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#3024150 - 06/05/13 09:58 PM E-85. I think I'm a convert.
Grebbler Offline


Registered: 01/14/09
Posts: 79
Loc: SE Michigan, USA
I normally avoided this stuff like the plague. I used to travel a lot for work and I usually did my driving at night when open gas stations in the boonies were few and far between. I needed all the range I could get.

Now I stay around home and a nearby BP started carrying E-85 priced 60 cents below the cheap stuff. I gave it a shot and the Tahoe seems to like it.

I just finished a tank so the computer should be calibrated by now so I will start the MPG logs. The current price spread is 90 cents per gallon and I plan to stick with for awhile.

E-85 pump has a decal warning not to use additives but I wonder if I need to worry about top cylinder lubrication or the fuel pump.

Any thoughts?
_________________________
2002 Tahoe LS 4x4 5.3L
2005 Cobalt (GF)
1999 Blazer 2-Door 4.3L
1991 S-10 2.8L
1985 Crown Victoria 351 VV
1984 GMC Sierra 3500 3+3 Crew Cab 350

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#3024166 - 06/05/13 10:14 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Doog Offline


Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 3469
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Grebbler

Any thoughts?


Yeah, the price of food will double again if more corn is pushed into the fuel market and out of the feed market. In the long run we will all pay more for this folly. Plus you get worse MPGs anyway.
_________________________
The difference between a beer and your opinion is that I asked for a beer...

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#3024175 - 06/05/13 10:29 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Andy636 Offline


Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 421
Loc: Romania
Dang...cheap gas got even cheaper...I envy you so much guys.

Fact - Around here lots of cars are converted to LPG due to hi gas price and they are running just fine even after 7-8 years, now the LPG compared to your E85 is bone dry and doing nada for top cylinder lubrication.

If your car is a flex fuel one and you get more miles/$ from E85 I would stick with that.

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#3024177 - 06/05/13 10:32 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
DrDusty86 Offline


Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 1491
Loc: TX
who cares, it's E-85! lol what about oil changes, some manufactures recommend short oci when running the E-85 stuff.
Worried about your fuel pump, that vintage GM truck chassis has wonky pumps that would crater rather soon/easily. The BEST advise I have for you regarding your fuel pump is to NEVER let it run below 1/4 tank as the pump is submerged in fuel to keep cool and to change your fuel filter based on the severe change interval. Back pressure can kill a weak/marginal GM pump quickly. You want to keep that filter changed to reduce back pressure. I have changed Many pumps on a 97 Z71 and an 05 Z71 with a 5.3.


Edited by DrDusty86 (06/05/13 10:34 PM)

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#3024180 - 06/05/13 10:34 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
ChevyBadger Offline


Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 549
Loc: Wisconsin
Can you run E85 in a 02 Tahoe? Im assuming your talking about the Tahoe in your sig. I ran it in my truck and got such bad mileage it wasnt worth the cheaper price.


Edited by ChevyBadger (06/05/13 10:37 PM)
_________________________
08 Chevy Silverado QSGB 5w30 AC Delco PF 48
04 Chevy Impala mixture of VWB an Napa syn 5w30 Microguard filter

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#3024184 - 06/05/13 10:40 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
DrDusty86 Offline


Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 1491
Loc: TX
Any fuel with ethonal will drop the milage. It is obvious that the op bought into the hype.

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#3024186 - 06/05/13 10:43 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 799
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
Mileage as in "gallons per mile" mileage?

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#3024189 - 06/05/13 10:45 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
ChevyBadger Offline


Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 549
Loc: Wisconsin
Yea I knew Id get less mileage but it dropped it to about 10. I usually run around 17 with 87 octane regular no lead.
_________________________
08 Chevy Silverado QSGB 5w30 AC Delco PF 48
04 Chevy Impala mixture of VWB an Napa syn 5w30 Microguard filter

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#3024202 - 06/05/13 11:19 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Rolla07 Offline


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 1788
Loc: MTL, CANADA
So less 25% in gas price up front but 30-40% worse mileage?whats the point?
_________________________
2007 Corolla Red Pearl 125,000 miles
50/50 Redline/Pennz Plat 5w30/ Fram TG filter
Next: M1 EP 0w20 & TRD filter


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#3024212 - 06/05/13 11:37 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
zloveraz Offline


Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 856
Loc: Plano, TX
Originally Posted By: Grebbler
I normally avoided this stuff like the plague. I used to travel a lot for work and I usually did my driving at night when open gas stations in the boonies were few and far between. I needed all the range I could get.

Now I stay around home and a nearby BP started carrying E-85 priced 60 cents below the cheap stuff. I gave it a shot and the Tahoe seems to like it.

I just finished a tank so the computer should be calibrated by now so I will start the MPG logs. The current price spread is 90 cents per gallon and I plan to stick with for awhile.

E-85 pump has a decal warning not to use additives but I wonder if I need to worry about top cylinder lubrication or the fuel pump.

Any thoughts?


I'd read this: http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/e85-vs-gasoline-comparison-test.html
_________________________
11 G37S, QSUD, microGreen MG101-7
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#3024240 - 06/06/13 01:19 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Jocephus Offline


Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 219
Loc: AR
I drive the same route 3 times per week on highway...146 miles round trip. I Set the cruise control when I hit I-40 so for probably 130 miles i'm on the cruise control.

My Escalade with 6.2L V8
On 100% gas I get 18.4 mpg
On 10% ethanol I get 15.7 mpg
On E85 I get 13.2 mpg

I only run 100% gas now after doing the test for a month...even wrote my congressman a letter with the full supportive documentation. Heard nothing back.

I still don't understand the governments thinking of how getting less gas mileage saves fuel.
_________________________
14 Chevy Silverado (AC Delco dexos 0w20)
12 Cadillac Escalade (M1)
11 Toyota Corolla (Toyota)
06 Jeep Grand Cherokee (maxlife)


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#3024290 - 06/06/13 03:41 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Rolla07]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7387
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: Rolla07
So less 25% in gas price up front but 30-40% worse mileage?whats the point?
exactly. It actually costs more in the end because of how much more is required to get you around.
I certainly understand,and would use it myself if it the end result saved me money however in this case it costs more per mile than gasoline so at the end of the day you have less money in your pocket.
My hemi for example. I couldn't get an more than 15mpg with regular fuel in the tank but premium(100% gasoline)consistently got me 20 or more mpg. My commute is 30 miles each way on the flatest roads you ever drove and I track every tanks mileage. I very rarely do any city driving in it.
Anyways it cost 10 cents a litre so roughly 40 cents a gallon more which is roughly 10% more per fill up to get 25% better mileage. So in my case the added expense pays off.
If I did nothing but nothing but city miles my mileage dips to 10-12 mpg and never really changed no matter which grade fuel was in it,so the added expense nets no reward so there would really be no point in my case to use premium if all my miles we city miles and I'd just use regular.
Getting 6000 pounds moving is much more difficult than keeping it moving.
So if that is also the case in the op's situation then I understand using e85 however in this case I'd track a few tanks to be sure.
Are we talking about an 02 silverado?
We're they even flex fuel equipped then? If they aren't then there would be absolutely no benefit using it. The ecu will not ad timing nor compensate with enough fuel and there is potentially a risk of engine damage because the ecu will not recognize it being an oxygenated fuel and tuning won't be accurate for that high alcohol content.
If it is a flex fuel vehicle then rock on.
Put tc-w3 in with fuel.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3024294 - 06/06/13 04:15 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Jocephus]
ueberooo Offline


Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 687
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Jocephus
My Escalade with 6.2L V8
On 100% gas I get 18.4 mpg
On 10% ethanol I get 15.7 mpg
On E85 I get 13.2 mpg

I only run 100% gas now after doing the test for a month...even wrote my congressman a letter with the full supportive documentation. Heard nothing back.


One highway, zero city. Just kidding. No, I totally agree with you and hope your congressman listens to the input. I think fuel should be anywhere from E0 to E10. We should only burn stale expiring grain stocks as auto fuel.

Except if it's GMO; then it's safer to burn it than have anyone or anything eat it.
_________________________
--- 1995 Subie Imp EJ18, MT, with ~ 188K miles.... 10w30. I <3 MoS2 + B + Zn ----

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#3024334 - 06/06/13 06:15 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
95busa Offline


Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: Tennessee
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.
_________________________
2005 Ford F250 Super Duty 4x4
2009 Dodge Grand Caravan
2006 Chrysler Pacifica Touring

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#3024420 - 06/06/13 07:55 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Jocephus]
Miller88 Offline


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 6805
Loc: Onondaga County
Originally Posted By: Jocephus


I still don't understand the governments thinking of how getting less gas mileage saves fuel.


They know it doesn't.

However, the agricorps that own a lot of senators and congressmen are pretty influential. They want to sell 100% of their corn and drive the demand up.

Pretty simple.
_________________________
'11 Focus PYB 45K
'00 Cherokee PYB 125K

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#3024812 - 06/06/13 01:56 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Jocephus]
Danno Offline


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 799
Loc: Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jocephus


My Escalade with 6.2L V8
On 100% gas I get 18.4 mpg
On 10% ethanol I get 15.7 mpg
On E85 I get 13.2 mpg



Interesting results.
With 10% ethanol, the math says you should see about a 3% decline in fuel use as the ethanol BTUs are about 70% of gasoline BTUs.
I wonder if they are slipping in more than 10% ethanol?



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#3025194 - 06/06/13 08:55 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Danno]
ueberooo Offline


Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 687
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Danno

With 10% ethanol, the math says you should see about a 3% decline in fuel use as the ethanol BTUs are about 70% of gasoline BTUs.
I wonder if they are slipping in more than 10% ethanol?


Good catch, it looks like they probably are.

That E10 only seems to be doing 85% of the work of the E0 as opposed to the 97% expected. That'd seem to be too large a difference due to measurement error. Unless there was some big headwinds/tailwinds affecting those fuel readings.

