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#3023782 - 06/05/13 03:02 PM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: LeakySeals]
535678 Offline


Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 84
Loc: CA, United States
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Also if you have no external gasket leaks... In your climate I would try M1 0w40. A thicker operating weight will slow consumption in both areas discussed. Sold in the walmart jug now! Currently on rollback at $22.47 / 5qt jug

If you want to blend M1 HM 5w30 with M1 HM 10w40 thats fine too. Top off with a quart of M1 HM 10w40, see what that does.


Thanks for the tip!

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#3023802 - 06/05/13 03:15 PM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: 535678]
LeakySeals Offline


Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 5070
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: 535678
I thought Purolator PureONE were considered high efficiency/extended interval with synthetic media?
High efficiency? As high as an over the counter filter gets, yes. Synthetic media? No, resin/cellulose. Considered extended interval? Relative I guess. I consider 7k+ extended interval, some may not. Other factors include driving conditions and engine cleanliness. So maybe the P1 is ok for you, maybe close to clogging @10k. Because I don't know for sure, take the safe bet and recommend a extended interval high efficiency synthetic.

Are you ok going 10k with a P1? probably. If you notice the engine being unusually noisy at startup close to the end of the OCI, thats a clue that the flow is becoming diminished. Our engines are very sensitive to flow being vvt-i.
_________________________
02 Camry XLE 2AZ-FE 305k M1 HM 5w30, 9k OCI.
13 Malibu 9k unknown..

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#3024090 - 06/05/13 08:37 PM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: 535678]
timeau Offline


Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: 535678
This seems to be a common problem for those with Toyota 2AZ-FE (4 cylinder, 2.4L) engines. At higher mileages, oil burn suddenly increases.

Ever since I've kept careful notes. All fills listed below were with Mobil 1 HM 5W-30.

I am pretty sure that this is nothing to do with Toyota and this particular engine. I had the same problem on my 2005 Nissan Maxima. If you can, do the compression test. I am almost ready to bet that in will be above 220 psi. In other words, I am sure that your oil rings are stuck.

Get rid of M1 HM. Many synthetic oils, being heated on pistons, has a nasty feature to cover them by deposits. If you can read in Russian, there is a great oil-related blog. Probably this tool will be very useful as well. Just click the button and it is ready to use. Pictures shows deposits that were got heating oil to 380C (usual piston temperature).
Almost all mineral oils are stable and additives do not conform deposits. Many Group III synthetics do. You can see all pictures yourself, but this is my favorite (Lukoil mineral vs Lukoil Syn, oils were just heated in a spoon):


Conclusion: try to use pure mineral oil or syn blend. But I am 99% sure that it will not help. Check your compression, it should be easy on 4 cyl engine. If it is too high, I am right.
_________________________
-----
2005 Maxima SE
2000 Maxima GXE

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#3024339 - 06/06/13 06:27 AM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: 535678]
Char Baby Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7496
Loc: Rochester NY
My buddy and his daughter each have the Toyota 2AZ-FE motor

His-'04 Camry 115K, Hers-'07 Scion tC 100K

His burns no oil to speak of in 5K-6K OCI...Hers burns 1qt every 1K miles

He has tried many things such as HM oils and 10w40 oils or both(HM 10w40), to no avail.
_________________________
"Finally Retired"!

1980 Firebird FORMULA V8-NEW
2001 Lexus RX-300 V6-NEW
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5S-NEW
2006 Mazda 3i 2.0L-PreOwned

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#3024344 - 06/06/13 06:31 AM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: timeau]
LeakySeals Offline


Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 5070
Loc: MA
timeau - We know whats causing oil consumption in the 2AZ-FE, wrote about it. One teardown myself, followed several more online. Nothing to guess about. Valve seals or the same problem afflicting thousands of 98-02 1zz-fe 1.8L Toyota engines. Clogged piston oil return holes. Of course when the holes clog, it will throw more oil on the rings, possibly making them stick. Unless you fix "why rings stick", you will continue to have problems no matter how many times you jump to the ring conclusion. Probably the real reason your rings stick on the Nissan. That, and believing the Russians grin

Here is a 2AZ-FE piston with 320k on the clock torn down for oil consumption. Oil used was Castrol syntec, a semi blend. He had to drill the holes out. It was the only thing wrong.



That Russian site suggesting syn is more volatile than conventional has been discussed, testing method debunked many times by people on here that know oil better than I ever will. Really don't want to talk about it again. Post what you wrote in the forum, watch what happens.

