I called Purolator about PL14610 flow rate.

[Sayjac]

The definitive thread regarding P1 Flow vs PSID from Purolator which has been much posted, shows P1 flow rate/characteristics to be excellent. But even in this thread the urban legend about poor P1 flow causing noise continues.

Pure One Flow vs PSID

Add that to the fact that an engines oil system is ~15x more restrictive than the filter, and oil filter flow is an insignificant consideration in pc use. But, that tidbit was already posted in your previous Honda filter thread.

And contrary to the comment about your Honda not agreeing with the PL14610, my experience has been the opposite. I've used many PL14610's in different Honda's and never experienced any start up rattle/noise difference between it and the Honda rock catcher A-02. Using a PL14610 right now on a on 3.0L Accord and it's quiet and smooth as always.

That said, if you are still concerned just use the Honda A-02 and be done with it. Which after the recent Honda filter thread I was under the impression you were going to do.

 

[72Cude426]

Greg

I don't post on here much, but one thing I know don't never say anything about their precious PureOne oil filter or Pennzoil.
Give it up Purolator or Pennzoil can never do anything wrong.

P1

WIX

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: 72Cude426
Greg

I don't post on here much, but one thing I know don't never say anything about their precious PureOne oil filter or Pennzoil.
Give it up Purolator or Pennzoil can never do anything wrong.

P1

WIX

well thats ok, i really like pennzoil, i cant wait to send mine off for a uoa with the honda filter to see how it did.

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
Greg,

FWIW, the few times I tried P1 filters, I experienced displeasure with them as well. I asked about the 'restrictiveness' of the P1 filters on the oil filters board and was rebuked for it. 'P1 filters are the best filters out there and they'll flow more than your engine requires and yada yada yada' they said. But whatever, I didn't 'like' them in my application so I shut up, switched to a filter that my truck likes better, and moved on. If you don't like the P1 for some reason, pick a different filter. You're not going to get anyone on this board to tell you anything you want to hear about the P1, so move on. There are other good filters out there with silicone ADBVs - pick one and try it out.

And stop talking bad about their precious P1 or they'll condemn you for it.

And BTW, it is generally understood that Japanese OE filters are 'flow over filration', and the P1 is the polar opposite. Try something in between.


Ok, what would your recommendation of "in between" be? Im willing to try, im not set on the honda oem or P1. Ive already tried the fram ultra and it was ok, but seemed to have some start up tick. Always had the Napa pro select on when i had the shop change the oil (before i knew how) and it had more tick then the fram it seems like, im guessing because of the nitrile vs silicone adbv. I saw the honda favored flow so i tried one out and seems like tick is quieter and less often. Just dont like the poor filtration. So im open to anything really. what would be a good in between filter for decent flow decent filtration?

 

[72Cude426]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: 72Cude426
Greg

I don't post on here much, but one thing I know don't never say anything about their precious PureOne oil filter or Pennzoil.
Give it up Purolator or Pennzoil can never do anything wrong.

P1

WIX

well thats ok, i really like pennzoil, i cant wait to send mine off for a uoa with the honda filter to see how it did.


I like Pennzoil to just using that as a point. Some people just go over board with some brands. My challenger does not like the P1 at all it gets WIX, but my RAM works great with them.

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: 72Cude426
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: 72Cude426
Greg

I don't post on here much, but one thing I know don't never say anything about their precious PureOne oil filter or Pennzoil.
Give it up Purolator or Pennzoil can never do anything wrong.

P1

WIX

well thats ok, i really like pennzoil, i cant wait to send mine off for a uoa with the honda filter to see how it did.


I like Pennzoil to just using that as a point. Some people just go over board with some brands. My challenger does not like the P1 at all it gets WIX, but my RAM works great with them.


do you have any data on wix for honda applications?

 

[rrounds]

Not data but I have pics of the Honda PCX filter for the S2000 and a Wix filter for the S2000 along with the Baldwin B7042 I use on my '06 S2000

http://s949.photobucket.com/user/rrounds/library/Oil Filters?sort=2&page=1

ROD

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Ok, what would your recommendation of "in between" be?


As mentioned above several times, WIX/NAPA Gold/CarQuest (all identical) is THEE in-between filter. It should filter better than the Honda and be less restrictive than the Purolator Pure One. It is the high quality filter choice for those of us who strattle the fence, walk the middle of the road.

If you search BITOG over the past 10 years for posts comparing WIX vs. P1, the anecdotal consensus here is:

Wix is "better built", flows better, filters less

vs.

