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#3366417 - 05/09/14 09:13 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Trav]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trav
I have owned an engine that went 260K Km on one brand and viscosity of engine oil from the first oil change. No additives other than what was in the Castrol RS 10w60 (the red oil).

Great. Castrol is good oil. I used it for years.

Originally Posted By: Trav
My little Honda CB Seven Fifty i bought new in 1993 as an around town bike has had the same RS 10w60 oil for the last 20 yrs (yearly OCI), it now has almost 100K on the clock and it runs like a Swiss watch. I know it never had any additives in it because i still own it and no one has ever ridden it or worked on it but me.

Doubly great.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Its not uncommon to see old MB 200 and 240D W123 cars with more than a million KM and never used any sort of additive.

Yup, I've seen this, too. Of course, Mercedes Benz builds reasonably good automobiles and diesel engines start out life with a few extra things going for them.

Originally Posted By: Trav
How is this possible without these miracles in a can? Sorry i don't buy it, nothing i have seen proves an engine needs these wonder to live a extremely long and trouble free life. If people want to use them thats fine by me i could care less, its not my engine or my money. I do wonder how much money gets spent on this stuff and what real benefits do these products have that a high quality engine oil alone doesn't have.

High quality oil is a great idea. Everyone should use it. Do you consider 'high quality oil' a miracle in a can?

You've made this argument before but what's the point? Sure, most folks who've worked around automobiles have seen very high mileage engines that act like they're going to run forever. Back in the 70's, I owned a Datsun 510 wagon which had 250,000 miles on the clock. Sold it to a friend who drove another 180k miles when it was finally totaled in a wreck. Should everyone buy a Datsun? Should everyone buy a Mercedes? Incidentally, the Datsun L-16 engine was a rip of a Mercedes design, so maybe the 'M word' is the key?

Most engines don't last forever. They might last 100,000 miles, or maybe even more miles, but eventually they start wearing out, or using oil or losing compression or whatever. Many times, those issues occur well before the first century. That's why repair shops and dealer shops stay in business. If you really want to know how long an engine is expected to last, simply look at the manufacturer's warranty period.

Subarus are great quality vehicles, well designed and usually well maintained (the Subaru maintenance program is ultra conservative). But if you follow any Subaru forum, there are plenty of owners who have problems with their vehicles. They start using oil. They develop a bad cylinder. Seals get flaky. Various parts fail prematurely. For at least for some of these issues, an additive might help.

In your situation, you did not need a miracle in a can, because the fine folks at Castrol included the miracle in their oil. You might consider that before making a blanket condemnation of additives.
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#3366529 - 05/09/14 11:02 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: dave5358]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 10425
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: dave5358
in your situation, you did not need a miracle in a can, because the fine folks at Castrol included the miracle in their oil. You might consider that before making a blanket condemnation of additives.

Have you considered that most if not all quality oils have the same "miracle" in their oils also especially today. This was over 20 yrs ago.
I have nothing against additives which you would know if you were here longer.
There are situations that they may be of some benefit but in a new engine (that does not have any inherent design issues that cause sludge or deposits) with proper maintenance from day one no way.

Originally Posted By: dave5358
If you really want to know how long an engine is expected to last, simply look at the manufacturer's warranty period.

Any idea what the warranty was on the MB, BMW, VW/Audi, Porsche, etc sold in Germany was in the 80's?
1 yr 12,000 Km. Today its only 2 or 3 yrs in Germany. I guess they couldn't be very good cars. LOL
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#3366566 - 05/09/14 11:38 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Trav]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave5358
in your situation, you did not need a miracle in a can, because the fine folks at Castrol included the miracle in their oil. You might consider that before making a blanket condemnation of additives.

Have you considered that most if not all quality oils have the same "miracle" in their oils also especially today.

Maybe, maybe not. If you do even a cursory glance over the additive packages in many popular oils, about all you can conclude is that you can't conclude anything. They are all over the landscape.

Originally Posted By: Trav
I have nothing against additives which you would know if you were here longer. There are situations that they may be of some benefit but in a new engine (that does not have any inherent design issues that cause sludge or deposits) with proper maintenance from day one no way.

Conclusion: we should all 1) drive a Mercedes or 2) have a new engine or 3) have an engine that does not have any inherent design issues, etc and 4) use Castrol Oil. If everyone did fit into one or more of those categories, there would be far fewer debates - everyone would die of old age before their engine got flaky. In the real world, you have simply assumed away the problem.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave5358
If you really want to know how long an engine is expected to last, simply look at the manufacturer's warranty period.

Any idea what the warranty was on the MB, BMW, VW/Audi, Porsche, etc sold in Germany was in the 80's? 1 yr 12,000 Km. Today its only 2 or 3 yrs in Germany. I guess they couldn't be very good cars.

