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#3228975 - 12/27/13 08:15 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^I agree with your predictions for the future. But unfortunately for all of us we get to live in the here and now.

Aldehydes are produced when you burn ethanol. Can't sidestep that, as it is a fact. Google it for a comprehensive list of both scientific and alarmist papers. I am sure technology has an answer for us, but the cars right now do not remove this from exhaust. They simply lower it to what is allegedly an acceptable level. IMO it is amazing how the environmental activists are willing to ignore this item to get more ethanol.

I posted the CR article because it was a source often quoted here, not because I am a fan. There are many more available online, some of which are not as kind.

You and I are in absolute agreement that alternative fuels will eventually come online for us. But I also believe that as long as the lobbyists prowl the halls of our Congress there is little hope for the "best" solution and far more impetus for the most profitable one! The BILLIONS in tax credits for FFV's is a very real issue that is directly related to ethanol in fuel, yet it is routinely ignored.

No one anywhere can refute TT's statements above because they are basically true. They simply focus on the positive aspects and ignore the rest...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3234056 - 01/01/14 07:51 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
6 Months later...OK then. You like aldehydes, I don't. We buy 4k a month in fuel here, so we have a VERY big issue with fuels, taxes, production, etc.

Every argument here also ignores the HUGE CAFE credits given for gas hog FFV's from the major mfgrs. Do you corn liquor guys just ignore those? Are they free? Their unreal cost is never included because that would skew the numbers the wrong way. So just ignore those then.

There's more, but I can't change your mind with facts, and you could easily spend 30 minutes and look at BOTH sides of the issue yourself. No one pays attention to the specifics when the BIG MONEY is being divvied up! Details, Details.

Here's a little article that is as glossy as they come, from a publication that IMO promotes the stuff:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm


Wow, you buy 4K a month of fuel. I'm impressed. Pretty soon you will be up to the 7.5K or more I spend a month in fuel. 21,000 gallons of diesel, and about 2000 gallons of gasoline (or E85 depending on pricing) in a year.

So what if ethanol produces some nasties. So does petroleum. Heck, unless we can get to a hydrogen fueled internal combustion engine like Popular Mechanics did in 1973, anything we burn in an engine is going to produce stuff we all don't like. I learned a long time ago not to lose sleep over to many issues. And since we live in a lot cleaner America than we did in 1970, I think things are going just fine. Ethanol and what it produces is not on the short list of things to worry about. E85, at today's pricing offers me a reasonable fuel at a lower cost per mile than anything else I could put in my pickup's fuel tank.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3234351 - 01/02/14 05:31 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26324
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.


Ruminants eat grass...where's the grass in either (subsidised) corn, or in distillery leftovers ?

Making cows eat cows and sheep because it made good economic sense didn't make a great deal of sense overall a few years ago, did it ?

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#3234352 - 01/02/14 05:35 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26324
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
E85, at today's pricing offers me a reasonable fuel at a lower cost per mile than anything else I could put in my pickup's fuel tank.


http://www.smh.com.au/world/multinationals-carving-up-africa-for-food-20131229-301jk.html

Quote:
Liberia has reportedly signed concessions for nearly one-third of its national territory in recent years. Half of the Democratic Republic of the Congo's agricultural lands are being leased to grow crops, including palm oil for the production of biofuels. Perhaps the largest single venture to date is the ProSAVANA Project in northern Mozambique, where an area roughly the size of Switzerland and Austria combined has been leased by Brazilian and Japanese companies to produce soybeans and maize for export.

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#3234455 - 01/02/14 08:46 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

Top
#3235354 - 01/02/14 11:05 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Shannow]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Prove the statements wrong. You provide evidence of ethanol subsidies existing today. You provide the numbers of how the annual U.S. corn production is divided up. Prove that DDG is not a viable product from ethanol production that isn't in demand world wide due to it's benefits as a high protein feed supplement that is more easily digestible by livestock and can help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.


Ruminants eat grass...where's the grass in either (subsidised) corn, or in distillery leftovers ?

Making cows eat cows and sheep because it made good economic sense didn't make a great deal of sense overall a few years ago, did it ?


How is corn subsidized? The corn price support is based on a floor price of $1.79 a bushel. It hasn't been that low since the early 90's, and as such, there has not been a price support payment made this century. And subsidies to ethanol producers were eliminated in the 2011 budget extension.

And livestock cannot benefit from DDG? Well, let's see.... DDG is highly digestible, It is also been proven to help prevent intestinal colitis in cattle, It is a high protein supplement. Still trying to figure out how that has anything to do with making animals eat animals.

