ARX and LC20 are a great combination!

[Big O Dave]

I have found that ARX used with LC20 following in the rinse phase truly delivers the goods, as far as cleaning goes.

My Dad and I have used ARX with great results over the last year or so... I only wish I would have taken "before" photos so I could give some evidence of how well this stuff works. Here's an example:

A year ago I bought an '83 Ford F250 4x4, 97K miles, original 460 in it. It was leaking oil very badly from the valve covers, so we removed them to replace the gaskets. What we saw under there was not terrible, but it was typical for a vehicle that was 22 years old and had sat around a lot - baked on grunge coated everything, including the inside of the valve covers.

Plus, it ran rough and got 5mpg.

Between ARX and LC20 in the oil, a number of fuel system cleaners (and perhaps also from MASSIVE doses of MMO in the fuel, mixed with ATF) it now has been transformed. It runs very smoothly and normally hovers around 10mpg (normal for a healthy carbureted 460 w/o overdrive and 4.10 gears), depending on how I'm using my throttle foot. The point is, I can really tell a difference in the way it drives, compared to a year ago when I first bought it.

But here's what really blew me away: two weeks ago we again changed the valve cover gaskets (this time to rubber ones) and when the valve covers came off, everyone at my shop was stunned... everything was completely spotless, and I mean COMPLETELY! Not even varnish. Guys who had seen it when we first had the valve covers off a year ago simply were amazed, and two of them immediately snagged bottles of ARX from me to try in their own vehicles. It literally looked like it had just returned from being hot-tanked, or was a new engine.

Now this came after three ARX treatments, and some experimenting with LC20 in the rinse phase, but regardless, I now have a truck that runs like new, and essentially all I did was drive it for a year. Can't beat that!

As far as the ARX/LC20 combo, here's what I've found about using them together (not at the same time, but in sequence): I run the normal ARX clean phase for 1,500 miles and then begin the rinse phase as indicated in the ARX instructions, but at a point somewhere between 800-500 miles before the rinse phase is completed, I add LC20 to the rinse oil (in the LCD recommended dosage).

The first ARX treatment I did on this truck was completely according to the ARX instructions, with no LC20 added during the rinse phase. It was in the rinse phase of the second ARX treatment that I added LC20 and very quickly noticed further improved running and mileage, so I suspected that I was on to something.

After the second ARX treatment was completed, we changed the timing set and water pump, and noticed that there was still some crud on the old timing set, but that it was very easily rinsed away... it was as though the crud had been well emulsified, but a little "help" was needed to remove the remainder. So I decided to run a third ARX treatment, and after that was when the valve covers came off the second time and the results were as I described above.

One final note: in a number of places around here at BITOG I've seen it recommended to use ARX and LC20 separately, but I have come to believe that this is more so users can clearly see the benefit of each on an individual basis, and NOT because they are incompatible. Perhaps ARX and LCD are being careful to avoid stepping on one anothers "toes," or competing, but I believe there ought to be more experimentation with using them as a one-two punch to clean engines very thoroughly and completely.

I wish I had photos from the first time I had the valve covers off so you could see the improvement, but I didn't think about it at the time, and I haven't taken photos of the second valve cover removal because of time constraints and a dead camera battery, but perhaps soon I'll get my tech to take the covers off again, and I'll get some photos to post.

Last, I now have Chevron Delo 400 Synthetic 0W-30 in the F250 and a Baldwin B2-HPG filter on it, and I'll have a UOA to share with you on this combo in about 5,000 miles.

Sorry this is so long!

 

[peterr]

I had womdered about the possible positive effects of adding LC20 to the Rinse oil about 200 miles before dumping it, guessing that the sovency might help. However I have been a little leery of mixing, so I havbe not tried this. I have adopted the practice of going through this cycle:
AutoRX Clean Cycle using Dino
Auto RX Rinse Cycle using Dino HDEO
Regular OCI using LC20 with Synthetic or HDEO Dino

Anyone else have any "best practices" with combinations or sequences of ARX and LC20?

 

[GarrettSocling]

If the idea of the rinse phase is to allow the sludge which the ARX has attacked to come loose into the oil, and (one of) the idea of LC20 is to allow sludge and varnish to come loose into the oil, you'd think, as long as the LC20 and ARX didn't neutralize each other (only long experience or a chemist would tell you that) they do sound like a match made in heaven. Of course I have no real idea what I am talking about, as they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

 

[Big O Dave]

Garrett, just to clarify, ARX and LC20 emulsify (dissolve) deposits and enable them to be rinsed away. The beauty of these products is that they don't cause bits and pieces of crud to "come loose" into the oil, but they slowly and gently dissolve them and they are rinsed away.

If that's what you meant, then we're on the same page!

Also, I am not a chemist, either, but in my experience, it sure appears that they do not neutralize one another.

 

[SSDude]

I have used them together before.


http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001790


As a result, my UOA showed no insoluables. This is almost unheard of in a high powered LS1 engnine.

 

[9296D21B14]

What peterr said. I'm pleased to say the least. Now on to Neutra 131 for every other fuel treatments with FP60 and crankcase purges. No mixing, alternating on both oil and fuel additives.

 

[Big O Dave]

929 & Peterr, I'm sure that the procedure that you are describing works every bit as well as what I did above. It is essentially the same thing, but you guys are more patient about waiting to use the LC20. In essense, you have found the same thing that I have - that ARX and LC20 are a great one-two punch for cleaning up an engine.

Incidently, I always have used HDEO in the ARX rinse phase, too.

One last thing: I have been told by a very knowledgeable and experienced ARX user that if I just would have been more patient and had performed an additional, longer rinse phase, my results would have been very similar to the one's I've described above.

