verdict on MT-10 metal treatment?

[yota4me]

http://www.mpc-home.com/products-automotive-mt10.php
Anyone have any experience with MT-10 Metal Treatment?
Is it/does it become corrosive in engine, transmission, differential, power steering, etc.?

 

[jonny-b]

Hello, yota4me. I tested it 6 years ago. I used it in my engine and in my powersteering. I did not notice a marked improvement of anything, but when I lost all water from my radiator, I was able to drive 70-80 miles, without the engine taking any damage from this. This was an older Peugot diesel I drove these days. I think this stuff saved my engine. However, lately I have come across another additive that makes a really noticable change in both performance and fuel-economy. It is called www.xado.com It does all what Mt10 says it does, and more. It is also much cheaper, since it lasts some 100 000miles. By the way, a lot of race-entusiasts were using Mt10 to treat their engines around year 2000 were I live. I don't think it is so popular now. Probably because better stuff have come across. Do a google search for boarder-line lubrication and see what you find.

 

[Tempest]

I just received some and am going to try it out. Though I too am interested in any first hand experience that anyone would like to share.

FWIW, MPC makes one of the best (if not the best) gun lubes/CLP (FP10) out there, and it is recommended by name by several gun manufactures. I use it, and I have researched it extensively on the net. I have yet to hear of one case of a firearm rusting or corroding with FP10 which is about 30% MT10.

The technical papers on how MT10 works are available on their website Here. It's written in techno-speak, but seems to make sense. Maybe Molakule can take a look and translate it into regular speak? Especially the third one on the page.

Their MSDS' are also quite good compared to a lot of companies. The FP10 MSDS gives full disclosure.

No I don't work for them, I just really like their FP10 as it does all that they claim.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

The FP10 MSDS gives full disclosure.

---

Don't think so and only what they want you to know. Look at the percentages which are typical of MSDS babble speak.

They have to do this to protect their formulations.

 

[bruce381]

has chlorinated pariffin which is the "EP" additve most ALL "metal" treatments snake oils use, this will carry a very high load and reduce scuffing.

BUT get it hot in a IC engine and it WILL decompose at >300F into HCL acids amongst others this will eat up all the TBN in a PCMO and WILL cause rust and worse bearing corrosion.

The better additives if you can say that add in some extra CA sulfonate to Neutralize the acids
formed and to help renew the TBN in the base motor oil.

probably OK if oil changed offten but way to costly with the above problems.

Chloro Pariffins in a humid enviroment also equal corriosn over time MY gun oils use NO acids or chloro products snake oil IMHO.

Also antidotal?? evedence of never hearing of a rust problem is Not good for me I have run Chloro Pariffins (NOT this one tho) in a 100% humidity cabinet and rust protection was not very good
WD-40 was better if it works for you great but not for me.

Also rember guns normally do not get >200F for very long and as such the chlor parifin has less chance to form acids.

bruce

 

[Tempest]

Ok, maybe not full disclosure (I over generalized, sorry). But the percentages (66+30+1+3) do add up to %100. And at least they list the CAS #'s.

No break down or other opinions?? I have read your techinial papers and am very impressed.

 

[bruce381]

Funny also they say "semi syn Hydrocarbon oil"
but the cas # is for a Hydrotreated heavy napthenic oil that is sloppy.
bruce

 

[Tempest1]

I am aware of the potential problems of chlorinated paraffins. You are right, most of them can and will break down into HCl. You are also right that "snake oils" (Militec-1, and probably Armalube)take advantage of the initial good results, without engineering for the long term effects of the break down. Militec is also pure additive designed to be put into a base oil, yet they sell it as a stand alone gun product. MPC does not advocate the use of MT10 as a stand alone product for any application. Strictly as an additive.

I'll assume that you did not read the technical MT10 Paper (it's only 3 pages) on their web sight that I linked to. It explains that there is an acid scavenger built into the formula to alleviate the normal corrosion problems. Either that, or you are prepared to debunk it, which I would love to hear.

Anecdotal evidence is about all there is to research on the anti-corrosion properties of gun lubes. There are plenty of tests to look at on the web, but they are all "shade tree" non-standardized experiments. I have seen no extensive standardized tests conducted by recognized labs in this area. If you are aware of some, please let me know.

I for one have had very little problems with rusting on firearms no matter what I used, but you won't see Militec anywhere near them either. Might I ask what lube product you are using for your weapons??