And ruminants do not just eat grass. Come on, you are showing your ignorance. They eat seeds, legumes, and grasses. And guess what? Corn is a grass! Bet ya' forgot that. Yep, corn is a grass and the kernels are no different that the seeds from oats (another grass) that cattle dearly love. Legumes like alfalfa, clover... cattle prefer the seed pods and leaves. Just watch cattle eat and see what they leave behind. All you must have ever seen them eat is sweet grass. They do like that, no doubt.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3235364 - 01/02/14 11:12 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...


Ah, you make the classic mistake. Thinking a credit is a subsidy. News flash... subsidies are direct payments made to the subsidized entity. A tax credit is just a credit that reduces the amount of tax that entity has to pay.

But let's go with your roll. Let's eliminate all tax credits! So everyone must give up their mortgage interest deduction, their child care tax credit, their dependent deduction, their earned income tax credit, etc, etc, etc. If business must give them up, then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Every one should have to give them up. Now then we will be talking about everyone "paying their fair share".
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#3235423 - 01/03/14 12:26 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26324
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And ruminants do not just eat grass. Come on, you are showing your ignorance. They eat seeds, legumes, and grasses. And guess what? Corn is a grass! Bet ya' forgot that. Yep, corn is a grass and the kernels are no different that the seeds from oats (another grass) that cattle dearly love. Legumes like alfalfa, clover... cattle prefer the seed pods and leaves. Just watch cattle eat and see what they leave behind. All you must have ever seen them eat is sweet grass. They do like that, no doubt.


Man, you are a classic...I guess that I've been learned some today...Guess old Dougie from Dungog in Central NSW was correct feeding stale bread to his cattle (by the truckload from the bakery)...bread is wheat, and wheat is grass, just like distillery slops.

He killed a lot of them before the cows learned that bread is grass...

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#3235499 - 01/03/14 06:15 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14549
Loc: Sunny Florida
I think TT made a "classic" misdirection play there^^^

And mocking the tax credits still didn't address the economic benefits of them, which are Billions of dollars. The ethanol folks never want to talk about that part, so they just use derision instead...


Edited by SteveSRT8 (01/03/14 06:15 AM)
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

Top
#3236736 - 01/04/14 04:05 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Merkava_4 Offline


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 9086
Loc: Clovis, CA
What would happen to my 2000 Buick LeSabre if I tried to run E85 in it ?

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#3237529 - 01/04/14 07:04 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
But tax credits are just a reduction is the amount of taxes having to be paid. Sure it benefits the ethanol industry, but they also benefit everyone that has tax credits they can use for their own personal taxes. I was not mocking, I was just stating that it is disingenuous to demand they be eliminated from business, but no one wants to give them up for their own tax situation.

And dried distellers grain cannot be compared to bread someone fed their cattle. DDG has a long, long history as a prime livestock feed supplement. If the livestock industry was experiencing mass die offs, they would discontinue using the stuff. You really need to have a chat with the local ag extension office of your state university. They can really clue you in.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#3237534 - 01/04/14 07:06 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Merkava_4]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
You and your engine would not like it. Unless an engine is designed to run E85, putting it in is not a good idea. There are ECM tuners available that enable a person to reprogram their vehicle to use E85. Virtually all fuel systems made this century will handle E85. OEM's do not like to stockpile two different kinds of fuel systems. They have been using ethanol ready fuel components almost exclusively since the late 90's.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

Top
#3237671 - 01/04/14 09:04 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26324
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And dried distellers grain cannot be compared to bread someone fed their cattle.


You are the one that stated that I was ignorant, and the Distillers Grain was essentially grass...

Top
#3239197 - 01/06/14 09:42 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
javacontour Offline


Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 7472
Loc: Illinois
I would be good with this. Let's get one flat tax rate too. No reduced taxes just because you don't make enough, or have a different flavor of income.

Back to your back and forth smile


Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note that no one has commented on the HUGE dollar amount of tax credits issued for the manufacture of FFV's.

It's a multi BILLION dollar a year biz, these things are traded like dollars.

None of our ethanol proponents mentioned this huge Government subsidy...


Ah, you make the classic mistake. Thinking a credit is a subsidy. News flash... subsidies are direct payments made to the subsidized entity. A tax credit is just a credit that reduces the amount of tax that entity has to pay.

But let's go with your roll. Let's eliminate all tax credits! So everyone must give up their mortgage interest deduction, their child care tax credit, their dependent deduction, their earned income tax credit, etc, etc, etc. If business must give them up, then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Every one should have to give them up. Now then we will be talking about everyone "paying their fair share".
_________________________
network down, IP packets delivered via UPS -BOFH

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#3239307 - 01/06/14 11:23 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: javacontour]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 950
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I can deal with a flat tax thing, or better yet, the Fair Tax, though I don't see either as making much headway anytime soon. There are too many lobbyists that push various agendas that like the tax code as it is. I get a lot of little "credits" by doing things a certain way in my business, but I have no problem giving them up if there indeed was some form of general taxation that was realistic and fair.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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