Hope you can collect more data and get to the bottom of this.
_________________________
--- 1995 Subie Imp EJ18, MT, with ~ 188K miles.... 10w30. I <3 MoS2 + B + Zn ----

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#3025765 - 06/07/13 11:18 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10841
Loc: The Motor City
Grebbler, let us know what the results are. Not just miles per gallon, but also $ per mile. It should be easy math.

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#3026198 - 06/07/13 05:48 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: 95busa]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.
Most of the money made by ethanol isn't paid to the farmer. He barely gets what it takes to grow the crop. The huge corps are making the money supplying proprietary seed, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, equipment, fuel, financing, etc. And of course the farmers get none of value added profit once the corn leaves the farm. And where do you think the farmer gets all the diesel to run those huge machines. You argument is flawed.


Edited by hatt (06/07/13 05:50 PM)
_________________________
2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

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#3026414 - 06/07/13 09:39 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
ueberooo Offline


Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 687
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.
Most of the money made by ethanol isn't paid to the farmer. He barely gets what it takes to grow the crop. The huge corps are making the money supplying proprietary seed, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, equipment, fuel, financing, etc. And of course the farmers get none of value added profit once the corn leaves the farm. And where do you think the farmer gets all the diesel to run those huge machines. You argument is flawed.

Part of the bit that does go to the farmer pays him for the devaluation of his land as the soil slowly gets depleted of the more beneficial and trace minerals, and in most cases to varying extent, the addition of chemicals into the soil, from herbicides to the fluoride containing pesticides. Then there's the issue of drawing and depleting the groundwater in parts of the country where water isn't abundant.

Depleting our farmers land for some small net energy positive btu gain is not good over the long term and it should definitely no longer be subsidized. Burn stale grain excess stockpiles and leave it at that.

What Shell is doing, nat. gas to liquids refining, makes much more sense. There's a huge amount of gas just being flared to waste in the Bakken fields.
_________________________
--- 1995 Subie Imp EJ18, MT, with ~ 188K miles.... 10w30. I <3 MoS2 + B + Zn ----

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#3028879 - 06/10/13 01:29 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: ueberooo]
volk06 Offline


Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 4298
Loc: .
Originally Posted By: ueberooo
Originally Posted By: Jocephus
My Escalade with 6.2L V8
On 100% gas I get 18.4 mpg
On 10% ethanol I get 15.7 mpg
On E85 I get 13.2 mpg

I only run 100% gas now after doing the test for a month...even wrote my congressman a letter with the full supportive documentation. Heard nothing back.


One highway, zero city. Just kidding. No, I totally agree with you and hope your congressman listens to the input. I think fuel should be anywhere from E0 to E10. We should only burn stale expiring grain stocks as auto fuel.

Except if it's GMO; then it's safer to burn it than have anyone or anything eat it.


So your against using corn for ethanol but then your also against using GMO? Theoretically you'd rather produce less corn which in return would feed less people, than produce as much as possible to satisfy world demand with GMO produced corn? Almost all the corn out there is GMO. There hasn't been a real convincing study proving GMOs can harm anyone or anything.
_________________________
2011 F-150 Ecoboost
2012 Focus S
2001 Taurus

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#3028903 - 06/10/13 01:52 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
DBMaster Offline


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 2184
Loc: Rick Perry World
There is something I don't understand fully. I keep hearing in the news and on documentary programs that many parts of the U.S., especially the corn belt, is going through a major long-term drought. This is driving up food prices across the board. If this is the case why we would be pushing to use even more ethanol? Perhaps this is a way to subsidize crops without really "subsidizing" them.

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#3029844 - 06/11/13 11:08 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: DBMaster]
HerrStig Offline


Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 3009
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
There is something I don't understand fully. I keep hearing in the news and on documentary programs that many parts of the U.S., especially the corn belt, is going through a major long-term drought. This is driving up food prices across the board. If this is the case why we would be pushing to use even more ethanol? Perhaps this is a way to subsidize crops without really "subsidizing" them.
+1

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#3029845 - 06/11/13 11:09 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
HerrStig Offline


Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 3009
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.
Most of the money made by ethanol isn't paid to the farmer. He barely gets what it takes to grow the crop. The huge corps are making the money supplying proprietary seed, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, equipment, fuel, financing, etc. And of course the farmers get none of value added profit once the corn leaves the farm. And where do you think the farmer gets all the diesel to run those huge machines. You argument is flawed.
I'd rather pay a Canadian or Texas oil man.

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#3029850 - 06/11/13 11:12 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: 95busa]
HerrStig Offline


Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 3009
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.
I'd rather pay a Canadian or Texas oil man to drill HERE. ANd pipeline guys to build pipelines that AGRABUSINESS OPPOSES.

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#3030298 - 06/11/13 07:54 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: HerrStig]
volk06 Offline


Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 4298
Loc: .
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.
Most of the money made by ethanol isn't paid to the farmer. He barely gets what it takes to grow the crop. The huge corps are making the money supplying proprietary seed, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, equipment, fuel, financing, etc. And of course the farmers get none of value added profit once the corn leaves the farm. And where do you think the farmer gets all the diesel to run those huge machines. You argument is flawed.
I'd rather pay a Canadian or Texas oil man.

Then you shouldn't be eating the food on your plate on or wear the clothes on your back. A farmer somewhere in the US was mostly involved with everything you use everyday.
_________________________
2011 F-150 Ecoboost
2012 Focus S
2001 Taurus

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#3030383 - 06/11/13 09:29 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: 95busa]
ueberooo Offline


Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 687
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.


My personal preference for my dollar, in this order:

An organic farmer or an amish farmer.

canadian oil man (there's a place for tarsands)

bakken oil man (too much flaring to rank them high)

hajis (they have a family to feed and need money too)

a farmer using any monsanto products



I have some pretty good guesses as to why the US has some of the highest disease rates among developed countries and why it has been skyrocketing over past 10- 15 years. Cure for breast cancer? How about if people ate quality food over junk instead? The US makes some really top technical and niche products, but when it comes to agriculture, it seems to be the race towards cheaply made and rock bottom quality. Even produce is designed to look spectacular, yet you bite into that perfect red tomato and it's anything but. When the focus becomes quality over quantity again I'll change my mind.

Does it surprise you why Monsanto's engineers and scientists demanded no Monsanto foods in their own cafeterias? Or that they coincidentally picked 3 months as their timescale for their "long term" animal study?

2010:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/monsantos-gmo-corn-linked_n_420365.html

2012:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...-modified-foods

http://laist.com/2012/09/19/french_study_finds_massive_tumors_i.php
_________________________
--- 1995 Subie Imp EJ18, MT, with ~ 188K miles.... 10w30. I <3 MoS2 + B + Zn ----

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#3032029 - 06/13/13 09:01 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3791
Loc: KC
I thank you for burning ethanol and increasing my risks for lung diseases. You are so thoughtful.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

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#3036377 - 06/17/13 05:51 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
shovel Offline


Registered: 07/30/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Arizona
I burn E85 in my not-factory-"flex" vehicle whenever possible. Have done so with every vehicle I've owned since E85 became available; modifying as needed to provide adequate fuel flow.

Have fun hatin', haters. B)

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#3038559 - 06/19/13 03:15 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: shovel]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3791
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: shovel
I burn E85 in my not-factory-"flex" vehicle whenever possible. Have done so with every vehicle I've owned since E85 became available; modifying as needed to provide adequate fuel flow.

Have fun hatin', haters. B)


I agree. Human health is overrated.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

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#3039532 - 06/20/13 12:28 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: badtlc]
shovel Offline


Registered: 07/30/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: badtlc

I agree. Human health is overrated.


Right, because one study from Stanford indicates that one aspect of ethanol combustion (CO2 emissions) is less favorable than gasoline, completely ignoring every other aspect of production and combustion.

Another source of CO2 emissions is breathing, so considering I happen to prefer a vegetable/fruit diet (not promoting farmed animals exhaling CO2) and don't have children (not promoting additional humans breathing or necessitating travel/consumption) and live close enough to work that I bike all winter long (for fitness) and don't have one of those ridiculous remote starters on my car (idle for half an hour every day? brilliant!) ... your atmosphere is safe with me. I do eat a lot of bean tacos though, so methane emissions could negate all the harm reduction I do...

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#3047721 - 06/27/13 09:17 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I am always amazed at the myths that continue to get thrown around. Especially the taking food away for making as fuel. That is the biggest line of garbage that has been foisted on the public.

There is no food loss by using corn to produce ethanol! NONE. The only thing that is used from the corn is the starches to produce the sugars which is fermented to alcohol. What is left is very high quality, in demand, distillers grain. It is dried and fed to livestock primarily. It is a high lysine product that also helps prevent intestinal colitis in feed animals. The starches that are used to produce the ethanol would just vacate thru the average cow and end up mostly as stuff you step in when you walk thru a feed lot. I haul several loads of this stuff a month to feed operations. I am pulling one of those loads right now. It is in a more refined state what I have. It is called Biolys, and in 50 lb bags for adding to feed mixtures done at feed mills.

Add to this, that over 80%, well over 80% of the corn grown in this country goes for livestock (cattle, hogs, turkeys, chickens) feed in some form or another. And the Dried Distiller's Grain mentioned above? Well, the Vietnamese, for one, have been negotiating pretty good deals to buy up a lot of it to be shipped to Vietnam for their livestock production. Wow. If we had done this earlier, I would not have had to stump around in the mud over there and have folks take pot shots at me! We could have sold them the DDG!

As for whether ethanol is worse or better after burning, as it affects the atmosphere, I am not up on that one. But the food to fuel thing is just a load of the same stuff that comes out of the south end of a north bound steer.

As a side note on the fuel mileage, true, with the present engine builds we have, you will take approximately a 20-25% hit on fuel mileage with E85. But, if the engines were designed to run on E85 alone, this would not be the case. As multifuel engines, they have to keep things tolerable for regular gasoline. With using only an E85 product, they could bump the compression ratios up considerably and make some other modifications, and the engines would give exceptional performance and get considerably better mpg with E85 than they presently do. So, before one attacks E85 as the being a rotten fuel for mpg, factor in the engine design also. Using primarily ethanol, we could bump compression ratios to levels only experienced in diesel engines now. You do that with a multifuel engine, and you will not like the results. But on a diet of ethanol, it would be a real pleasure to drive. I am presently looking into how a Chevy small block could be reworked to be an E85 only engine and make this all work. I have a flex fuel 5.3L now, but would love to see how this same engine, rebuilt to higher standards for ethanol, would perform.
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Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3047965 - 06/28/13 05:47 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
All the above info brought to you by the Farm Bureau of course.

