Red Line: chemstry tweaks across the street range
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Originally Posted By: buster
You would think RL would offer a super light low viscosity 20 grade oil being 1. They are using POE base oils 2. Usually load up their oils with AW additives.
I agree.
I don't know what RL is thinking when they state that their 0W-20 is suitable for hybrids and other vehicles for which a 0W-20 is specified. It has nothing in common with the OEM 0W-20s other than the high moly level.
They could use the same base oils they formulate their 0W-5 race oil with, add their street DI package and suitable amount of shear stable VIIs and vlola a competitive 0W-20 or even the first 0W-16.
You would think RL would offer a super light low viscosity 20 grade oil being 1. They are using POE base oils 2. Usually load up their oils with AW additives.
I agree.
I don't know what RL is thinking when they state that their 0W-20 is suitable for hybrids and other vehicles for which a 0W-20 is specified. It has nothing in common with the OEM 0W-20s other than the high moly level.
They could use the same base oils they formulate their 0W-5 race oil with, add their street DI package and suitable amount of shear stable VIIs and vlola a competitive 0W-20 or even the first 0W-16.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
They do not offer a bonafide 20wt.
What about mixing some of their 2, 0w5, or 0w10 with something thicker?
They do not offer a bonafide 20wt.
What about mixing some of their 2, 0w5, or 0w10 with something thicker?
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
They do not offer a bonafide 20wt.
What about mixing some of their 2, 0w5, or 0w10 with something thicker?
Yes you could and I've have done just that with their 0W-10 race oil (which has the HTHSV of a 20wt btw) but they are very low VI (130 range) TBN 2 oils that will not produce a suitable end product.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
They do not offer a bonafide 20wt.
What about mixing some of their 2, 0w5, or 0w10 with something thicker?
Yes you could and I've have done just that with their 0W-10 race oil (which has the HTHSV of a 20wt btw) but they are very low VI (130 range) TBN 2 oils that will not produce a suitable end product.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
They do not offer a bonafide 20wt.
What about mixing some of their 2, 0w5, or 0w10 with something thicker?
Yes you could and I've have done just that with their 0W-10 race oil (which has the HTHSV of a 20wt btw) but they are very low VI (130 range) TBN 2 oils that will not produce a suitable end product.
What you could do is blend 20% of RL 0W-40 with 80% RL 0W-5 (assuming a HTHSV of 2.3cP) to produce a 145 VI 2.6cP 0W-20; a very low VI 0W-20. Then blend that 50/50 with the TGMO 0W-20 to produce a 180 VI 0W-20 that's 50% POE/PAO with a high ZDDP/moly level.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
They do not offer a bonafide 20wt.
What about mixing some of their 2, 0w5, or 0w10 with something thicker?
Yes you could and I've have done just that with their 0W-10 race oil (which has the HTHSV of a 20wt btw) but they are very low VI (130 range) TBN 2 oils that will not produce a suitable end product.
What you could do is blend 20% of RL 0W-40 with 80% RL 0W-5 (assuming a HTHSV of 2.3cP) to produce a 145 VI 2.6cP 0W-20; a very low VI 0W-20. Then blend that 50/50 with the TGMO 0W-20 to produce a 180 VI 0W-20 that's 50% POE/PAO with a high ZDDP/moly level.
Yes, I also wish that they would produce a very high VI, lower HTHSV, 0W-20 that I could blend with their 0W-40 (which I wish they would have INCREASED the VI of, NOT decreased it!
) for a winter OCI use.
OR, just build me the highest VI (using the 'latest and greatest' VIIs, of course), ~3.3 HTHSV 0W-30 on the planet, with their current high AW/AF content addpack, and a CRAZY high TBN.
(I would HAPPILY add top up during an OCI to the above necessarily high NOACK oil (AND live with the subsequent deposits if any were produced) IF they would build it!
)
OR, just build me the highest VI (using the 'latest and greatest' VIIs, of course), ~3.3 HTHSV 0W-30 on the planet, with their current high AW/AF content addpack, and a CRAZY high TBN.
(I would HAPPILY add top up during an OCI to the above necessarily high NOACK oil (AND live with the subsequent deposits if any were produced) IF they would build it!
Their 0W-5 race oil has a NOACK of 12% which would still be very good if they used those light base oils to formulate a high VI 0W-20 then you could blend it with their 0W-40 to make a high VI 0W-30 with a still decent NOACK.
So yes it certainly could be done, it's just a matter of convincing a formulator to do it meaning enough of a market to buy the product. With so many cars now spec'd for the 0W-20 grade I think there is enough of a market for a high performance light high VI 0W-20 ester/PAO oil.
So yes it certainly could be done, it's just a matter of convincing a formulator to do it meaning enough of a market to buy the product. With so many cars now spec'd for the 0W-20 grade I think there is enough of a market for a high performance light high VI 0W-20 ester/PAO oil.
