents on the shift lever, so you have 5 or 6 seperate speeds.

 

[mechanicx]

5 or 6 speeds sounds like more finite control of speed than the personal pace variable speed ones.

I noticed Toro's heavy duty commercial mower has a 3 speed drive instead of personal pace. I'm starting to think all those personal pace drives are kind of cheap and have back drag.

 

[TFB1]

Snappers have six drive speed settings and if it also has a throttle control(all the older ones did) the variables are almost endless... The speed control moves a rubber tire across the rotating disc that in turn drives a pulley which drives a small flat belt(think mini serpentine)... A adj idler places tension on the belt which is what engages the drive, in 28 years I'm yet to see this belt fail due to normal wear... I did have one that stretched because the differential was leaking, that one was over filled by the PO...

 

[earthworm]

In a sense, there is NO best mower.
Its all one huge and varying compromise.
I was satisfied with my 6 year old LawnBoy (actually Toro) Personal Pace.
So, now, the Simplicity ZT 16 44 is the main unit and the LB does the trimming.
For me I'd think that a 30" Honda top of the line would be best....but this exists not.