They have no agenda, they're simply here to do what's right!

C'mon, man, not everyone drinks that corn liquor here...
_________________________
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#3048825 - 06/28/13 08:50 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
If corn ethanol is so great why did so much money get spent on lobbying to get laws passed to REQUIRE it's use? Products that make sense stand on their own and don't need .gov holding guns to the consumers heads.
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#3049996 - 06/30/13 06:17 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 4185
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
My "per mile" cost is roughly the same on E-85.

However, my F150 really performs better on E-85. Ford says it gains 20HP and 60lb/ft torque. I believe it. The low end torque is significantly better.

Smells like a alcohol stove, when first started.

I use it when I can, it's cheap HP in my case.
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#3051418 - 07/01/13 11:43 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: shovel]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3791
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: shovel
Originally Posted By: badtlc

I agree. Human health is overrated.


Right, because one study from Stanford indicates that one aspect of ethanol combustion (CO2 emissions) is less favorable than gasoline, completely ignoring every other aspect of production and combustion.

Another source of CO2 emissions is breathing, so considering I happen to prefer a vegetable/fruit diet (not promoting farmed animals exhaling CO2) and don't have children (not promoting additional humans breathing or necessitating travel/consumption) and live close enough to work that I bike all winter long (for fitness) and don't have one of those ridiculous remote starters on my car (idle for half an hour every day? brilliant!) ... your atmosphere is safe with me. I do eat a lot of bean tacos though, so methane emissions could negate all the harm reduction I do...


Monitoring of Brazil's air quality shows the same.
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#3056878 - 07/06/13 11:29 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: hatt
If corn ethanol is so great why did so much money get spent on lobbying to get laws passed to REQUIRE it's use? Products that make sense stand on their own and don't need .gov holding guns to the consumers heads.


Don't confuse lobbying for it's use as coming from the agriculture community with the agenda the greenies and EPA has going. You have to remember, that since the 70's there has been a push for this kind of stuff primarily because of smog issues in places like Southern Cal, the Colorado front range, and most major cities east of the Mississippi river. To try and conform to EPA guidelines, they mandated MTBE or some such thing as an oxygenate to gasoline. Once they found out that it was a ecological problem, then the move to ethanol being mandated across the nation came into play. All the major cities and heavy populated areas with higher pollution issues, to meet EPA guidelines, have mandated ethanol blends.

Your outrage is placed on the wrong folks. Sure, the ag community wanted some advantages to get things off the ground. And most of the help was in the form of tax credits more than direct subsidies. Tax credits are NOT money transfers. They are only credits for tax purposes. Just like individuals getting tax credits for dependents, mortgage interest, etc. Since the EPA has done all the moving forward on ethanol and biodiesel, there really is no need for any kind of ag subsidies (which have been eliminated for almost 2 years now) or preferential treatment in the tax code. Some tax credits remain, but they are along the line of regular business tax credits that the majority of business' take advantage of in the tax code.

Sometime it is wise to actually study the issue a little before slinging out comments based on false assumptions. I have watched all of this happen so it is a little easier for me to understand it. Those that are just coming to the party seem to have all the knee jerk reactions based on false assumptions.
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#3110362 - 08/30/13 06:56 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: 95busa]
crinkles Offline


Registered: 05/28/07
Posts: 5493
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Would you rather pay a farmer or a haji? Easy question for this guy.


+ for me.

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#3183175 - 11/09/13 05:45 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Miller88]
Archangel Offline


Registered: 10/28/10
Posts: 3
Loc: Illinois USA
The thing with Gas or E85, is that are different fuels and to run best need different engine set ups.
If an engine runs a 9:1 compression ratio using straight gasoline, that same engine could probably go with 11:1 or even 12:1 on E85.
Higher compression makes for a more efficient engine until it starts to knock, and the E85 will handle much more compression.

Bump up the compression and the E85 will get much better mileage.
You just can't go back to Gasoline without either alcohol, or water injection as an antiknock.

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#3184939 - 11/11/13 04:41 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
jhellwig Offline


Registered: 07/01/13
Posts: 381
Loc: Ottumwa, Iowa
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
All the above info brought to you by the Farm Bureau of course.

They have no agenda, they're simply here to do what's right!

C'mon, man, not everyone drinks that corn liquor here...


This is so true simply because the oil industry has our well being as it top priority.
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#3185345 - 11/11/13 11:26 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Jocephus]
FutureDoc Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 548
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Jocephus
I drive the same route 3 times per week on highway...146 miles round trip. I Set the cruise control when I hit I-40 so for probably 130 miles i'm on the cruise control.

My Escalade with 6.2L V8
On 100% gas I get 18.4 mpg
On 10% ethanol I get 15.7 mpg
On E85 I get 13.2 mpg

I only run 100% gas now after doing the test for a month...even wrote my congressman a letter with the full supportive documentation. Heard nothing back.

I still don't understand the governments thinking of how getting less gas mileage saves fuel.


Hummm, no.

Ethanol has about 34% less energy per unit of volume. That being said, an E10 mix should only net about a 3.7%(+/- a small amount) drop in economy... not a 14.6% drop that you listed. So if your 100% Gas fuel economy is that actual economy of the vehicle, then you should expect you MPG to drop to 17.96mph... less than 0.5mpg. Even an full E85 you should get 14.6.

The point of adding ethanol was not to "increase MPG" but rather as a oxygenator to decrease carbon monoxide emissions in a post MTBE era as MTBE was a MAJOR source of groundwater pollution. I already think there is something in the water in same places and adding more MTBE would not be a good thing. The other big reason for ethanol is that is reduces the need for FOREIGN oil. I rather give money to switchgrass/algae farmers (less to corn farmers) than countries in "less stable" areas.

Also, if you complain about mileage, drive a more economical vehicle. Even the old V8 DeVilles could get upper 20/30+mpg highway.
_________________________
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#3226553 - 12/24/13 03:09 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Archangel]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Archangel
The thing with Gas or E85, is that are different fuels and to run best need different engine set ups.
If an engine runs a 9:1 compression ratio using straight gasoline, that same engine could probably go with 11:1 or even 12:1 on E85.
Higher compression makes for a more efficient engine until it starts to knock, and the E85 will handle much more compression.

Bump up the compression and the E85 will get much better mileage.
You just can't go back to Gasoline without either alcohol, or water injection as an antiknock.


That is what I want the OEM's to give us an option for. A E85 "only" engine that has a higher compression ratio and tuned for E85 use only. That would be a killer engine I would have no problem opening my wallet for. I will leave things the way they are in my pickup, but I know the day will come where I will have an engine built for E85 only use.
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#3227821 - 12/25/13 09:43 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
All the above info brought to you by the Farm Bureau of course.

They have no agenda, they're simply here to do what's right!

C'mon, man, not everyone drinks that corn liquor here...


Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.

I counter that you have bought into an agenda that fits your world view, and the facts will not sway you. While the Farm Bureau is not as pure as the wind driven snow, those on the other side of the fence are not saints that have everyone's interest at heart either.
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#3227977 - 12/26/13 05:11 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm


Edited by SteveSRT8 (12/26/13 05:13 AM)
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3228433 - 12/26/13 03:49 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
volk06 Offline


Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 4298
Loc: .
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm


I'm not trying to be an [censored] here but you still did not provide any facts or data to prove tired_trucker wrong, just side stepped his questions.

Theres so many arguments out there that its hard for people to get the real truth. I've looked at both sides, its big oil companies vs ethanol and that's what it really boils down to. Whoever has the most money to lobby, gets what they want... there's no denying that. Big oil still gets millions if not billions of tax breaks/subsidies every year. No matter what we burn in our engines, gasoline, diesel, or ethanol... they're all "bad" but some worse than others.

Once again I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just wanting more information and another view point on it.

We all know how unreliable consumer reports is too, not to mention a lot of that data is out of date from 3 years ago.

Ethanol from corn is not the final answer to eliminating gasoline but is a stepping stone in the advancement of renewable fuels. Algae ethanol and cellulosic ethanol, the next generation ethanol production, looks very promising. There's also reseach into converting form ethanol to isobutanol, which takes less to produce and has a higher energy content than ethanol.
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#3228975 - 12/27/13 08:15 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^I agree with your predictions for the future. But unfortunately for all of us we get to live in the here and now.

Aldehydes are produced when you burn ethanol. Can't sidestep that, as it is a fact. Google it for a comprehensive list of both scientific and alarmist papers. I am sure technology has an answer for us, but the cars right now do not remove this from exhaust. They simply lower it to what is allegedly an acceptable level. IMO it is amazing how the environmental activists are willing to ignore this item to get more ethanol.

I posted the CR article because it was a source often quoted here, not because I am a fan. There are many more available online, some of which are not as kind.

You and I are in absolute agreement that alternative fuels will eventually come online for us. But I also believe that as long as the lobbyists prowl the halls of our Congress there is little hope for the "best" solution and far more impetus for the most profitable one! The BILLIONS in tax credits for FFV's is a very real issue that is directly related to ethanol in fuel, yet it is routinely ignored.

No one anywhere can refute TT's statements above because they are basically true. They simply focus on the positive aspects and ignore the rest...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3234056 - 01/01/14 07:51 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm


Wow, you buy 4K a month of fuel. I'm impressed. Pretty soon you will be up to the 7.5K or more I spend a month in fuel. 21,000 gallons of diesel, and about 2000 gallons of gasoline (or E85 depending on pricing) in a year.