I should add that RLI have heavy 0W-20 (HTHSV 3-3.3cP) with a 178 VI and a heavy 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.6-3.8cP) with a 193 VI. That combination is still somewhat better than the new RL 0W oils.
Being 2.6 is the limit for HT/HS for 20 grades, could RL technically make an oil with a HT/HS of say 2.0 that offered the same protection as one with a 2.6 HT/HS? RL always claims how you can sometimes go one grade lower with RL, but that's usually because the HT/HS is higher than most other oils.
Originally Posted By: buster
Being 2.6 is the limit for HT/HS for 20 grades, could RL technically make an oil with a HT/HS of say 2.0 that offered the same protection as one with a 2.6 HT/HS? RL always claims how you can sometimes go one grade lower with RL, but that's usually because the HT/HS is higher than most other oils.
The new Motul 300V Sprint 0W-15 has a HTHSV of 2.1cP with a 155 VI.
As the name "sprint" inplies this oil like a qualifying oil for applications where oil temp's don't have a chance to rise very high. The thing in, a super high VI oil like Sustina 0W-20 with it's 2.6cP HTHSV is lighter at temp's below 50F and not much heavier until the oil temp's get up to normal. I would much rather run a higher VI oil with a higher HTHSV for the additional high temp' protection and the flexibility of a wider operating temperature range.
IMO low VI race oils are obsolete.
For street use even for the new 0W-16 grade, finished HTHSV of the oil must be at least the grade minimum of 2.3cP.
Being 2.6 is the limit for HT/HS for 20 grades, could RL technically make an oil with a HT/HS of say 2.0 that offered the same protection as one with a 2.6 HT/HS? RL always claims how you can sometimes go one grade lower with RL, but that's usually because the HT/HS is higher than most other oils.
The new Motul 300V Sprint 0W-15 has a HTHSV of 2.1cP with a 155 VI.
As the name "sprint" inplies this oil like a qualifying oil for applications where oil temp's don't have a chance to rise very high. The thing in, a super high VI oil like Sustina 0W-20 with it's 2.6cP HTHSV is lighter at temp's below 50F and not much heavier until the oil temp's get up to normal. I would much rather run a higher VI oil with a higher HTHSV for the additional high temp' protection and the flexibility of a wider operating temperature range.
IMO low VI race oils are obsolete.
For street use even for the new 0W-16 grade, finished HTHSV of the oil must be at least the grade minimum of 2.3cP.
Anyone else notice that the non-euro Redline 5w-30 has a HTHSV of 3.7 instead of the old 3.8?
In-fact, alot of stuff changed... whats up with that?
In-fact, alot of stuff changed... whats up with that?
Originally Posted By: randomhero439
In-fact, alot of stuff changed... whats up with that?
Well that's the title of the thread but for details about the changes go see the first post.
I was doing some back to back euro comparo and Amsoil is also constantly tweaking their formulas.
... Here's some data with the 3 versions (in the last 12 months) of AFL and RL Euro. NOtice the trend on the AFL.
oldAFL/newAFL/revisedAFL/RLEuro5W40
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt 13.7/13.7/14.3/15.2
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt 82.2/82.9/88.5/91
Viscosity Index 171/171/168/177
Viscosity CCS, cP @ °C 5171/5314/5855/5800
Flash Point °C (°F) 230 (446)/228 (442)/224 (433)
Fire Point °C (°F) 248 (478)/244 (471)/ 240 (428)/232 (450)
Pour Point °C (°F) -43 (-45)/ -43 (-45)/-40 (-40)/-45 (-49)
Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) 8.9/7.4/10.0/6
HTHS (cP) 3.8/3.8/3.8/4.3
In-fact, alot of stuff changed... whats up with that?
Well that's the title of the thread but for details about the changes go see the first post.
I was doing some back to back euro comparo and Amsoil is also constantly tweaking their formulas.
... Here's some data with the 3 versions (in the last 12 months) of AFL and RL Euro. NOtice the trend on the AFL.
oldAFL/newAFL/revisedAFL/RLEuro5W40
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt 13.7/13.7/14.3/15.2
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt 82.2/82.9/88.5/91
Viscosity Index 171/171/168/177
Viscosity CCS, cP @ °C 5171/5314/5855/5800
Flash Point °C (°F) 230 (446)/228 (442)/224 (433)
Fire Point °C (°F) 248 (478)/244 (471)/ 240 (428)/232 (450)
Pour Point °C (°F) -43 (-45)/ -43 (-45)/-40 (-40)/-45 (-49)
Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) 8.9/7.4/10.0/6
HTHS (cP) 3.8/3.8/3.8/4.3
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I should add that RLI have heavy 0W-20 (HTHSV 3-3.3cP) with a 178 VI and a heavy 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.6-3.8cP) with a 193 VI. That combination is still somewhat better than the new RL 0W oils.
How is that? You know the high VI won't make up for such a high HTHS.
