Can I use "this engine oil" instead of "this one"?

[Smart_Guy]

Dear All:

Ambient temperature here could reach 50C in some good summer days (usually ~44C max). It happens like a couple of days a year, but it does happen nonetheless and there is no way to know when exactly so I cannot ignore it.

In those days, which is around now btw, I use Mobil Super XHP 20w50. Here are its technical data (for comparison):
Semi-synthetic
Dino (mineral) Oil
ACEA A2,B2,A3,B3
API SL,SJ,CF
cSt@40ºC : 171
cSt@100ºC : 19.1
Viscosity
Index,ASTM D 2270 : 127
SulfatedAsh, wt%, ASTM D 874 : 0.9
HTHS Viscosity, mPa·s@150ºC, ASTM D4683 : 4.7
Pour Point,ºC, ASTM D 97 : -24
Flash Point,ºC, ASTM D 92 : 239
Density@15ºC kg/l, ASTM D 4052 : 0.88

And I wonder it I can use Total Quartz 7000 10w40, which I use in winter. Here are its technical data:
ACEA A3/B4
API SL/CF
Volumetric mass at 15°C : 873.6
Viscosity at 40°C : 96.8
Viscosity at 100°C : 14,81
Viscosity index : 160
Flash point Cleveland : 232°C
Pour point : -24°C

Or alternatively these links:
For Mobil XHP 20w50
http://www.yemlub.com/AutomotiveProducts/PassengerCar%28Petrol%29EngineOils/glxxenpvlmomobil_super_xhp.pdf
For Total Quartz 7000 10w40:
http://www.totaloil.com.au/Pages/content/NT0000C2C6.pdf

The owner's manual says that both of these grades can be used at ambient temperatures of +30C which is not clear enough because there is like +20C more to it for the ambient temperature I'm looking at. Both of these oils have MB 229.1 approval, the right one for the engine.

Vehicle is Mercedes w124 1992, 12 valves 3L engine engine M103 with ~350,000 KM on the clock.

I don't have much of a choice as I want approval MB 229.1 present and no full synthetics as i want to change the oil at 10,000KM intervals max for maintenance purposes.

The main reason I wish to use the Total oil instead of the Mobil here is because I noticed that engine starts better with almost no lifters' noise on good cold starts with the former.

So, as per the given data and ambient temperature, can I do that?

Thank you in advance.

 

[eljefino]

The thing to do after a hard run in hot temps is use an infared heat gun on your oil pan, engine block etc and see how much hotter it is than on a 20-30'C day.

Being water cooled, it won't be a 1:1 ratio of oil temp increase vs air temp.

Falcoln_LS runs a crown vic in Kuwait and he doesn't think too highly of 20w50 as it's all everyone runs and he feels it's too thick.

But OTOH Mercedes might take it better, 20w50 has been popular with euro cars. Do you have a pressure gauge?

 

[Giorgiz]

20w50 is too often in any situation, in my opinion, the specific mb requires a lubricant that has as a minimum HTHS of 3.5, so between the 2 oils you mentioned, I would put the 10w40 without a shadow of a doubt.
In my Mercedes Kompressor is the specific inquiry 229.1 mb in peace but I use Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 that has the specific 229.5 mb

 

[Smart_Guy]

Thank you guys for the heads up.

Originally Posted By: eljefino
The thing to do after a hard run in hot temps is use an infared heat gun on your oil pan, engine block etc and see how much hotter it is than on a 20-30'C day.

Being water cooled, it won't be a 1:1 ratio of oil temp increase vs air temp.

Falcoln_LS runs a crown vic in Kuwait and he doesn't think too highly of 20w50 as it's all everyone runs and he feels it's too thick.

But OTOH Mercedes might take it better, 20w50 has been popular with euro cars. Do you have a pressure gauge?


Hello there Eljefino.

I always wanted one of those IR guns. I guess now I have a good reason to get one.

Would directly comparing the two readings help if it is of two different grades?

I think that 20w50 is indeed too think for newer engines. The engine on my car is the same of that of model year '86 so I guess it is old enough to have that thick oil for it. It has an iron block and it is flat tappet which I believe is fine with such thick oil. Well, owner's manual says this grade can be used for ambient temps of 0C to +30C.