I agree that many guns don't get to 200+F, but machine guns can. Also, a rifle cartridge can generate 50,000+psi of hot gas, not to mention the EP the bullet creates as it engages the rifling (@ thousands of RPM) and slides down the barrel. I would say that that is a pretty extreme environment.

Please clarify what you mean by "sloppy". According to what I found on the CAS #, it can be a multitude of different formulations, but they all fall under the same CAS. FP10 is also the only product that they give "near full" disclosure on. Other products have some info left out so it's not like MPC is altruistic.

Missing information is the norm on MSDS' as I have found. However, I have also found that a well documented MSDS is a sign of a company that is customer oriented, and believes in/supports their product. Militec and Armalube disclose NOTHING of their contents. Still other companies have NO MSDS at all, leaving the customer totally in the dark.

Anyway, more to the topic, I was hoping that Molakule would take a look at the papers and see what he thought. As from the past posts I have read, he has been quite willing to expound on various topics. It's also obvious that he knows what he is doing, and since he his a lubrication chemist/engineer/specialist/tribologist (whatever the proper term is) he would be qualified to at least give an educated opinion on the product. If he (or anyone else qualified) were to find a problem with the tribology/chemistry listed in the papers, it would be most interesting to me.

Tempest

P.S. I had to make another account because I did not have my log in information here at my house.

I will ask the mods on Monday to delete this account.

 

[bruce381]

""I'll assume that you did not read the technical MT10 Paper (it's only 3 pages) on their web sight that I linked to. It explains that there is an acid scavenger built into the formula to alleviate the normal corrosion problems. Either that, or you are prepared to debunk it, which I would love to hear."""

Do not really care about this stuff since chlor type lubes have been around for years and all have a water/humidity corrosion of some degree I will not put anything with CL or acids on my guns.

""Please clarify what you mean by "sloppy"

Look up the CAS # that they say is a semi Syn Hydrocarbon it is on fact a heavy hydrotreated
napthtenic oil.

CAS#'s are precise enough to get you into the "family" that the number keys to.
Napthenic oils are NOT semi syn at all. Unless you make the argument the they are hydro treated and thus syntectic I dought it.


""I agree that many guns don't get to 200+F, but machine guns can.""

Qaulity guns and I would guess Mil machine guns are mostly chrome steel which has a slight built in corrsoion resitance my old Ford has cast iorn.

High temps for a peroiod of time will form acids it they build in enough BASE then the lube could work for a while in a IC engine BUT you must know when the TBN is gone and change out accordinly.

The Papers are wordy in that they do not really say anything new to me just explaining the AW effect and corrosion inhibiton.


The MSDS IF accurate which I doubt shows a nap oil with a chlor pariffin with a smaller percentage of ZDDP and a little calcium sulfonate as a corrosion inhibitor.

This is like the Power UP and other chlor products if you want to buy this I sell this type product as a stainless steel cutting oil $7.00 gallon what do they charge?

Use it but just keep eye on guns and if in a engine run a TBN from time to time.


bruce

 

[Tempest]

According to this post at 1911 Forum by George Fennell, former VP of MPC and formulator of MT10 and FP10:

quote:

---

FP-10 employs a very unique semi-synthetic/naphthenic-type base oil that has an incredibly light consistency and viscosity with superior surface spread characteristics. I have explained it before as an oil that has "solvent-like" characteristics without being a solvent.

---

I can verify those qualities from personal use, if not the exact composition.

As far as the chlorination, he had this to say responding to another poster over on the The Firing Line:

quote:

---

Halogenation of the metal will occur even in sub-zero temperatures, providing that the metal surfaces are contacting each othe under boundary conditions, which cause the surface asparities to "rub together", even through the oil film, and generate instantaneous high temperatures (well over 210 deg F, which is the point of molecular disassociation of the halogen itself) that cool as quickly as they are formed. This is much like rubbing your hands together when cold and generating heat through frictional contacts of "skin on skin". This same affect will cause a halogen to react to the metal surfaces even in cold ambient conditions.
"Heating the guns" as you say would be not only silly, but pointless, as the process requires more than just heat (being only a catalyst) to work properly. It requires the use of other chemical reagents to properly address the metal surfaces in order to produce the desired transitional effects of asparity roll-out, surface spread characteristics, and the desired inhibition of runaway proteonic reactions. This is where all of that so called "hundreds of thousands of dollars research" that you referred to in another post about synthetic lubricants, comes in.
It is NOT just a simple "breaking of the chain" to form HCl and then the HCl attaching to the Ferrous molecules to form FeCl2. That process has been so heavily modified today that the acids you refer to are inherently "locked up" by the additional chemistries provided to the Halo-Carbons upon the release of the chlorine, fluorine, or bromine. The transitional reagents are THEN reacted to the surface in a more efficient and non-corrosive manner, using organo-metallic reagents similar to olefins and others of the same nature.