So what if ethanol produces some nasties. So does petroleum. Heck, unless we can get to a hydrogen fueled internal combustion engine like Popular Mechanics did in 1973, anything we burn in an engine is going to produce stuff we all don't like. I learned a long time ago not to lose sleep over to many issues. And since we live in a lot cleaner America than we did in 1970, I think things are going just fine. Ethanol and what it produces is not on the short list of things to worry about. E85, at today's pricing offers me a reasonable fuel at a lower cost per mile than anything else I could put in my pickup's fuel tank.
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#3234351 - 01/02/14 05:31 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.


Ruminants eat grass...where's the grass in either (subsidised) corn, or in distillery leftovers ?

Making cows eat cows and sheep because it made good economic sense didn't make a great deal of sense overall a few years ago, did it ?

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#3234352 - 01/02/14 05:35 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
E85, at today's pricing offers me a reasonable fuel at a lower cost per mile than anything else I could put in my pickup's fuel tank.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/multinationals-carving-up-africa-for-food-20131229-301jk.html

Quote:
Liberia has reportedly signed concessions for nearly one-third of its national territory in recent years. Half of the Democratic Republic of the Congo's agricultural lands are being leased to grow crops, including palm oil for the production of biofuels. Perhaps the largest single venture to date is the ProSAVANA Project in northern Mozambique, where an area roughly the size of Switzerland and Austria combined has been leased by Brazilian and Japanese companies to produce soybeans and maize for export.

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#3234455 - 01/02/14 08:46 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3235354 - 01/02/14 11:05 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Shannow]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.


Ruminants eat grass...where's the grass in either (subsidised) corn, or in distillery leftovers ?

Making cows eat cows and sheep because it made good economic sense didn't make a great deal of sense overall a few years ago, did it ?


How is corn subsidized? The corn price support is based on a floor price of $1.79 a bushel. It hasn't been that low since the early 90's, and as such, there has not been a price support payment made this century. And subsidies to ethanol producers were eliminated in the 2011 budget extension.

And livestock cannot benefit from DDG? Well, let's see.... DDG is highly digestible, It is also been proven to help prevent intestinal colitis in cattle, It is a high protein supplement. Still trying to figure out how that has anything to do with making animals eat animals.

And ruminants do not just eat grass. Come on, you are showing your ignorance. They eat seeds, legumes, and grasses. And guess what? Corn is a grass! Bet ya' forgot that. Yep, corn is a grass and the kernels are no different that the seeds from oats (another grass) that cattle dearly love. Legumes like alfalfa, clover... cattle prefer the seed pods and leaves. Just watch cattle eat and see what they leave behind. All you must have ever seen them eat is sweet grass. They do like that, no doubt.
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#3235364 - 01/02/14 11:12 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...


Ah, you make the classic mistake. Thinking a credit is a subsidy. News flash... subsidies are direct payments made to the subsidized entity. A tax credit is just a credit that reduces the amount of tax that entity has to pay.

But let's go with your roll. Let's eliminate all tax credits! So everyone must give up their mortgage interest deduction, their child care tax credit, their dependent deduction, their earned income tax credit, etc, etc, etc. If business must give them up, then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Every one should have to give them up. Now then we will be talking about everyone "paying their fair share".
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#3235423 - 01/03/14 12:26 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And ruminants do not just eat grass. Come on, you are showing your ignorance. They eat seeds, legumes, and grasses. And guess what? Corn is a grass! Bet ya' forgot that. Yep, corn is a grass and the kernels are no different that the seeds from oats (another grass) that cattle dearly love. Legumes like alfalfa, clover... cattle prefer the seed pods and leaves. Just watch cattle eat and see what they leave behind. All you must have ever seen them eat is sweet grass. They do like that, no doubt.


Man, you are a classic...I guess that I've been learned some today...Guess old Dougie from Dungog in Central NSW was correct feeding stale bread to his cattle (by the truckload from the bakery)...bread is wheat, and wheat is grass, just like distillery slops.

He killed a lot of them before the cows learned that bread is grass...

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#3235499 - 01/03/14 06:15 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
I think TT made a "classic" misdirection play there^^^

And mocking the tax credits still didn't address the economic benefits of them, which are Billions of dollars. The ethanol folks never want to talk about that part, so they just use derision instead...


Edited by SteveSRT8 (01/03/14 06:15 AM)
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3236736 - 01/04/14 04:05 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 9384
Loc: Clovis, CA
What would happen to my 2000 Buick LeSabre if I tried to run E85 in it ?

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#3237529 - 01/04/14 07:04 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
But tax credits are just a reduction is the amount of taxes having to be paid. Sure it benefits the ethanol industry, but they also benefit everyone that has tax credits they can use for their own personal taxes. I was not mocking, I was just stating that it is disingenuous to demand they be eliminated from business, but no one wants to give them up for their own tax situation.

And dried distellers grain cannot be compared to bread someone fed their cattle. DDG has a long, long history as a prime livestock feed supplement. If the livestock industry was experiencing mass die offs, they would discontinue using the stuff. You really need to have a chat with the local ag extension office of your state university. They can really clue you in.
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#3237534 - 01/04/14 07:06 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Merkava_4]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
You and your engine would not like it. Unless an engine is designed to run E85, putting it in is not a good idea. There are ECM tuners available that enable a person to reprogram their vehicle to use E85. Virtually all fuel systems made this century will handle E85. OEM's do not like to stockpile two different kinds of fuel systems. They have been using ethanol ready fuel components almost exclusively since the late 90's.
_________________________
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#3237671 - 01/04/14 09:04 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And dried distellers grain cannot be compared to bread someone fed their cattle.


You are the one that stated that I was ignorant, and the Distillers Grain was essentially grass...

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#3239197 - 01/06/14 09:42 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
javacontour Offline


Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 7628
Loc: Illinois
I would be good with this. Let's get one flat tax rate too. No reduced taxes just because you don't make enough, or have a different flavor of income.

Back to your back and forth smile


Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...


Ah, you make the classic mistake. Thinking a credit is a subsidy. News flash... subsidies are direct payments made to the subsidized entity. A tax credit is just a credit that reduces the amount of tax that entity has to pay.

But let's go with your roll. Let's eliminate all tax credits! So everyone must give up their mortgage interest deduction, their child care tax credit, their dependent deduction, their earned income tax credit, etc, etc, etc. If business must give them up, then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Every one should have to give them up. Now then we will be talking about everyone "paying their fair share".
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#3239307 - 01/06/14 11:23 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: javacontour]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I can deal with a flat tax thing, or better yet, the Fair Tax, though I don't see either as making much headway anytime soon. There are too many lobbyists that push various agendas that like the tax code as it is. I get a lot of little "credits" by doing things a certain way in my business, but I have no problem giving them up if there indeed was some form of general taxation that was realistic and fair.
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Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3239372 - 01/06/14 12:11 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
javacontour Offline


Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 7628
Loc: Illinois
Fair is such an ill defined term. That's why I simply suggest equal percentages.

If the taxman takes the same relative size cut from everyone, I see that as far more "fair" than taking differing percentages from different folks.

But the guy making poverty wages, not paying any taxes probably doesn't want this.

Neither does the guy who has dividend income, paying no payroll taxes and few if any income taxes.
_________________________
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#3258633 - 01/24/14 12:48 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: shovel]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2660
Loc: Upper Midwest
Exactly how are you "modifying as needed to provide adequate fuel flow"?

Originally Posted By: shovel
I burn E85 in my not-factory-"flex" vehicle whenever possible. Have done so with every vehicle I've owned since E85 became available; modifying as needed to provide adequate fuel flow.

Have fun hatin', haters. B)
_________________________
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#3259772 - 01/25/14 03:44 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
datech Offline


Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 454
Loc: us
I stopped at a station that sells a variety of FLEX-FUEL, E-10, 15, 20, 30, and 85. The pump selector indicator I used was blank... I guess the electronic display wasn't working. I didn't realize this station was selling all of these fuel grades until I had pumped in about $15. I stopped there and later I went to the web site for this company to find out about I had put into my car.

They had links that claim fuel economy goes UP with ethanol blends between 20 and 30% ethanol.

I don't know exactly what to believe. I think ethanol helps cool a engine and boosts octane and is safer than MTFB and it definitely props up the price of corn.

I think we should be able to use 100% gas, too, while the EPA is pushing us all into using E-10 all the time whether we like it or not.


Here's the link to the web site I was talking about:


http://www.zarcousa.com/americanfuels/

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#3259996 - 01/25/14 07:30 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
GaleHawkins Offline


Registered: 01/06/14
Posts: 353
Loc: Murray KY USA
If you can live with lower MPG ethanol is OK for Flex labeled engines.

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#3260972 - 01/26/14 08:32 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I can live with lower mpg using E85, because the actual cost per mile is also lower, by about 3 cents a mile less compared to E10 and regular even with their better mpg results. But that is my area of the country. After all, I am surrounded by over 40 ethanol plants and something like 15 biodiesel plants. We are swimming in the stuff, so the price is very good to use E85. Getting ready to pull the trigger on a custom tune for the ECM to fully take advantage of the E85, since that is what I primarily use. Should tighten the spread on mpg numbers between E85 and gasoline.

I am fully behind that people should have the choice to use what they wish in their vehicles. This mandate stuff has gone overboard. I may benefit, but others may not. let the market sort it out and let consumers buy what they wish for motor fuel. I don't care if their decision is based on internet stories about ethanol ruining engines or some other reason. It really doesn't matter. Just let folks buy what they choose, based on what they prefer, what they want to spend their money on, what gives them the best value, what makes them sleep well at night. Simple. Government meddling always messes things up for a lot of folks.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3261232 - 01/27/14 05:48 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
That last line is a gem.


Centralized planning is why we have STATES.
_________________________
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J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
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#3263543 - 01/29/14 08:55 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Do we have states? I thought they were nothing more than territories anymore. After all, while there is the appearance of statehood, if one looks closely, they can see the puppet strings leading to D.C. The 10th Ammendment is all but a complete joke. But that makes sense. The Constitution is really nothing more to idealize than a used kotex to a wide amount of politicians and citizens. This is why you occasionally hear calls for a Consitutional Convention to throw out the old one and start again.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3263956 - 01/29/14 03:24 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
We certainly don't need a new Constitution IMO.