I own a CV as well btw. I use 10w30 for it and the local dealer uses it (only it) as well. When the warranty is over, I'll move to 5w30 to cover up for both the 5w20 the factory recommends and the 10w30 the local dealer deals with, of course following the right standards and approvals. The only reason I use 20w50 with this MB is because it is acceptable as mentioned on the owner's manual and because of its price. The subject 10w40 runs better so I had it in mind.

Yes, there is an engine oil pressure gauge and it comes standard with these cars (I believe it was canceled in newer models). It is a 3 bar (sorry, no PSI) gauge. The reading with the 20w50 at fully warmed up engine (and I do mean fully) reads a hair below 2 bar at lowest and with the subject 10w40 it reads 1.5 bar at lowest. Pressure increases fine with revving. Owner's manual says it is OK to go to as low as 0.3 bar. It could be a typo, but at least I'm not even near that number.

Originally Posted By: Giorgiz
20w50 is too often in any situation, in my opinion, the specific mb requires a lubricant that has as a minimum HTHS of 3.5, so between the 2 oils you mentioned, I would put the 10w40 without a shadow of a doubt.
In my Mercedes Kompressor is the specific inquiry 229.1 mb in peace but I use Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 that has the specific 229.5 mb


Hi there Giorgiz.

How's the climate where you live? I thought of 5w40 grade, but the temps here are not so forgiving so the "40" part of the grade worries me a little. The case, although not sure, would be different with you as yours is equipped with forced induction solution. I also don't wanna used long life engine oils as the engine is of an old design and above that it burns oil so synthetic oils might give some unpredictable results.

 

[Giorgiz]

I live in a warm climate in the south of Italy, in summer reaches 42 ° in winter near 0 °, 5w40 is a great choice for Mercedes engines, alternatively you can use Mobil 1 0W40 new life that is a little more often in the Shell Helix Ultra 5w40, or if you just want to go on w50 go with Mobil 1 5W50 but this choice is not necessary

 

[Smart_Guy]

I agree.

I however have some special cases; that the engine burns oil, which means refills, and it takes like 2 1L refills before the 10,000km change interval, which makes it uneconomical, and that maintenance recommendations for this old engine is, when it concerns engine oil, is change every 10,000km that includes filter change. No advanced filters were made, or at least available here, for these engines to cover more than 10,000km. The latter alone is enough if you ask me.

I might sound superstitious, but it made this old engine run as new ever sense bought 3 years ago with 220,000km on the clock (now 350,000km.

 

[A_Harman]

Running a conventional 10w40 in a hot, hot climate like yours would make me a little nervous. 10w40's quite often have a large amount of viscosity index improvers, which makes that grade of oil prone to permanent shear viscosity loss. Have you considered a 15w40?

 

[fdcg27]

I've run GTX 20W-50 summers in a gas Mercedes of similar vintage, and this grade was within the OM recommendations for the engine oil.
I would not do so again. I'd use a 10W-40.
In your situation, I'd use the Total 10W-40.
If you're really nervous about shearing, you could do a normal run of this oil and then UOA it.
This would show you whether loss in viscosity is a problem for you in this application and ambient temperature.
10W-40s are not nearly as prone to shearing as was once the case and Total is a quality brand.
The adds required will help with oil life as well.

 

[bigt61]

Total 10W-40 is the best bet. According to the links you provided, the Total (Synthetic based oil for Gasoline and Diesel engines) is a full synthetic and the Mobil is a conventional. If your Crown Vic is surviving with 10W-30, I'd think a 40wt synthetic would be plenty for the Benz.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Smart_Guy
I however have some special cases; that the engine burns oil, which means refills, and it takes like 2 1L refills before the 10,000km change interval, which makes it uneconomical, and that maintenance recommendations for this old engine is, when it concerns engine oil, is change every 10,000km that includes filter change. No advanced filters were made, or at least available here, for these engines to cover more than 10,000km. The latter alone is enough if you ask me.

Is it drinking oil or oozing out from the PCV or... ???
Is this mb clean under the hood?
a picture would help as well.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Running a conventional 10w40 in a hot, hot climate like yours would make me a little nervous. 10w40's quite often have a large amount of viscosity index improvers, which makes that grade of oil prone to permanent shear viscosity loss. Have you considered a 15w40?