Pure One is "lesser built", flows less, filters better.

Wix/Napa Gold/Car Quest is your next filter to try.

If you have any qualms of WIX being off brand vs. Fram, Purolater, etc., DON'T. Because of their availabilty and HUGE range of applications (vehicles,ag. construction,grounds, cycles, etc.) I would wager they might be the most used filters in the U.S. for commercial use. My workplace uses them on literally millions of dollars of vehicles and equipment. If you visit me, I can get all the WIX oil filters you want at $3.60 each with my workplace discount.

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Ok, what would your recommendation of "in between" be?


As mentioned above several times, WIX/NAPA Gold/CarQuest (all identical) is THEE in-between filter. It should filter better than the Honda and be less restrictive than the Purolator Pure One. It is the high quality filter choice for those of us who strattle the fence, walk the middle of the road.

If you search BITOG over the past 10 years for posts comparing WIX vs. P1, the anecdotal consensus here is:

Wix is "better built", flows better, filters less

vs.

Pure One is "lesser built", flows less, filters better.

Wix/Napa Gold/Car Quest is your next filter to try.

If you have any qualms of WIX being off brand vs. Fram, Purolater, etc., DON'T. Because of their availabilty and HUGE range of applications (vehicles,ag. construction,grounds, cycles, etc.) I would wager they might be the most used filters in the U.S. for commercial use. My workplace uses them on literally millions of dollars of vehicles and equipment. If you visit me, I can get all the WIX oil filters you want at $3.60 each with my workplace discount.


Ok does the wix for the honda 2.4 have a silicone adbv?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
... more start up tick than i liked. What would be "too high" psid for a filter

Greg: Nobody knows outside of high dollar race teams - nobody has a good setup to test PSID in situ.


Our own Jim Allen does. Don't you guys read here?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
I called Purolator about the PureONE 14610 flow rate for my Honda application. I was given the phone number of a engineer there and I spoken with him for a while. I gave him my email address so he could give me the info. Here is what he sent me....
The flow rate of the PureONE to the Honda oil filters.


P/N 3 gpm
Honda 0.9
Purolator 2.4

I emailed him back because I was confused, and he quickly emailed back with this...

Hi ______, at 3 pgm they are 0.9 psi and 2.4 psi.

Can anyone explain this to me?? Im still confused. Can you put it in terms I can understand, or just explain what it means. Thanks!


It means that the Honda filter develops 0.9 psi differential (aka PSID) across the media @ 3 GPM oil flow, and that the PureOne develops 2.4 PSID under the same conditions.

Purolator failed to say what the VISCOSITY of the oil was ... I'm assumimg something like 5W-30 at around 200 deg F.

READ THIS FREAKING THREAD AND YOU MIGHT UNDERSTAND IT MORE.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

BTW - a POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT OIL PUMP doesn't care if a filter had 0.9 or 2.4 PSID because it will force every ounce through either one. Please go do an internet search for POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT OIL PUMP and learn how they work and then you will understand how an oiling system works on a car, and that really no filter is "restrictive" unless the oil pump is in pressure relief, which isn't very often.

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I called Purolator about the PureONE 14610 flow rate for my Honda application. I was given the phone number of a engineer there and I spoken with him for a while. I gave him my email address so he could give me the info. Here is what he sent me....
The flow rate of the PureONE to the Honda oil filters.


P/N 3 gpm
Honda 0.9
Purolator 2.4

I emailed him back because I was confused, and he quickly emailed back with this...

Hi ______, at 3 pgm they are 0.9 psi and 2.4 psi.

Can anyone explain this to me?? Im still confused. Can you put it in terms I can understand, or just explain what it means. Thanks!


It means that the Honda filter develops 0.9 psi differential (aka PSID) across the media @ 3 GPM oil flow, and that the PureOne develops 2.4 PSID under the same conditions.

Purolator failed to say what the VISCOSITY of the oil was ... I'm assumimg something like 5W-30 at around 200 deg F.

READ THIS FREAKING THREAD AND YOU MIGHT UNDERSTAND IT MORE.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

BTW - a POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT OIL PUMP doesn't care if a filter had 0.9 or 2.4 PSID because it will force every ounce through either one. Please go do an internet search for POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT OIL PUMP and learn how they work and then you will understand how an oiling system works on a car, and that really no filter is "restrictive" unless the oil pump is in pressure relief, which isn't very often.


If the oil pump doesnt care since its "positive displacement" then why does my car tick with more restrictive filers? And wouldnt that wear out the oil pump sooner? Forcing it to work harder?