Oh wait, if you're talking about blending smth from the two, then yes maybe.
I should add that RLI have heavy 0W-20 (HTHSV 3-3.3cP) with a 178 VI and a heavy 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.6-3.8cP) with a 193 VI. That combination is still somewhat better than the new RL 0W oils.
How is that? You know the high VI won't make up for such a high HTHS.
Oh wait, if you're talking about blending smth from the two, then yes maybe.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So yes it certainly could be done, it's just a matter of convincing a formulator to do it meaning enough of a market to buy the product. With so many cars now spec'd for the 0W-20 grade I think there is enough of a market for a high performance light high VI 0W-20 ester/PAO oil.
Good market for it in NA, I agree. I think RL is blending for European needs though
AFAIK SAE 16 has a minimum of 2.3cP HTHS Vis. Maybe Amsoil will jump on it the same way they did with the new SAE 110. Not sure how successful was that though.
I could see how the SAE 16 would help blenders that don't like to do Nippon-type high VI oil (like Amsoil and Red Line). I'm sure they'll jump on that boat rather than blending a light 20 with a high VI.
So yes it certainly could be done, it's just a matter of convincing a formulator to do it meaning enough of a market to buy the product. With so many cars now spec'd for the 0W-20 grade I think there is enough of a market for a high performance light high VI 0W-20 ester/PAO oil.
Good market for it in NA, I agree. I think RL is blending for European needs though
AFAIK SAE 16 has a minimum of 2.3cP HTHS Vis. Maybe Amsoil will jump on it the same way they did with the new SAE 110. Not sure how successful was that though.
I could see how the SAE 16 would help blenders that don't like to do Nippon-type high VI oil (like Amsoil and Red Line). I'm sure they'll jump on that boat rather than blending a light 20 with a high VI.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I should add that RLI have heavy 0W-20 (HTHSV 3-3.3cP) with a 178 VI and a heavy 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.6-3.8cP) with a 193 VI. That combination is still somewhat better than the new RL 0W oils.
(I know buster is going to freak out over this question, but here goes anyway
):
Just how incompatible would you imagine the base stocks, and AW,AF/detergent packs to be between the RLI 0W-30 and Sustina 0W-20 for a winter OCI blend??
Is there ANYTHING to worry about with this mix (regardless of buster's, or others' dissing of it)?
I should add that RLI have heavy 0W-20 (HTHSV 3-3.3cP) with a 178 VI and a heavy 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.6-3.8cP) with a 193 VI. That combination is still somewhat better than the new RL 0W oils.
(I know buster is going to freak out over this question, but here goes anyway
Just how incompatible would you imagine the base stocks, and AW,AF/detergent packs to be between the RLI 0W-30 and Sustina 0W-20 for a winter OCI blend??
Is there ANYTHING to worry about with this mix (regardless of buster's, or others' dissing of it)?
RL 5W40 is now friction modified. We are getiing 600ppm of Moly. CJ-4 dispersant pack goes out. S Ash stays at 1% off course.
JAG said it well here. I personally hold that view, others may not and that's fine.
Quote:
Unfortunately, with synergy and antagonism being a reality between different additives and also between base oils and additives, by mixing you are more likely to create antagonism than synergy by mixing very different motor oils.
With synergy, 1+1 may equal 3.
With antagonism, 1+1 may equal 0.7.
If you want a better oil, use a better oil without mixing it with anything. If you want to use up old stock, it is very reasonable from a cost perspective to mix different oils.
Originally Posted By: buster
JAG said it well here. I personally hold that view, others may not and that's fine.
Quote:
Unfortunately, with synergy and antagonism being a reality between different additives and also between base oils and additives, by mixing you are more likely to create antagonism than synergy by mixing very different motor oils.
With synergy, 1+1 may equal 3.
With antagonism, 1+1 may equal 0.7.
If you want a better oil, use a better oil without mixing it with anything. If you want to use up old stock, it is very reasonable from a cost perspective to mix different oils.
JAG never said that in this thread so why are you quoting him?
We all know that you're not into mixing oils which is fine, but what does that have to do with this thread? Nothing.
JAG said it well here. I personally hold that view, others may not and that's fine.
Quote:
Unfortunately, with synergy and antagonism being a reality between different additives and also between base oils and additives, by mixing you are more likely to create antagonism than synergy by mixing very different motor oils.
With synergy, 1+1 may equal 3.
With antagonism, 1+1 may equal 0.7.
If you want a better oil, use a better oil without mixing it with anything. If you want to use up old stock, it is very reasonable from a cost perspective to mix different oils.
JAG never said that in this thread so why are you quoting him?
We all know that you're not into mixing oils which is fine, but what does that have to do with this thread? Nothing.
red line oils are now: moly 600ppm,phos 1375ppm,zinc 1225ppm..dave also said their oils are mostly all poe and a grp 5 oil.
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