To correct your "other statement"....
Guns under normal conditions of operation CONSTANTLY achieve the necessary conditions to activate the necessary conditions to invoke the boundary film formation. Every time the reciever mechanism engages; everytime a slide cycles, every time a bolt is operated, everytime parts move against another is that time that the conditions are met, to their fullest capacity.

---

Which seems to be backed up by this Page at Wikipedia. Which states:

quote:

---

EP additives typically contain organic sulfur, phosphorus or chlorine compounds which chemically react with the metal surface under high pressure conditions. Under such conditions, small unevennesses on the sliding surfaces cause localized flashes of high temperature (300-1000 °C), without significant increase of the average surface temperature. The chemical reaction between the additive and the surface is confined to this area.

---

and

quote:

---

The activity of halogenated hydrocarbons increases with decreasing stability of the carbon-halogen bond. At local contact temperatures ranging between 305-330 °C, the additive thermally decomposes and the reactive halogen atoms form a surface layer of iron halogenides on the part surface. Eventual failure of the contact point comes when the contact temperature exceeds the melting point of the iron halide layer.

---

This means that the ambient operating temperature of the oil means very little. As the temperature at each individual asperity can be astronomically higher. This also slams a pie directly in Militec's face as they claim heating a weapon (as with a heat gun) will help their product be more effective.

He also explains more on how MT10 uses more than a simple chlorinated reaction to get the EP effect. And that there are indeed reagents in the formula to prevent corrosive elements from forming.

In other posts (don't have the link handy), he stated that MT10 uses long chain chlorinated hydrocarbons, rather than the more volatile short chains, because they are more stable and produce fewer problem causing by products.

 

[bruce381]

so what nothing new still sounds like::

Hydro treated nap in a low vis probably a 40 "pale" range which is like a kerosene/solvent vis.

long chain chlor paraffin C-14 to C-18
(every one uses long or medium chain short chain requires discharge monitoring data and is considered a skin carcinigen)


ZDDP

Ca sulfonate

every thing he says is WAY over embelished.
An he is using words and discriptions I have NEVER heard in the lube business in 32 years.
Still ask how much??

Lastly on this "Halogenation of the metal will occur even in sub-zero temperatures"

Not true unless frictional heat is enough this must be qualified in that a full auto machine fired a lot will get hot even at zub zero and I would exspect any chlor pariffin to react and form a boundry film BUT a 45 auto fired a few shots WILL not generate enough heat to cause any reaction. Many studies on the effects of various Anti scuff (EP) additves have been around a long
time.

I'm Done
end of story

bruce

[ April 17, 2006, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: bruce381 ]

 

[MolaKule]

What Bruce281 criticies is right on.

Here are some of points/issues these marketers and even manf. of these C14-C18 chlorinated parrafins or waxes won't tell you or can't tell you:

1. What is the optimum treat ratio? The raw halogenates (chlorinated parrafins) contain about 49% chlorine, a very reactive atomic element.

2. What is the decomposition temperature of these chlorines?

3. What happens to steel, copper-alloys, and cast iron when these halogenates decompose? Where is the data to show its as benign as they say it is? Does it pit metal after it decomposes?

4. What are the long-term effects of using this additive?

You had better have High base Ca Sulfonates and rust preventatives and other deactivators to reduce the acids generated by this product. And what are the interactions with conventional deactivators/buffers/rust preventers? Do the deactivators/buffers/rust preventers negate the EP effects of these CP's?

No manufacturer of these chlorinated products I have spoken to (3 companies so far) have been able to tell me what the correct or suggested buffers or deactivators should be used to reduce any acidic effects.

 

[MolaKule]

Also consider that there is a difference in EP additives, Friction Modification additives, and Anti-Wear (AW) additves.

Each is a different chemical compound with separate applications in the various regimes of the lubrication process.

 

[yota4me]

I feel quite forewarned about MT-10 and like products now--Thanks. Maybe moly, antimony,....

 

[yota4me]

Thanks for the replies.
So, I could conclude?:
MT-10 + water = probable corrosion
MT-10 + engine = corrosion questionable
I did try some once in a previous vehicle. It did lower the normal operating (water)temperature. I assume that meant less friction. I guess I'll give it another try sometime in a low value vehicle, then get UOA after about 5k mi.
What would indicate corrosion in UOA?