Manufacturer's give the shortest warranty they think they can get away with and still be competitive. I'll stand by my statement. I am truly impressed with Mercedes quality, but much less impressed with the other badges you listed. Advertising hype aside, they're just good cars, but mostly overrated quality-wise.
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#3366691 - 05/09/14 01:21 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Trav]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trav
Have you considered that most if not all quality oils have the same "miracle" in their oils also especially today. This was over 20 yrs ago. I have nothing against additives <snip>

What this argument boils down to is... trust the advertising hype of the oil makers. You are welcome to do that. As for me, I think the oil companies are in business to maximize profits. If, along the way, they happen to make a decent product, that's great, but it is clearly not their primary objective. Furthermore, oil companies, like cigarette makers, know that advertising dollars are much more effective in molding public opinion of their product than dollars spent on research and development. If you don't understand that, you are simply naive.

Originally Posted By: Trav
which you would know if you were here longer.

That is certainly relevant

Originally Posted By: Trav
... a new engine (that does not have any inherent design issues that cause sludge or deposits) with proper maintenance from day one no way.

I previously suggested you were assuming away the problem. But it's worse than that. Every engine has design flaws. If you have any doubts, just wait a year or so for the car maker to come out with a newer engine version which 'fixes' the known flaws. Subaru must have had a truckload of design flaws in their 4-cylinder boxer engine, because the list of modifications and improvements over the years is amazing.

The next time you buy a car, be sure to ask the car salesman if the vehicle of interest has any 'design flaws'.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Any idea what the warranty was on the MB, BMW, VW/Audi, Porsche, etc sold in Germany was in the 80's?
1 yr 12,000 Km. Today its only 2 or 3 yrs in Germany. I guess they couldn't be very good cars.

It's actually offensive to put Mercedes and VW in the same sentence, while discussing quality. If you want a quality car (well engineered, easy to maintain, last a long time, etc.), get a Toyota or Nissan or Honda.. Even Subaru made this 'best new cars' list... not bad considering the design flaws in the engine.

Or, here's an independent look at best and worst car values. BMW made this list... guess in which category? As for Auto Union, they are an interesting company which has also discovered the power of advertising.

Volkswagen made economy cars for the masses - good cars, mind you, considering their objective. Then, the VW folks started an advertising campaign to change their image. It's been very effective, but a Toyota or Nissan is better designed and better built and a better value - no real comparison. To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, 'I knew Mercedes Benz, and Volkswagen, you're no Mercedes Benz'.

If you truly believes the oil companies (or car companies) have your best interests at heart, I wish you well. I prefer to take advertising hype with a bit of skepticism.
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#3366832 - 05/09/14 03:28 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: dave5358]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 10425
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
But you will buy into the advertising hype of Liqui Moly or some other additive company correct?
Do i have to mention Phaeton, A8, 911, M cars, Rolls Royce, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Bentley? You need to learn the product line up and a little more about what your talking about before trying to pass off such nonsense.
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#3366849 - 05/09/14 03:44 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Trav]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trav
But you will buy into the advertising hype of Liqui Moly or some other additive company correct?

No, I'm not interested in the company's advertising. Some of their products, maybe. Where do they advertise, anyway?

Originally Posted By: Trav
Do i have to mention Phaeton, A8, 911, M cars, Rolls Royce, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Bentley? You need to learn the product line up and a little more about what your talking about before trying to pass off such nonsense.

Blah, blah. What's your point? Maybe we should all drive a Rolls or Bugatti? Rolls/Bentley are certainly good quality but hardly pinnacles of automotive engineering. Rolls Royce (the aircraft engine company) was one of the first to use MoS2 as an oil additive. They even recommended upper cylinder lubricant for some of their vehicles. The 911 Porsche is a glorified Volkswagen - fun to drive, really nifty car, hard to work on, but still basically a Volkswagen. Maybe you should stop name dropping and try to make a coherent point, as you pass off such nonsense.
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2008 Corolla LE

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#3366891 - 05/09/14 04:39 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: dave5358]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 10425
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Don't waste my time, i get paid for it. LOL
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#3366998 - 05/09/14 06:22 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3425
Loc: SE PA
More to the point, what perceived problem are you trying to fix?

What do you think oil formulators left out?
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#3367014 - 05/09/14 06:49 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Bill in Utah]
dailydriver Offline


Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 7212
Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Just say no.

Not needed and all its purpose is to separate your $$$ from you.

Bill


Funny, THIS^^^ is my stance on; booze, cancer sticks, recreational drugs (and most prescribed ones as well), and gambling (BOTH the handing it directly to Tony Soprano casino type, AND the Wall Street Gordon Gekko type), which ironically, are absolute necessities of life to very many on here, many of whom will dis and rag on ANY AND ALL oil additives every chance they get. wink
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#3367144 - 05/09/14 09:25 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: dailydriver]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3425
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Just say no.

Not needed and all its purpose is to separate your $$$ from you.

Bill


Funny, THIS^^^ is my stance on; booze, cancer sticks, recreational drugs (and most prescribed ones as well), and gambling (BOTH the handing it directly to Tony Soprano casino type, AND the Wall Street Gordon Gekko type), which ironically, are absolute necessities of life to very many on here, many of whom will dis and rag on ANY AND ALL oil additives every chance they get. wink


Heh. grin

What I find funny is that one is *required* to use a product to have an opinion on it. Even though one can read information in various threads, websites, etc. The Synlube lube 4 Life crowd had the same "you don't use it so you're not allowed to express an opinion." blather.