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I called Purolator about the PureONE 14610 flow rate for my Honda application. I was given the phone number of a engineer there and I spoken with him for a while. I gave him my email address so he could give me the info. Here is what he sent me....
The flow rate of the PureONE to the Honda oil filters.


P/N 3 gpm
Honda 0.9
Purolator 2.4

I emailed him back because I was confused, and he quickly emailed back with this...

Hi ______, at 3 pgm they are 0.9 psi and 2.4 psi.

Can anyone explain this to me?? Im still confused. Can you put it in terms I can understand, or just explain what it means. Thanks!


It means that the Honda filter develops 0.9 psi differential (aka PSID) across the media @ 3 GPM oil flow, and that the PureOne develops 2.4 PSID under the same conditions.

Purolator failed to say what the VISCOSITY of the oil was ... I'm assumimg something like 5W-30 at around 200 deg F.

READ THIS FREAKING THREAD AND YOU MIGHT UNDERSTAND IT MORE.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

BTW - a POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT OIL PUMP doesn't care if a filter had 0.9 or 2.4 PSID because it will force every ounce through either one. Please go do an internet search for POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT OIL PUMP and learn how they work and then you will understand how an oiling system works on a car, and that really no filter is "restrictive" unless the oil pump is in pressure relief, which isn't very often.


If the oil pump doesnt care since its "positive displacement" then why does my car tick with more restrictive filers? And wouldnt that wear out the oil pump sooner? Forcing it to work harder?


Ok I read that "freaking post" as you called it, and that suggests that that particular oil filter flows better than the honda appication from purolator 14610 and the honda has poorer filtration (99.9%) at 40 microns. how is that possible?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
If the oil pump doesnt care since its "positive displacement" then why does my car tick with more restrictive filers? And wouldnt that wear out the oil pump sooner? Forcing it to work harder?


I've asked you a few time some specific questions about your "tick", but never hear an answer. We need to know more specifics on when the tick occurs and doesn't occur.

1) Is the tick only on cold starts after the car's sat a while?
2) Is the tick all the time while the engine is running and the oil is hot?
3) Have you EVER had a filter that doesn't cause any tick?
4) How many miles are on this car?

Maybe your oil pump is shot or there is some other oiling system issue going on, and no filter will stop the tick.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Ok I read that "freaking post" as you called it, and that suggests that that particular oil filter flows better than the honda appication from purolator 14610 and the honda has poorer filtration (99.9%) at 40 microns. how is that possible?


Did you read it all? ... not in a few minutes. That filter was tested on a certified flow bench and it shows just how NONRESTRICTIVE oil filters are in general. If your engine pukes over a 1 o 2 PSID increase on an oil filter then there is something wrong besides the oil filter.

Like I said, Purolator did not say at what viscosity the PSID numbers they gave you correlated to. The numbers they gave you might have been with thicker/colder oil (higher viscosity). Without that info from Purolator the data they gave you is somewhat useless.

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: gregk24
If the oil pump doesnt care since its "positive displacement" then why does my car tick with more restrictive filers? And wouldnt that wear out the oil pump sooner? Forcing it to work harder?


I've asked you a few time some specific questions about your "tick", but never hear an answer. We need to know more specifics on when the tick occurs and doesn't occur.

1) Is the tick only on cold starts after the car's sat a while?
2) Is the tick all the time while the engine is running and the oil is hot?
3) Have you EVER had a filter that doesn't cause any tick?
4) How many miles are on this car?

Maybe your oil pump is shot or there is some other oiling system issue going on, and no filter will stop the tick.


I have answered but i dont mind answering again
1)It does tick a little on the first start of the morning, it doesnt sound unusual. It makes this noise only upon start up. Usually after about 3-4 hours after the car has been driven, its the loudest then. Its a single tick, not multiple ticks.
2) no it doesnt happen when the car is running and hot. Again it only happens on start up. now that i think about it, its happened a couple times after getting gas. It happens upon start after filling up.
3) I just started changing my own oil. the shop used napa pro select, yes it ticked with that, i used a fram ultra, ticked less but still happened, now have a honda oem a01 and ticks the least with this.
4) 113,700 miles.
OH AND....this tick is intermittent, which i guess is a good thing, idk. It seems to happen once a week maybe. if that. Just a single tick tick tick tick that quiets down after a couple seconds. Sounds like a valve or something doesnt have oil at first then once the oil makes it there its goes away. Hope this helps.