This close to what I have in mind. But the 10w40 I'm using is not conventional, it is either semi or full synthetic, not sure yet. If the big amount additives were the reason for conventional 10w40 to break, I guess then if the semi or full synthetic will have less additives therefore less prone to breaking... am I on the right path?

I guess the real question is; can grade 10w40, whether it breaks extremely fast or slow, take ambient temps of up to ~50C (let's say 48C) by the book? I personally move to 20w50 once it goes above 40C max and constantly above ~30C min (these days it is so at night).

As a matter of fact, I've used 15w40 for some time. It was Mobil XHP 15w40. Unfortunately, it got discontinued for some reason and it was the only 15w40 engine oil around here with 229.1 MB approval. This is the main reason I looked for 10w40, the closest to 15w40. I'm religious when it comes to manufacturer's recommendations.

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I've run GTX 20W-50 summers in a gas Mercedes of similar vintage, and this grade was within the OM recommendations for the engine oil.
I would not do so again. I'd use a 10W-40.
In your situation, I'd use the Total 10W-40.
If you're really nervous about shearing, you could do a normal run of this oil and then UOA it.
This would show you whether loss in viscosity is a problem for you in this application and ambient temperature.
10W-40s are not nearly as prone to shearing as was once the case and Total is a quality brand.
The adds required will help with oil life as well.



How long have you been using 10w40 on that MB? and under which ambient temps? I could compare and decide easier depending on it.

As for the Used oil Analysis, I doubt that any one around here even knows what that means. It is, unfortunately, out of the question. Unless I find a way to ship the needed amount over seas (and I'm bad with that) to the nearest possible labs and it is certainly not really close by.

I know of others using xw40 with MB's here, but on newer models only. After '98 (European model years) MB engines changed. No flat tappet anymore. This makes it hard to relate.

Originally Posted By: bigt61
Total 10W-40 is the best bet. According to the links you provided, the Total (Synthetic based oil for Gasoline and Diesel engines) is a full synthetic and the Mobil is a conventional. If your Crown Vic is surviving with 10W-30, I'd think a 40wt synthetic would be plenty for the Benz.


Actually, it is a little vague. It says "synthetic based" and also on their website is says "100% synthetic lubricant" and "The base oil used for the TOTAL QUARTZ 7000 product range is a mix of mineral-based oils and synthetic oils" in another.

As for the Ford CV, I had the same thought, but can we really compare its new US made 2009 engine (including oil pump) with that of a Euro '92 engine? The material, even though they are both internal combustion gas engines, could be different. I however think your argument valid and makes sense.

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Smart_Guy
I however have some special cases; that the engine burns oil, which means refills, and it takes like 2 1L refills before the 10,000km change interval, which makes it uneconomical, and that maintenance recommendations for this old engine is, when it concerns engine oil, is change every 10,000km that includes filter change. No advanced filters were made, or at least available here, for these engines to cover more than 10,000km. The latter alone is enough if you ask me.

Is it drinking oil or oozing out from the PCV or... ???
Is this mb clean under the hood?
a picture would help as well.


I'll try to upload a pic later.

It is clean under the hood and I maintain it very well. Front and rear O ring seals, valve cover seal and valve stem seals were replaced, and every ~30,000km spark plug change I see no oil at all on them. No leeks around the PCV. Cylinder head and its gasket look fine with no leaks around. There is a minor leak around the oil pan but it is minimal that barely drops little oil on the under-engine cover (if this is the right name for it). I'm planning to solve this soon.

The main loss of oil is most likely due to internal problems. before replacing the valve seals, it was like 2 liters every 2500km under hard driving conditions. Now it is 1.5 liters every 3000km under the same driving habits. Under mixed moderate to hard driving, consumption goes down to like 1 liter every 4000km. All of the above is for highway non stop driving for like 1 hour. In city driving will most likely improve consumption much further. City drive is like 10% of my use of this car.

Owner's manual says engine oil consumption depends on driving and it is normal to have up to 1.5 liter every 1000km max consumption(too much if you ask me). Being German, we can only imaging what hard driving is like on their open speed autobahn. My hard driving is fixing speed at ~120kmph with frequent burn outs to pass when I have the chance or forced to (or to enjoy it when I have the chance to do it safely).