What we do know is there is a high complaint rate for oil consumption on Toyotas, especially this engine. Oil used prior to, or when consumption started is dino 90% of the time. Some dinos more than others. People switch to syn to try to resolve it. By then its usually too late, holes are clogged. Thats the part your missing. The last thing they want to do is go back.

And lastly, I've been using M1 HM for 130k on the old Camry in my sig. No guessing here either. @10k intervals. So I know its not making things worse, quite the opposite. If it were I would stop using it.
_________________________
02 Camry XLE 2AZ-FE 305k M1 HM 5w30, 9k OCI.
13 Malibu 9k unknown..

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#3024350 - 06/06/13 06:40 AM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: Char Baby]
LeakySeals Offline


Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 5070
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
My buddy and his daughter each have the Toyota 2AZ-FE motor

His-'04 Camry 115K, Hers-'07 Scion tC 100K

His burns no oil to speak of in 5K-6K OCI...Hers burns 1qt every 1K miles

He has tried many things such as HM oils and 10w40 oils or both(HM 10w40), to no avail.

Hers has a known defect with the piston. Toyota changed pistons in those years (maybe trying to solve the clogging oil holes, created another problem? grin ) Its true, no oil can fix that.

http://www.rav4world.com/tsb/2011/T-SB-0094-11.pdf

No, the Scion tc is not included yet. But checking the engine code, you will see that it should be. Doesn't matter now, its gone beyond the warranty.
_________________________
02 Camry XLE 2AZ-FE 305k M1 HM 5w30, 9k OCI.
13 Malibu 9k unknown..

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#3024357 - 06/06/13 06:53 AM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: LeakySeals]
LeakySeals Offline


Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 5070
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
My buddy and his daughter each have the Toyota 2AZ-FE motor

His-'04 Camry 115K, Hers-'07 Scion tC 100K

His burns no oil to speak of in 5K-6K OCI...Hers burns 1qt every 1K miles

He has tried many things such as HM oils and 10w40 oils or both(HM 10w40), to no avail.

Hers has a known defect with the piston. Toyota changed pistons in those years (maybe trying to solve the clogging oil holes, created another problem? grin ) Its true, no oil can fix that.

http://www.rav4world.com/tsb/2011/T-SB-0094-11.pdf

No, the Scion tc is not included yet. But checking the engine code, you will see that it should be. Doesn't matter now, its gone beyond the warranty.

Doh!.. Because its a Scion its on its own. I forgot that.. Why its not included on the Toyota TSB.. Scion needs to make one of their own, which AFAIK, they have not.
_________________________
02 Camry XLE 2AZ-FE 305k M1 HM 5w30, 9k OCI.
13 Malibu 9k unknown..

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#3024449 - 06/06/13 08:28 AM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: LeakySeals]
timeau Offline


Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
timeau - We know whats causing oil consumption in the 2AZ-FE, wrote about it. One teardown myself, followed several more online. Nothing to guess about. Valve seals or the same problem afflicting thousands of 98-02 1zz-fe 1.8L Toyota engines.

Valve seal is easy to diagnose. Start your car on morning and if you have a blue smoke, disappeared shortly, this is a valve seal. Otherwise see below.

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Clogged piston oil return holes. Of course when the holes clog, it will throw more oil on the rings, possibly making them stick. Unless you fix "why rings stick", you will continue to have problems no matter how many times you jump to the ring conclusion. Probably the real reason your rings stick on the Nissan. That, and believing the Russians grin

And why holes got clogged? Due to deposits. Oil can't go into it, got overheated on rings and rings are stuck. Point by a finger where is the logical gap. In other words you are showing me a sick person and pointing an a high temperature of his body as a reason of a sickness. But this is just a consequence, not a reason of a problem. This man got frozen a day before. See a difference?

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Here is a 2AZ-FE piston with 320k on the clock torn down for oil consumption. Oil used was Castrol syntec, a semi blend. He had to drill the holes out. It was the only thing wrong.

I can't get what you wanted to prove. My point is that SOME synthetic oils, being heated, leave deposits on a piston, including holes. Any objections?

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
That Russian site suggesting syn is more volatile than conventional has been discussed

Really? Seems I lost an ability to read Russian grin Where is it written? Please, copy/paste this phrase grin
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
testing method debunked many times by people on here that know oil better than I ever will. Really don't want to talk about it again. Post what you wrote in the forum, watch what happens.

These are just nice politician words. Please, use technical language. For example:
1. Something here
2. Something there... etc.

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
What we do know is there is a high complaint rate for oil consumption on Toyotas, especially this engine. Oil used prior to, or when consumption started is dino 90% of the time. Some dinos more than others. People switch to syn to try to resolve it. By then its usually too late, holes are clogged. Thats the part your missing. The last thing they want to do is go back.