The point, overall, is that ARX is the real deal, and LC20 sure has its place in cleaning, too.

 

[kreigle]

Interesting results.

I emailed Frank a couple months ago about the lack of cleaning in my engine after 2 auto-rx cycles, and was told that it was because I used LC20 in one of the rinse cycles, that they 'cancelled' each other and resulted in the engine not getting cleaned. Either way, my oil consumption has doubled and my engine is still black inside.

 

[XB70]

kreigle,

Do you have any leaks, or is it all due to consumption? What are the comparative rates of consumption? PCV okay? Same weight, style and brand of oil? Any changes in driver, driving style, weather, etc.?

You might consider a separate post just for this topic alone.

 

[Frank]

kreigle get some Castrol GTX and run a 3000 miles rinse cycle change the filter at 1500 miles. Don't add any solvents or petrolueum based additives.Let me know
how your doing.

 

[Volvohead]

I agree with Frank here. This entire post may do a disservice insofar as LC may behave as an ester or near ester, and if so would be the same as using a synthetic as a rinse oil.

The result of adding LC20 would then be the same as using a synthetic rinse oil - cutting short the rinse phase at that point. As Frank suggests, you would then have to reload all over again with a straight dino to complete the rinse phase.

That's not to dispute the reported results in this instance, but they may be the exception rather than the rule considering the relative chemistries involved.

And this instance adds a twist in that most of the normal rinse phase was completed before the LC was added. I suspect kreigle added the LC in the rinse at the outset, so got no rinse effect whatsoever.

Obviously, the obstacle to reaching a definitive answer to the LC/ARX mixology issue is that while we know ARX works with natural ester chemistry, the exact chemistry of LC remains undisclosed. So we're left only with educated guesses.

But this ARX/LC mix issue and Frank's instruction to run a 3k rinse also raises another very interesting question: Where a competing agent is added to the ARX rinse, repolarizing the contaminants, can the combined benefits of BOTH agents still be achieved with an extended straight dino rinse????

 

[BrianWC]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Volvohead:
I suspect kreigle added the LC in the rinse at the outset, so got no rinse effect whatsoever.

---

That's a bold leap. We don't have any definate proof that LC will do anything to affect ARX. Of course, Frank says don't do it and he should know arx. But as far as making statements like adding LC at the outset will result in no cleaning-that's taking it a big step further.

 

[Volvohead]

I think if anyone should know what works with his product, and what doesn't, it would be the product's inventor. That should be proof enough. Besides, Frank is not the only one who has advised against ARX with LC; some others with decent chemistry credentials have also.

I never said that no cleaning took place. ARX is a two step process. It was the rinse that got jammed up. It is apparent that the rinse phase is the more delicate of the two, and that is the one with the oil chemistry limitations.

Obviously, there's no law against mixing stuff. It's the consumer's product to use however he likes. But we get so many curious new folk asking about and trying ARX that what happened in this instance was the bold leap.

But it apparently worked out well for Big O Dave, I have a soft heart for 429/460s, and share his joy.

 

[Big O Dave]

I still think what I said before,

quote:

---

One final note: in a number of places around here at BITOG I've seen it recommended to use ARX and LC20 separately, but I have come to believe that this is more so users can clearly see the benefit of each on an individual basis, and NOT because they are incompatible. Perhaps ARX and LCD are being careful to avoid stepping on one anothers "toes," or competing...

---

...is to a large extent why the two don't get official sanctioning (to be used together) around here. No offense to Frank or LCD intended, in saying this.

In my case, I didn't want to go through another rinse phase because I wanted to begin using my Delo 400 Synthetic 0W-30 sooner, rather than later.

Of course, I could be wrong...

 

[BrianWC]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Big O Dave:
I still think what I said before,

quote:

---

One final note: in a number of places around here at BITOG I've seen it recommended to use ARX and LC20 separately, but I have come to believe that this is more so users can clearly see the benefit of each on an individual basis, and NOT because they are incompatible. Perhaps ARX and LCD are being careful to avoid stepping on one anothers "toes," or competing...

---

...is to a large extent why the two don't get official sanctioning (to be used together) around here. No offense to Frank or LCD intended, in saying this.

In my case, I didn't want to go through another rinse phase because I wanted to begin using my Delo 400 Synthetic 0W-30 sooner, rather than later.

Of course, I could be wrong...

---

I think you may be right to an extint as well, but we'll never know!

No, Volvohead, I agree with you. When new folk come on here, the best thing for them is just follow Frank's instructions and/or LCD's instructions. They are sound and have worked for countless thousands of folks.

That being said, I just don't understand how the cancelling effect takes place. It's just intellectual curiosity on my part, not intended to be argumenative with anyone. I just look at other products such as say Castrol-StartUp or Redline or any oil w/ esters as a component to aid in miscibility or what have you. They do have an additive package and the like. Does the ester content in those products effectively render the other components useless in their quest to attach to the metal? It shouldn't, should it?

Of course, arx is a unique formulation (as well as LC20) and we unwashed masses of BITOGers will never know.

I hope our wild speculations will be tolerated and not taken the wrong way. I certainly have no plans to use the two together any time soon. How then would you know who to give Kudos to?

 

[Big O Dave]

I do agree that the official instructions for ARX and LC20 should be followed, and I should have made it clear that experimenting like this is not for those who are unwilling to take additional risks.

The goal of my original post was to relate to others around here the success I'd had in using the two together, and to (hopefully) encourage some experimentation in this area. I believe that using the two together "speeds thing up," to some degree, and it seems to do so safely, but I won't know, for sure, until I do my UOAs after the process.

Good points you guys have made, above!