Just need to pay attention to the one we have!
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3265073 - 01/30/14 05:06 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Simple solution for you guys complaining about the EPA. Move to China. They have no such restrictive rules and regs there.

Personally I like breathing clean air.
_________________________
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#3265566 - 01/31/14 06:16 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: turtlevette]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Simple solution for you guys complaining about the EPA. Move to China. They have no such restrictive rules and regs there.

Personally I like breathing clean air.


Got any proof that they have a lack of regulation on pollution ?

They are building awfully clean power stations at a prodigious rate for a country with no controls.

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#3265570 - 01/31/14 06:25 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
They might be now, but remember when they had the summer olympics not all that long ago? They had to shut down factories and power plants to have enough clean air for the athletes. Even the commies realize once in a while they have to do something to clean up their act. I think the olympics gave them a wake up call that they needed to start doing a little better.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3265575 - 01/31/14 06:33 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
No, not "are there any smoggy days in LA these days ?", but is there proof that there is no environmental regulation in China.

That was the assertion...

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#3266398 - 01/31/14 11:01 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Shannow]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 685
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Simple solution for you guys complaining about the EPA. Move to China. They have no such restrictive rules and regs there.

Personally I like breathing clean air.


Got any proof that they have a lack of regulation on pollution ?

They are building awfully clean power stations at a prodigious rate for a country with no controls.


I'll leave it to you to prove me wrong. But none of this belongs in the thread. It should be a technical discussion on the performance of E85 but anytime ethanol is mentioned it turns into a political discussion. Why?

Its got oil men scared to death. That's why.
_________________________
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#3266426 - 01/31/14 11:56 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: turtlevette]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I'll leave it to you to prove me wrong. But none of this belongs in the thread. It should be a technical discussion on the performance of E85 but anytime ethanol is mentioned it turns into a political discussion. Why?


Because YOU brought the EPA and China into the thread...why did you do that ?

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#3266428 - 02/01/14 12:07 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Shannow]
TrevorS Offline


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 1281
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Simple solution for you guys complaining about the EPA. Move to China. They have no such restrictive rules and regs there.

Personally I like breathing clean air.


Got any proof that they have a lack of regulation on pollution ?

They are building awfully clean power stations at a prodigious rate for a country with no controls.


China has gone green but that's because their pollution problem is increasing. They had no choice.

Fortunately for them, the government can easily implement the change in direction.

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#3266484 - 02/01/14 04:16 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
Central planning has huge weaknesses, and China's highly volatile leadership makes a lot of good decisions and bad ones.

It may be a bit late to proclaim them some kind of 'green' ideal, their problems are deep and wide. But when you have a completely centralized Government with no balance or dissent it is easy to do what you want anytime, anywhere.

"Get those college kids out of that square NOW!"
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3266547 - 02/01/14 07:22 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It may be a bit late to proclaim them some kind of 'green' ideal



never have...

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#3266638 - 02/01/14 09:24 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^Never say never...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3399480 - 06/17/14 03:58 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2778
Loc: usa
I'm pretty sure that it has been said before, but let me debunk some of this:
1) Who exactly will be starving without corn to eat?
Ethanol is made from sugar, in the case of corn from the fructose as in high-fructose corn syrup - yes, the nasty stuff that you want to avoid in a healthy diet. And there exactly lies my point.

High-fructose corn syrup has been, or is in the process of being, replaced with alternatives like Splenda or Stevia in things like candy, sweets and sodas. Because it's better for your health, and you know it.

Noone wants to take your sugar candy away of course, nor does anyone want to take away your corn on a cob. But all that land that has been used for the production of high-fructose corn syrup has to be used somehow: Like making Ethanol for cars, as an example.

Secondly, making Ethanol from sugar (or sugar containing things such as corn mash) is known as the "first-generation Ethanol production process". The second-generation process uses cellulose, which means that you can have your corn cob, but it will still be possible to turn the leave-y stuff and the stems around it into Ethanol. The third-generation process uses algae that turn CO2, air and water from the atmosphere into Ethanol. Personally, I don't think that this will take away your Nagi roll Sushi, either. And if it does, just eat California roll instead. And as you may know: Dino oil are compressed algae, then seasoned for millions of years. This takes the millions of years out of the equation.

2) Oil is a frickin' ending resource
Pennsylvania and Texas crude (as well as Brent and Saudi crude, for that matter) are getting less and less - do you really want to burn that stuff in your engine in the form of gasoline or diesel, or do you want to keep those 3K OCIs going?

Long story short: Make yourself accustomed to the idea that Ethanol content in gasoline, as well as Biodiesel will increase rather than decrease over time. And at some point (probably beyond our lifetime), even engine oil will be made from vegetable oil. Because dino oil doesn't grow on trees.

Lastly, but not leastly:
3) Does my car use 33% more Ethanol than gasoline?
Nope. Seriously.

It is true that in theory the energy content of Ethanol is 33% less than gasoline. But here's the kicker: Ethanol has an octane rating of >96.

For example, take a theoretical, naturally aspired 4-cylinder flex engine of 1.2L displacement with 16 valves, a compression ratio somewhere at 11:1 and 100HP on both gasoline and Ethanol.

The ignition system will tune itself according to the fuel in the tank, and if the engine would produce 100HP on gasoline, it would produce roughly 110HP on Ethanol.

But, like most production cars, it has the same 100HP rating on both fuels. Where did the 10HP go? The engine gets leaned down.

As you may know, leaning down an engine will increase the combustion temperature. But atomizing fuel cools the air-fuel mixture down, and as more volume of Ethanol is injected than gasoline, those effects will cancel each other and you can lean the engine down to it's original rating of 100HP.

That's why on a properly tuned flex vehicle with a naturally aspired engine the real-world difference between E5 and E85 is not ±33%, but ±10-15%. On a turbo-equipped engine, it may as well be ±1-5% (as an all-Ethanol engine would not have a compression ratio of 11:1, but something in the ball park of 14:1, which can be accomplished by higher boost pressure).

I know that the whole Ethanol thing is a little hard to comprehend, but I hope that you enjoyed reading this little write up. Ethanol as a fuel is definitively an interesting subject that should be approached with an open mind. Whatever makes this world the best of all places for our children, amirite?


Edited by tommygunn (06/17/14 03:59 AM)

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#3399482 - 06/17/14 04:06 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
A tad dripping with condescension...but:
* if you honestly think that there's enough land to offset/replace oil, even for the US, with perpetual growth in consumption, I've got a bridge to sell you.
* some of the figures that you quote defy science, although the directions of some of the arguments are in the correct direction, the conclusions are off.
* Our children will be competing with China and India for quality of life, not just food, and people (not your claim) who state that the third world will be happy energy slaves to the west have rocks in their head.

Won'y touch the HFCS straw.

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#3399909 - 06/17/14 03:51 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2778
Loc: usa
Algae grow in water, not on land. And that's a huge resource.

Science is at the point of injecting Ethanol directly into the cylinders of highly-turbo charged engines to rival the efficiency of diesel engines: http://web.mit.edu/erc/spotlights/small_engine.html

Like any other engine, you could run this one completely on Ethanol as well, of course.

I'm just in for engine technology, so I couldn't really tell you anything about societal issues and what we're competing or collaborating on, nor with whom, really. But Algae that turn CO2 into Ethanol somewhere in the ocean don't seem to harm anyone for that matter. And for those kind of issues, electric cars powered by wind and water generated energy seem more appropriate anyways.


Edited by tommygunn (06/17/14 03:57 PM)

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#3399934 - 06/17/14 04:25 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: tommygunn]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2660
Loc: Upper Midwest
Of course, the problem is that algae don't turn CO2 into ethanol. Significant resources and energy are required to subsequently get to ethanol.

Also, does the right type of algae grow in salt water?

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Algae grow in water, not on land. And that's a huge resource.

I'm just in for engine technology, so I couldn't really tell you anything about societal issues and what we're competing or collaborating on, nor with whom, really. But Algae that turn CO2 into Ethanol somewhere in the ocean don't seem to harm anyone for that matter. And for those kind of issues, electric cars powered by wind and water generated energy seem more appropriate anyways.
_________________________
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#3400172 - 06/17/14 10:08 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
I like to add a little ground unicorn horn to my corn ethanol. 127% more magic in every tank.
_________________________
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#3400324 - 06/18/14 06:05 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: hatt
I like to add a little ground unicorn horn to my corn ethanol. 127% more magic in every tank.


Since unicorns are so hard to find I have simply been grinding up possum teeth...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3401725 - 06/19/14 06:53 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: kschachn]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2778
Loc: usa
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Of course, the problem is that algae don't turn CO2 into ethanol. Significant resources and energy are required to subsequently get to ethanol.

Also, does the right type of algae grow in salt water?



That would be a natural bloom of the right blue-green algae somewhere around Fiji.

Quote:
Researchers from a company called Algenol have cultured genetically modified cyanobacteria (read: blue-green algae) in sea water inside a clear plastic enclosure so that they first make sugar (pyruvate) from CO2 and the water via photosynthesis. Then, the bacteria secrete ethanol from the cell into the salt water. As the day progresses, and the solar radiation intensifies, ethanol concentrations build up and the ethanol itself evaporates onto the roof of the enclosure. As the sun recedes, evaporated ethanol and water condenses into droplets, which run along the plastic walls and into ethanol collectors, from where it is extracted from the enclosure with the water and ethanol separated outside the enclosure. As of March 2013, Algenol was claiming to have tested its technology in Florida and to have achieved yields of 9,000 US gallons per acre per year. This could potentially meet US demands for ethanol in gasoline in 2025, assuming an E30 blend, from an area of around half the size of California’s San Bernardino County, requiring less than one tenth of the area than ethanol from other biomass, such as corn, and only very limited amounts of fresh water.


I also learnt something new today: A) There is already vegetable-based engine oil from Renewable Lubricants (and even threads about it on BITOG) and B) If you bake those algae in a reactor, you'll obtain something with the same properties as crude-based base oil: http://www.icis.com/resources/news/2014/...tinue-progress/

Quote:
Third, there are novel base oils obtained from algae that can be produced in industrial reactors and have properties matching those of petroleum and synthetic base oils.