ALSO...when i changed the oil and used fram ultra, the engine knocked for a couple seconds, not long at all, until everything pressurised. When i changed the oil and used honda filter no knocking, and it pressurized just as quick as a regular start.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
If the oil pump doesnt care since its "positive displacement" then why does my car tick with more restrictive filers? And wouldnt that wear out the oil pump sooner? Forcing it to work harder?


An oil pump is designed to operate all the way up to the pressure relief point (most cars are around 70~90 PSI). It having to work an extra PSI or two due to the restrictiveness difference between oil filters isn't going to put any undue stress on it. IF the oil is not changed very ofter and crud gets in the oil, then the oil pump can see wear, and that will in turn make the oil leak past the rotors in the pump and it will become inefficient, meaning it's "worn out", and won't be able to put as much displacement out with every revolution because of internal pressure leakage. And if it's really worn out, might not even be able to hit pressure relief anymore.

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: gregk24
If the oil pump doesnt care since its "positive displacement" then why does my car tick with more restrictive filers? And wouldnt that wear out the oil pump sooner? Forcing it to work harder?


An oil pump is designed to operate all the way up to the pressure relief point (most cars are around 70~90 PSI). It having to work an extra PSI or two due to the restrictiveness difference between oil filters isn't going to put any undue stress on it. IF the oil is not changed very ofter and crud gets in the oil, then the oil pump can see wear, and that will in turn make the oil leak past the rotors in the pump and it will become inefficient, meaning it's "worn out", and won't be able to put as much displacement out with every revolution because of internal pressure leakage. And if it's really worn out, might not even be able to hit pressure relief anymore.


ok, learned something new. thanks! any idea what this tick might be though, now that i gave you a little more info?

 

[mechanicx]

Quote:
and that really no filter is "restrictive" unless the oil pump is in pressure relief, which isn't very often.


Oil pumps might be in pressure relief at higher RPM though. If a P1 filter worse case scenario is 5 psid higher than the OE filter and bleeding off a little more oil when in pressure relief, it's probably not significant oil flow loss though. I don't think it matters because it's all lower than the filter bypass psi, so you got to figure the engine can tolerate psid lower than filter bypass setting.

But I wonder how much more restrictive do the P1 get when loaded and might they hit bypass levels at high rpm especially when the oil is not warmed up.

 

[dnewton3]

This topic is so misunderstood at times. Some of you clearly get it, some don't.

You have to put bounds upon a question, because if left unopened, the answer will not make sense.

- If you have a fixed flow rate, then you can speak to an efficiency rating.
- If you have a fixed efficiency, then you can speak to flow.

You cannot ask how two filters will flow relative to each other, with no constant, and have any understanding of how well something performs.

Gary Allan, GRHS, would remind us all that the filtration triangle (size, efficiency, lifecycle) cannot be averted. When you hold one constant, the other two will generally be effected in an inversely critical manner (not always proportional, but perhaps close).

You cannot ask which filter flows "more" without understanding what size the filter is, and what beta it provides. And to really envelop the concept, you're going to want to know the delta P setting and total holding capacity.

Two filters could flow 3gpm, but one could be huge and pass that volume while filtering particulate with great accord, while the other is nearly seive-like. The example the engineer gave is just such an example. The Puro filter has a greater delta P because it's likely filtering "better" (I truly dislike that term at times), while passing the same amount of fluid. However, depending upon the d-P bypass setting, that Puro filter may become "worse" if it is run to a manner of blinding the media and running "open" all the time ...


As to the topic of flow relative to the pump at high rpm, I'll mention this ...
Typical filters have roughly 2x the flow "needed" for typical operation. If you look over the Wix offerings, just about all of them are 7-9gmp, or a bit higher. I suspect they are typical of the market, and not unique in that manner. Most any decent brand filter is going to be able to pass way more volume than the pump will deliver.

What you might want to consider, is what amount of fluid will pass, in regard to some delta P event. Jim Allen is seeing that the bypass rarely ever opens, and even when it does, it's only during cold oil, high rpm events, which are rare. And only for a very small duration of time as well. The engine itself offers way more delta P than does the filter, generally. The way to know if your filter cannot pass enough fluid is to watch for delta-P to usurp the bypass setting; that is super-infrequent according to him. So, just about any filter will pass enough volume to satisfy the system requirements, especially once the oil is warmed up.

Genearlly, any decent filter will pass way more than the engine needs, so "flow" capability is pretty much irrelavent.

Asking which filter flows more is a boundless question, because the parameters of other conditions play into that rating.

This silliness reminds me of the age-old question you ask some dimwit:
Which is longer: Six inches or half a foot?