I am repeating my question again. What was the reason that holes got clogged that early? (on less than 100k miles) What you had pointed to is 320k, very respectful mileage. Even mineral oil can be a reason on this mileage. But not on 100k.

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
And lastly, I've been using M1 HM for 130k on the old Camry in my sig. No guessing here either. @10k intervals. So I know its not making things worse, quite the opposite. If it were I would stop using it.

Wait a little bit more and don't tell than that I did not warn you grin


Edited by timeau (06/06/13 08:30 AM)
_________________________
-----
2005 Maxima SE
2000 Maxima GXE

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#3024538 - 06/06/13 09:47 AM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: timeau]
LeakySeals Offline


Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 5070
Loc: MA
Already answered your questions repeatedly. See no reason to duplicate effort. We disagree, its that simple. The rest is up to the readers. The guy working on 2AZ-FE's or the guy posting in Russian working on Nissan's is right. Or we both wrong grin
_________________________
02 Camry XLE 2AZ-FE 305k M1 HM 5w30, 9k OCI.
13 Malibu 9k unknown..

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#3024628 - 06/06/13 11:25 AM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: 535678]
supercity Offline


Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 894
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Do the 1AZ-FE engines have the same issues? My Rav4 has 1AZ-FE and it has no oil consumption problems but it does give a small puff of blue smoke on startup sometimes.

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#3024681 - 06/06/13 12:14 PM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: supercity]
vinu_neuro Online   content


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1001
Loc: Chicago / IN
Originally Posted By: supercity
Do the 1AZ-FE engines have the same issues? My Rav4 has 1AZ-FE and it has no oil consumption problems but it does give a small puff of blue smoke on startup sometimes.


That's valve seals.
_________________________
04 Honda Accord Coupe V6 6MT | PU 5W-20

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#3024714 - 06/06/13 12:48 PM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: supercity]
LeakySeals Offline


Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 5070
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: supercity
Do the 1AZ-FE engines have the same issues? My Rav4 has 1AZ-FE and it has no oil consumption problems but it does give a small puff of blue smoke on startup sometimes.

Yep, valve seals. One of the 2 issues discussed. Your not noticing the oil consumption for one reason or another, but there has to be. Because thats what the blue smoke is. Oil that leaked into the cylinder from up above overnight. Burned off at startup. That also means during operation your burning oil too. More the faster you go. To replace them is simple, just requires the removal of the valve cover, cams with vvt-i cam gear, lifters, support the timing chain, remove timing tensioner. Now you can simply replace the seals grin Parts are $20, labor $500+. Why I recommend HM oil. See if that can swell them up and slow/stop the smoke/consumption.
_________________________
02 Camry XLE 2AZ-FE 305k M1 HM 5w30, 9k OCI.
13 Malibu 9k unknown..

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#3024800 - 06/06/13 01:46 PM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: LeakySeals]
timeau Offline


Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Parts are $20, labor $500+. Why I recommend HM oil. See if that can swell them up and slow/stop the smoke/consumption.

Please, don't consider me rude and I do not follow you here. But sometimes we thinks differently ;-) How HM oil can help here?
BMW N52 seals

Pictures from there. Please, pay attention on internal diameter.
[img:center]http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5638/16219540.7/0_94f57_2bfc16ae_XL[/img]
[img:center]http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4121/16219540.7/0_94f58_408df1af_XL[/img]
_________________________
-----
2005 Maxima SE
2000 Maxima GXE

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#3026795 - 06/08/13 11:05 AM Re: Toyota 2AZ-FE oil burn [Re: timeau]
LeakySeals Offline


Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 5070
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: timeau
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Parts are $20, labor $500+. Why I recommend HM oil. See if that can swell them up and slow/stop the smoke/consumption.

Please, don't consider me rude and I do not follow you here. But sometimes we thinks differently ;-) How HM oil can help here?
BMW N52 seals

Pictures from there. Please, pay attention on internal diameter.
[img:center]http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5638/16219540.7/0_94f57_2bfc16ae_XL[/img]
[img:center]http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4121/16219540.7/0_94f58_408df1af_XL[/img]

I can't respond to that engine, not familiar. But just looking (more Russian, cant read it), a HM could not swell that enough to make any difference. If the seals are easy to replace on the BMW, then do that instead. For the 2AZ-FE its not easy to replace if you can't DIY. So the labor can be expensive. Why you try a HM oil first. It sometimes helps depending on how far gone the seals are.
_________________________
02 Camry XLE 2AZ-FE 305k M1 HM 5w30, 9k OCI.
13 Malibu 9k unknown..

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