Those Algae are even more interesting than corn-based Ethanol. smile


Edited by tommygunn (06/19/14 06:57 PM)

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#3401922 - 06/20/14 12:20 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
I love algae as an idea, and think that places where CO2 is rich, and there's low grade waste heat aplenty would be the ideal places for them to grow well...algae does, however, have a couple of other needs. Firstly they need fertiliser, like most plants

Like other plants, they need sunlight

As they grow, the soup becomes murky, and sun doesn't filter in (like Algae in a lake, then they stop photsynthesising)...second, there's only 1.4KW odd hits the surface of the land, which means at 100% conversion efficiency, a square yard can make the equivalent of about half a pint of gas...at 100%. Plants aren't that good

Algae is great, should be a part of the solution, but unfortunately proponents of technologies that want to attract investors and their money oversell the benefits of everything, algae, solar freakin' roads, and fracking included

Coal seam methane produces are investigating algae in the brine ponds to remove nutrients and make another byproduct...a win/win

It's part of the solution, and the solution will be made up of parts

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#3403171 - 06/21/14 05:23 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
And I have not quite bought the oil is a finite resource idea that seems to get floated frequently. 30 years ago, there was a hue and cry that we would run out of oil shortly after the turn of the century. We have more oil than ever before. The mathematics doesn't quite work that oil came primarily from dinosaurs. There is a logical idea that has gained ground, albeit slowly, that oil is just a carbon based outcome of internal earth processes. Oil is continually being "made" in the earth's interior. We just have to locate where it is pocketing up under ground. And we seem to find new areas all the time, even as the more traditional oil locations are slowing down.

Ethanol can never totally replace oil based fuel, but that is really a "who cares" idea. it does have some advantages, especially when the engine is designed around ethanol as the primary fuel and not an afterthought like the flex fuel engines we have now.

I want it all... ethanol, NG, propane, butanol, gasoline, diesel, etc, etc etc. Those that live in areas where ethanol is produced, ethanol specific engines would be the optimal choice. Those that live in areas where gas is more cost effective, then choose gas engines. Those that got access to numerous outlets of NG, then have at it. Butanol can be moved thru traditional pipelines whereas ethanol can't. This should not be a one thing or the other type of thing, We should be able to take advantage of all potential fuels. Drill it, pump it, brew it, make it out of trash and sewage, wring it out of algae, whatever. More fuel of all kinds for everyone.
_________________________
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#3404440 - 06/23/14 10:21 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2778
Loc: usa
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I want it all... ethanol, NG, propane, butanol, gasoline, diesel, etc, etc etc. Those that live in areas where ethanol is produced, ethanol specific engines would be the optimal choice. Those that live in areas where gas is more cost effective, then choose gas engines. Those that got access to numerous outlets of NG, then have at it. Butanol can be moved thru traditional pipelines whereas ethanol can't. This should not be a one thing or the other type of thing, We should be able to take advantage of all potential fuels. Drill it, pump it, brew it, make it out of trash and sewage, wring it out of algae, whatever. More fuel of all kinds for everyone.


If you look at Brazil: That's exactly what's happening already.

Owner's of Flex cars down there have a nifty little table that has the gasoline price on one side and E100 price plus 33% on the other. If ethanol is scarce and the price rises or gas prices drop, they fill their tank with gasoline. If it's harvest season for sugar cane and ethanol is abundant and inexpensive, they fill their tank with ethanol. That's the great thing about flex cars: They take both without a problem whatsoever. Triflex cars even take Russian natural gas on top of that.

We have something similar than that table, too, when E85 changes to E70 during the winter. It's not only more convenient because someone blends the least expensive mix for us, but also serves the purpose of better cold starting when the weather gets colder.

---
In my "condescension dripping" post above, I've also forgotten another thing:

4) But I heard that E85 deteriorates hoses in my fuel system.

This is something that comes via Brazil to us. This holds somewhat true for E100 with hydrous ethanol, meaning that it contains approximately 4% water, and water will rust metals and aluminum. Our E10 and E85 are however made from water-free, anhydrous ethanol. As your gas tank is a sealed system that does not allow (moist) air in, it will also stay anhydrous while in your vehicle and not cause oxidation of the intake manifold and metal tubing.

If you look at any car that was manufactured after 2000, you will see that A) they don't have any metal tubing or connectors at all but lines made from hard plastic, and B) that the intake manifold is also made from black plastic instead of metal. As a general rule of thumb you can also assume that if the intake manifold is made from plastic, your car was designed with ethanol in mind and is guaranteed to never suffer from any deterioration in the fuel system whatsoever. Fuel tanks have also been made from plastic since at least 1990 for safety reasons and will not deteriorate from ethanol, either.

It also removes removes deposits in the area of the inlet manifold and inlet valves. A car on E85 does not need injection cleaner, because E85 is itself an injection cleaner.

5) It breaks my fuel pump, does it not?
Again, maybe on E100. But E85 contains enough gasoline to properly lubricate older fuel pumps, and if your car has the black plastic inlet manifold, it will also have a PTFE/Teflon bearing in the fuel pump that doesn't need lubrication whatsoever.

---

It would be so convenient if more cars had those downsized, turbo-charged engines with a proper tune that runs on anything from straight gasoline to E85 while maximizing fuel economy for a given HP and torque output, and gas stations that would just blend a mix that gives you the most miles per dollar rather than four nozzles with E5, E10, E22 and E85. Yeah, that would be great.


Edited by tommygunn (06/23/14 10:34 AM)

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#3404472 - 06/23/14 11:05 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And I have not quite bought the oil is a finite resource idea that seems to get floated frequently. 30 years ago, there was a hue and cry that we would run out of oil shortly after the turn of the century. We have more oil than ever before. The mathematics doesn't quite work that oil came primarily from dinosaurs. There is a logical idea that has gained ground, albeit slowly, that oil is just a carbon based outcome of internal earth processes. Oil is continually being "made" in the earth's interior. We just have to locate where it is pocketing up under ground. And we seem to find new areas all the time, even as the more traditional oil locations are slowing down.
I don't think there's a more closed minded group than "scientists." Once someone proposes a theory almost all latch on with all their might. Maybe because they're all on a similar payroll.
_________________________
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#3404855 - 06/23/14 06:58 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11644
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: hatt
Once someone proposes a theory almost all latch on with all their might.

Actually, they all try to discredit each other, and that's because they're competing for the same research dollars and the same space on the pages of journals. wink
_________________________
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
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#3405346 - 06/24/14 09:24 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Garak]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Garak

Actually, they all try to discredit each other, and that's because they're competing for the same research dollars and the same space on the pages of journals. wink

The research dollars are what make them closed minded. They're being funded to prove what the institution funding them wants proven. In many/most cases that's proving what's trendy at the moment. Of course you always have a few rouges actually doing unbiased research. Those are the important scientists.
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#3405379 - 06/24/14 09:57 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: hatt
Of course you always have a few rouges actually doing unbiased research. Those are the important scientists.


Ilike that quote...

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#3405382 - 06/24/14 10:00 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
surfstar Offline


Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4387
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
We've got some real 'scientists' on this board, alright duh
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#3410234 - 06/29/14 06:18 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2778
Loc: usa
I had nothing better to do and did some experimentation for you (and for me, too, of course).

My car has, according to the manual, the following consumption figures:

City: 24MPG
H/W: 43.5MPG
Combined: 33.5MPG

With my best "hypermiling skills", I always got around 37.5MPG-ish in the city on E5, and also something around that on E10.

The engine does not have an anti-knock sensor to increase the performance on higher octane fuel, which would further improve the mileage on E85.

I had one of these E85 conversion boxes (A FlexiTune AutoX4 from Sweden, as they were about the first ones money could buy and reasonably priced a couple of years ago) laying around somewhere, and while the new ones come with a harness that just clips onto the fuel injectors in like a minute, for mine you have to build your own harness. Luckily, the fuel injectors had a central plug that feeds all the injectors and has +12V on it, so two Superseal plugs and a ground strip did the job.

For completeness' sake: It was in fixed E50-E85 mode, the lambda probe was not connected to give a result similar to the newer boxes that don't even bother with adapting to the actual air/fuel ratio for one reason or another.

I drove the car completely empty and filled it up with E85, drove it again until the reserve light went on solid, then I drove to the gas station and added 5.5 gallons of E85. I proceeded to drive normally until the light came on solid again, at which point odometer read 170.8 miles.

170.8mi/5.5gal = 31.05MPG.

Compared to gasoline, the mileage decrease by 6.45MPG or 17.2%, and that's a conservative figure as I drove with the reserve light on about 10mi to the gas station.

As far as driving, idle and cold start go: You couldn't tell a difference. The engine does however have noticeably more bottom end torque, likely because of an increased quality of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder at low revs due to longer injection intervals (and hence the 17% instead of 30% decrease in mileage).

It does work fine, and the mystical 33% figure is, at least for this particular car, [censored]. To the contrary, I even feel that I could match the 33.5MPG figure from the manual with some effort.

This must be the most scientific test, like, ever. Come on, it's the Internets.


Edited by tommygunn (06/29/14 06:21 PM)

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#3411490 - 07/01/14 09:06 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2778
Loc: usa
I almost forgot the most important:

The car requires "unleaded with at least 91 AKI (Premium)".

Real-world prices, for good measure, are: >$4.50 for a gallon of regular in LA, $2.39 for a gallon of E85 in Michigan. If you forget about the Midwest with their outrageously cheap E85 for a moment and take California as an example, then the current average gas prices are:

$4.19 for regular
$4.30 for premium

while the gallon of E85 goes for $3.50, which gives an adjusted price of $3.50*1.17 = $4.095 for E85.

Yada, yada, yada: 2.27% more miles for every dollar spend on fuel, compared to regular. 4.78% compared to premium. On a random, [censored] car that didn't even came out of the factory as a flex vehicle (or maybe even because of it). And based on numbers for a place where the spread between E85 and gas prices is the worst-case scenario in the entire country.

Some places in the Midwest have a price spread that would give an increase in MP$ of over 50%, to give you an idea of how fair my calculation is.

Long story short: E85 can be worth it economically outside of the Midwest in a car with a naturally-aspired engine, too. And the car has more power, and is more fun to drive, as well. What else could you possibly ask for, +30HP and +30ft.lbs when on E85? Saab did it with the Biopower engines.


Edited by tommygunn (07/01/14 09:18 AM)

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#3417431 - 07/07/14 06:18 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
E85 produces less NOx, less Sulphur, less acid, less soot, doesn't keep dilution (full evaporation at 78 C not 150 as gas). The piston rings stay cleaner for hundres of thousands of miles (no need of MMO or seafoams)... The engine oil doesn't sludge. So, if you like a cleaner engine and environment plus fossil fuel savings, E85 is the way to go. Any car 2008 and and newer with yellow fuel cap doesn't need parts convertion, even though isn't an original factory FFV.
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#3418333 - 07/08/14 02:09 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Rosetta]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
E85 produces less NOx, less Sulphur, less acid, less soot, doesn't keep dilution (full evaporation at 78 C not 150 as gas). The piston rings stay cleaner for hundres of thousands of miles (no need of MMO or seafoams)... The engine oil doesn't sludge. So, if you like a cleaner engine and environment plus fossil fuel savings, E85 is the way to go. Any car 2008 and and newer with yellow fuel cap doesn't need parts convertion, even though isn't an original factory FFV.

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/s...o-gasoline.html http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/s...o-gasoline.html
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#3418381 - 07/08/14 02:44 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
E85 produces less NOx, less Sulphur, less acid, less soot, doesn't keep dilution (full evaporation at 78 C not 150 as gas). The piston rings stay cleaner for hundres of thousands of miles (no need of MMO or seafoams)... The engine oil doesn't sludge. So, if you like a cleaner engine and environment plus fossil fuel savings, E85 is the way to go. Any car 2008 and and newer with yellow fuel cap doesn't need parts convertion, even though isn't an original factory FFV.

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/s...o-gasoline.html http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/s...o-gasoline.html


There's lots more, just Google.

The kool aid drinkers will tell you that it only gives off butterflies and moonbeams, but as usual the facts are a bit less rosy...
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#3418960 - 07/08/14 10:30 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
Yes, you broght a pretty good article SRT8! Even though that's a Sazonal situation leaded by fuel prices. No doubt that high use of ethanol makes the car cleaner and the city a better place.
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#3419245 - 07/09/14 07:51 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
At least Brazil's sugarcane ethanol makes sense. Energy produced to energy used is over 8/1. Compared to corn's 1.3ish/1.
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#3420339 - 07/10/14 05:21 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: hatt
At least Brazil's sugarcane ethanol makes sense. Energy produced to energy used is over 8/1. Compared to corn's 1.3ish/1.


Too bad I can't make any sense of their posts!


Edited by SteveSRT8 (07/10/14 05:21 AM)
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#3422496 - 07/12/14 08:53 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
Ethanol from Sugarcane makes sense, that's right!

Our post don't. Really?
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#3422503 - 07/12/14 08:59 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
DBMaster Offline


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 2184
Loc: Rick Perry World
Brazil's sugarcane is better put to use making cachaca!

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#3423038 - 07/12/14 08:52 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
Spicy water ... the one that birds don't drink ... pinga!
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#3424975 - 07/14/14 09:26 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I mentioned elsewhere that GM was working on a 3.2L EBDI engine using E85 that equaled the performance of the Duramax Diesel. Well, Cummins has been at it also. They have been testing a 2.8L inline 4 cylinder using E85. 250 hp and 450 lb torque. seems like the industry is moving in the same direction.

http://www.truckinginfo.com/channel/equi...mmins-says.aspx
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#3425476 - 07/15/14 12:30 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
No mention of fuel mileage and costs. Clearly must be more expensive than diesel. Taxpayers going to subsidize this project as well?
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#3426217 - 07/16/14 07:00 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Well, if you read the article, you would see who was funding the project. It was pretty open about that in the article. But both the Cummins 2.8L project and the GM 3.2L project have both yielded better mpg numbers at the same power level as comparable diesel varieties. And then there is the reduced amount of emissions equipment due to no need for SCR or DPF with E85 engines. And in GM's case, they clearly state a 400 lb net weight savings using the 3.2L EBDI E85 fueled engine than the Duramax diesel in the 3500HD pickup.

And everything gets subsidized by the tax payers eventually. Either government is the one who gives it or any number of companies provide funding, but they got that funding money from the buyers of their goods and services. Just like NASCAR, the US Olympic team, and hundreds of other entities get funding for stuff. Just look at Mobil Oil... they are a major funding source for NASCAR and trucking shows including top name entertainment at commercial truck jamborees, shows, and such. Anyone who buys a quart of Mobil is paying for that. Since roughly 48% of Americans had no Federal Income Tax last year, the government sourcing for any subsidies, if there were any, are not being laid on every potential tax payer out here.

Still a little confused about something though.... ethanol made from sugar from sugar cane is better than ethanol made from sugar from corn. And it is the sugars and starches from the corn that go into making ethanol. But sugar cane has, what, for additional products that can be used for food and other products? Whereas corn has a laundry list of additional products that are made from the same kernel of corn that went into producing ethanol. So the confusion is in how is making ethanol from corn such a bad thing than making it from any other sugar source? Sure, the amount of sugar in sugar cane is higher than corn, but what other major food and industrial products are made from sugar cane?

So on a sugar for sugar level, yes, sugar cane is more efficient for making ethanol. But other than that, it is just sugar. No other real major food products. Corn used for ethanol on the other hand, while less of a sugar source, is also a major source of high and low protein gluten, corn oil, high fructose corn syrup, and other products. So to equate cane sugar ethanol production with corn ethanol production is not a one for one, pound per pound, kind of thing. Now, if only ethanol was made or used from the corn going into ethanol production, then one might be able to make a viable case to the inefficiency of corn ethanol.
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#3428700 - 07/18/14 07:30 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
It's not about corn or sugar products. It's about energy. For corn if you use 1 unit of energy you get out 1.X(last number I saw was 1.3) units of energy. While sugar gets you 8+ with that unit of energy. I'm sure sugar ethanol production has usable byproducts just like corn. Corn ethanol was sold as a way to increase energy. Something it's clearly not very good at doing considering the land, fertilizers, chemicals, impact on food supply, etc it take to produce.


Edited by hatt (07/18/14 07:33 PM)
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#3428982 - 07/19/14 03:33 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
TT, so you can get HFCS out of the corn AFTER you've made ethanol out of it...that's what you're saying, but I would have thought that the sugars were all consumed in making the ethanol in the first place.

A little bt of rudimentary research and you would know:
* that Bagasse, the stalk material left over produces about 3% of Brazil's electricity
* ever heard of a product called mollasses ?...someone as versed in ag as yourself would know of it's uses in animal feed and supplementation.

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#3441586 - 07/31/14 11:21 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: hatt
It's not about corn or sugar products. It's about energy. For corn if you use 1 unit of energy you get out 1.X(last number I saw was 1.3) units of energy. While sugar gets you 8+ with that unit of energy. I'm sure sugar ethanol production has usable byproducts just like corn. Corn ethanol was sold as a way to increase energy. Something it's clearly not very good at doing considering the land, fertilizers, chemicals, impact on food supply, etc it take to produce.


You would be correct on all the associated costs of production, if all we were using the corn for was ethanol. It would be a pretty poor trade off. But most of the corn that is targeted toward ethanol production is used for other purposes as well. If we break down the the percentages, the costs of corn production is balanced in regards to ethanol. And when you run the percentages on a net use basis, ethanol production only uses about a net 17.5 percent of the total corn production. When you factor out the 20% of corn production that goes toward human consumption, and you factor that 40% of the remaining 80% of the crop is targeted toward ethanol, and of that 40%, 35% of it is returned to feed supplements and other uses. In the end, it is roughly 18% of the entire corn crop that gets used for ethanol. When you divide the corn production costs out on this percentage, ethanol is really not the evil ogre it is made out to be regarding fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides, and fuel costs to produce.

And land use for corn production is not needed as much as one would think. Average corn yields on a per acre basis are multitudes above what they were just a decade ago. A farmer in Illinois last year, set the new all time record for average corn yield per acre... over 450 bushels per acre average. We are able to produce much more corn, on the same land. Hybrids are wonderful things sometimes. And most farmers do it while using less intensive farming techniques like low till and no till farming. Farmers around me have been on no till farming methods for years, cutting massive waste, both fuel and environmental, in crop production.

The farming dynamics are changing so rapidly, that a year can make a monumental difference. Unfortunately, most articles and other stuff written about this for the general populace is outdated to say the least.
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#3441676 - 07/31/14 12:44 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
How much corn we're using for this and that has no bearing on the energy conversion rate. We aren't getting much energy out of the equation.
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#3442572 - 08/01/14 08:10 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Cows eat grass efficiently...growing corn on pasture, then messing with it, then feeding it to cows to get a worse health (cow and human) result in protein and fatty acid profile only gives the greenies ammunition against eating meat.

Yes, Cows get less flatulence eating distillers grains than corn...but they shouldn't be eating grain in the first place.

Using animal feed to justify ethanol is plain farcical.

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#3442609 - 08/01/14 09:03 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11644
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Using animal feed to justify ethanol is plain farcical.

Remember, though, Shannow, that some grain pretty much has to be used as animal feed of some sort since, depending on weather and growing conditions, grain may only grade as a feed grade, rather than human food grade. We get that here on occasion, although it's not a huge problem. Of course, there's virtually no corn grown in this province. If cattle are being fed grain (in conjunction with ethanol production or not), it's most likely to be wheat or barley in feed grades.
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#3442632 - 08/01/14 09:24 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1111
Loc: Florida
Chickens and pigs can eat grain without a problem. For most of a cow's life they're grass fed. They only see grain on the feedlots for a few months between the ranch and plastic wrap.
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#3443177 - 08/01/14 06:44 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Couple of weeks on grain, and the entire lifetime of fatty acid profiles on grass (good, Omega 3s etc.) is screwed up in favor of 6s ...which makes bad human food. Similarly, the fact that chicken and pigs CAN eat grain, they end up poor human food compared to a non grain diet.

It's got to be obvious, given that we've evolved alongside these anuimals, and only with the advent of subsidised markets grain feeding is a modern, ill conceived (but highly profitable) idea...provides fodder to animal libbers, and is being used to justify ethanol.

Traditional means of cold weather feed like silage produce a nutritionally better product...gets forced out as being too expensive when wooed by the grain lobby (*)

Milk from (almost exclusively) grain fed cattle is an abomination compared to grass.

(*) former workmate left to take over family farm, started using the farm to produce hay/silage, and computerised management systems for growth etc. ... flown around the country, wined and dined by grain lobby, who convinced him to convert to the more "predictable" growth with intensive grain feeding (not finishing), and grass/silage became a supplementary feed...then changed the price structure such that he needed the high intensity overproduction, and could never get back to "farming" rather than feedlotting.

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#3443186 - 08/01/14 06:55 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11644
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
It's got to be obvious, given that we've evolved alongside these anuimals, and only with the advent of subsidised markets grain feeding is a modern, ill conceived (but highly profitable) idea...provides fodder to animal libbers, and is being used to justify ethanol.

Here, there isn't the subsidy issue. Heck, there isn't even a lot of grain fed cattle. Some are dealt with that way, in conjunction with the ethanol processes or not. And, of course, the ethanol process can occur here, too, without the involvement of cattle.

In the end, something has to be done with feed grain, and given its low price, there aren't a lot of money making options for the farming industry.
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
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#3443204 - 08/01/14 07:18 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Oh, I agree that the production of "food" is the race to the bottom to keep a pound of beef on the plate for everyone every day and a gallon of milk in the fridge.

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#3443485 - 08/02/14 12:28 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Let's see.... what wildlife doesn't eat grain as a natural component of their diet? Deer, Pheasants, quail, squirrels, rabbits, you name it. Grain is not just a farming thing, all grasses and legumes make grain, which is just seeds. And animals have eaten it since the dawn of time. So feeding grain (seeds) to cattle, chickens, turkeys, swine, etc is not natural and shouldn't be done? Somehow, they never got the memo.

You ought to see the number of critters and birds the make pilgrimages to the grain bin between my house and the barn after we put in or remove grain. There is always some spillage, and it sure attracts the critters from rabbits to possums to raccoons at night (occasionally a brave deer) and birds all day long. They didn't get the grain isn't natural and they shouldn't eat it memo either.
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#3443502 - 08/02/14 12:53 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
Tiredtrucker rolls out the "grain is grass" barrow again...c'mon, even you can't buy that...

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#3446964 - 08/05/14 04:45 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
One other of the major advantages of sugar cane ethanol, is that the biomass byproducts (bagasso) is what feed the powerplant, not other fuel/electricity. So all the substance are used up to make the alcohol. That keeps cost down, also making a more efficient production.
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#3452389 - 08/11/14 12:33 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
One thing that gets missed in the equation is the transportation costs to move sugar based ethanol as well. Most sugar based in not processed in the U.S. and equating what they do in foreign countries regarding how they deal with waste, byproduct, etc is not an apples to apples thing. There are a lot more regulatory requirements on ethanol producers in the U.S., right along with everyone else. That is like saying it takes less energy and is more efficient to make something in China than the U.S. Of course it is cheaper there. They don't have nearly the regulatory requirements that we do. Now if only the coastal areas of the U.S. used the sugar based stuff, and transportation costs to get it to them were reasonable, that would be just fine with me. The corn based could be used in the heartland, again keeping transportation costs down to get it distributed.

Now if you can just get the entire southern tier of the U.S. to start growing sugar cane and the entire northern and western tiers to only grow sugar beets, then you might have a valid case and it would run the corn ethanol producers out of business. I would be quite comfortable with that if it happened. Will still be a market for the corn in its various products. But even if sugar based is more efficient, if the cost of the raising the crop is not profitable, then it will not make any real dent on things as they are now. A Farmer is going to grow the crop that is best for that region of the country and provides the best possible return on the investment.

And one of the largest sources of granulated sugar in the U.S. is beet sugar. The residue from that is not a good bio stock for energy to produce ethanol.
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#3452402 - 08/11/14 12:49 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
redbone3 Offline


Registered: 06/09/12
Posts: 191
Loc: Reno, NV
In the process of making ethanol, grain is first converted to sugar. Starting out with sugar is much more efficient. Brazil makes a great deal of ethanol from sugar at a cheap price, US law prevents us from importing it. So, the production of ethanol is a political more than an engineering problem.
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#3462826 - 08/23/14 02:24 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Yeah, there are a lot of politics in all of this. The RFS regulations are a maze for sure. One thing is, the max ethanol that can be produced from corn is set in the standard. Right now, that is at roughly 14 billion gallons per year. Last data I saw, the amount of ethanol produced from corn was 13.8 billion gallons in 2012. So in effect, we are tapped out on the amount of ethanol that can be produced from corn. And corn prices are tanking. We can't produce more ethanol, and we are in for a major corn crop this year, so the markets are already reflecting that and corn prices are dropping like a rock.

There is a limit on the amount of ethanol that can be produced from sugar beets, but there is a loophole that producers are fixing to take advantage of. Most sugar beets were produced for food grade sugar. There is a work around in that there is no limit on acreages of "energy" or industrial sugar beet production. So if the beets are solely produced for energy, there is no limit. But you can bet, the FDA would be monitoring that none of the sugar be funneled off to food products.

The problem is the old putting the cart before the horse situation. There is not any major ethanol production facilities that are set up for sugar beets. So the money has to be invested in those plants with no appreciable "energy' industrial beet production being done now. No major farming operation is going to raise industrial grade sugar beets unless there is a market to sell them. And sugar beets that are already being grown, are on acreages that are registered as food grade with the FDA. Right now, the food grade cannot be used for ethanol, and the industrial grade cannot be used for food. Until that distinction gets eliminated, and then ethanol plants that can use sugar beets be brought online, we are stuck primarily with corn ethanol production as the primary source in the U.S.

So you have some merry mix ups going on. Do we generate more ethanol production from sugar beets, and where is the money going to come from to get that all worked out, or do we lift the cap on the corn ethanol production, which existing plants can easily take advantage of, and then recover some of the market corn price? If we promote sugar beet ethanol at this point in time, then we are gong to get hit for subsidies to get that off the ground, and we will get hit for corn support payments, as corn prices may drop to below the basement price in which support prices are paid. Or, we can lift the corn ethanol production cap, and then corn prices will stay above the floor price, so corn price supports will be unnecessary. We already have the capacity in place to produce 15-16 billion gallons of ethanol from corn from existing plants, up from the current 13.8 billion gallons. And corn ethanol blender subsidies have already been eliminated as of a few years ago, so we would incur no direct taxpayer cash payments.

At this stage of the game, whether one likes it or not, the established corn version is the most cost effective. Doesn't mean we shouldn't work toward using sugar beets, which I fully agree with, but that is going to take some time to get going and someone is going to have to pay for it. If we take our time, reduce regulatory restrictions, the private sector will get that done better and more efficiently than having the government micro manage it.

This video covers a lot of stuff regarding engines, RFS, and all the associated stuff regarding ethanol, including the caps on production I mentioned, the RFS standard, how CAFE standards will determine how much more ethanol will be needed and why. Long video but pretty interesting info...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzM3RQp2STg
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#3485455 - 09/17/14 04:38 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Jocephus]
RedVic Offline


Registered: 06/10/14
Posts: 10
Loc: Florida
Simple, this way they get more gasoline tax from each purchase at the pump when your vehicle gets lower fuel mileage.

They don't want you to get good mileage, the do want your and my money.

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#3495870 - 09/28/14 09:37 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: RedVic]
Silverado12 Offline


Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 764
Loc: Central Virginia
Originally Posted By: RedVic
Simple, this way they get more gasoline tax from each purchase at the pump when your vehicle gets lower fuel mileage.

They don't want you to get good mileage, the do want your and my money.


Maybe we can get our roads fixed w/extra revenue. Money has to come from somewhere.
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#3499174 - 10/01/14 05:54 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: Kellogg, IA
True, they will get more fuel tax revenue from lower mpg that something like E85 has. But the price, at least in my area, for E85 is substantially less than gasoline to the point that it is a wash. So, I could send it to the oil company or to my state house for road repairs. Not sure if one is better than the other.
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#3512594 - 10/16/14 06:00 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 4185
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Note: The BSFC of a high compression, direct injection, highly turbocharged, heavy duty, E-85 specific engine can be better than a comparable diesel.

However, BSFC is a measure of energy consumption by fuel weight, not by volume. E-85 is considerably lighter than diesel. E-85 sg= 0.7891, Diesel #2 sg 0.851

By "gallons" consumed, the diesel is still better.
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#3512609 - 10/16/14 06:23 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Cujet]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15149
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Note: The BSFC of a high compression, direct injection, highly turbocharged, heavy duty, E-85 specific engine can be better than a comparable diesel.

However, BSFC is a measure of energy consumption by fuel weight, not by volume. E-85 is considerably lighter than diesel. E-85 sg= 0.7891, Diesel #2 sg 0.851

By "gallons" consumed, the diesel is still better.


And since we do not buy it by the pound... makes sense!

But I do expect great things from that engine GM is developing one day, they are spending big bucks to develop it.


Edited by SteveSRT8 (10/16/14 06:25 AM)
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#3512612 - 10/16/14 06:38 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26818
Loc: a prison island
I still use and love BSFC, as Sir Harry was using it 90 years ago, and the numbers just plain make sense.

We need to start the move to heat rate.

Particularly with EVs in the modern mix

Heat Rate is a straight ratio...BTU in/BTU out.

Then it still gets back to BTU in the tank, farm, sun, etc.

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