Edited by Trajan (05/09/14 09:27 PM)
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#3367442 - 05/10/14 09:36 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
lockguy Offline


Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 142
Loc: Arkansas
Im not even sure this is a question of durability, prevention of wear or fixing a problem. Cars running on motorcraft oil go forever with little to no wear.

Im not sure what the oil manufacturers left out but I noticed real world difference in fuel efficiency. Thats enough for me. Whether it helps the engine go another 100k or not, I don't know and it probably doesn't matter in the end. I may sell the vehicle eventually anyway. Im saving money at the pump...
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2010 Ford Transit Connect 175K
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#3367527 - 05/10/14 11:40 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
GaleHawkins Offline


Registered: 01/06/14
Posts: 361
Loc: Murray KY USA
Remarks only requires access to a forum and ability to make a post.

To test Ceratec for personal use we patched up a blown engine due to a blown oil cooler line and ran it for one million revolutions with a chewed up crankshaft connecting rod surface using a good used connecting rod and new standard size rod insert due to damage from the spinning rod bearing due to no motor oil.

Our results are posted in this thread.

While we all know synthetic motor oil does NOT add more functional engine life than Dino oil many of us prefer to use synthetic if for only emotional reasons. I agree the use of products like Ceratec, Arch oil AR9300, etc may be a waste of money as is synthetic oil.

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#3367535 - 05/10/14 11:51 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: GaleHawkins]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
Our results are posted in this thread.

The thread link didn't come through. Would you post/re-post it? Thanks.
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2008 Corolla LE

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#3367579 - 05/10/14 12:59 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Trav]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Earlier in this thread, I opined that if you really want to know how long an engine is expected to last, simply look at the manufacturer's warranty period. Trav responded:

Originally Posted By: Trav
Any idea what the warranty was on the MB, BMW, VW/Audi, Porsche, etc sold in Germany was in the 80's? 1 yr 12,000 Km. Today its only 2 or 3 yrs in Germany. I guess they couldn't be very good cars.

Trav was exactly correct, although it rather proves my point. There were similar short warranties in the US. Today, US warranties are much longer - perhaps 5-years on the power train. This could be because the cars are better built or perhaps the car maker's unwavering concern for the consumer, but the most likely reason is legal.

In 1963, the US passed the Clean Air Act, which was extensively amended in 1970, plus other amendments. By 1995, this law required vehicles sold in the US to meet certain clean air standards. It further required that the vehicle warranty must cover failure of an emission's test in the first 2 years/24,000 miles (the 'performance warranty) and that specified emission components and systems must last for 8 years/80,000 miles (the 'Design and Defect Warranty').

Auto makers were left in a peculiar position: they had to comply with the law regarding the emission/components warranty, but if they did so and still only offered only a 1- or 2-year vehicle warranty (or power train warranty), it did not send a particularly flattering message about their product. Furthermore, if you did have a power train failure, you might be able to convince a jury that this failure should be covered by the emission/component part of the Clean Air Act warranty. This situation was worse than oil which turns black.

Most vehicle makers got in line and offered longer warranties, at least on the power train - 5-years or more in some cases. Perhaps the vehicles were really better quality, perhaps not. Technology had also progressed or at least evolved.

Originally Posted By: Trav
I guess they [German cars] couldn't be very good cars.

That's a complicated statement, probably meant to be sarcastic. Mercedes-Benz/Daimler Benz builds very good cars - perhaps the best automobiles in the world - as befits the company that invented the automobile. Mercedes are also very expensive, so comparisons to lesser vehicles is problematic.

As for the the other German car makers ["BMW, VW/Audi, Porsche, etc"] their reputation for quality probably exceeds reality. If you look at independent tests for reliability, quality, whatever, none of these marques get particularly high marks. Over the years, I've personally owned and serviced 3 water-cooled VWs and my personal experience was that they were interesting cars and fun to drive but not super reliable. I've worked on BMWs in the shop and neither I nor any of the other mechanics thought their quality was even close to that of Mercedes. Nice cars, yes! High quality, not so much. Back then, Audi was a ho-hum brand - they've burnished their reputation in recent years, mostly through advertising.

In fact, each of these German companies has an extensive advertising campaign to improve their 'quality' image. These programs include racing sponsorship and/or racing teams using their own vehicles. It is not exactly clear if this technology or expertise transfers to a more reliable or long-lived vehicle. Ford Motor Company also fielded a moderately successful Formula-1 racing team some years ago, but it contributed little to Ford's 'quality' reputation.

I am not suggesting that any of these German cars are not nice cars to own, not fun to drive, or anything remotely like that. But if you want reliability, low maintenance and long vehicle life, buy a Toyota.
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#3367590 - 05/10/14 01:15 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
Sam2000 Offline


Registered: 03/25/14
Posts: 400
Loc: Nevada
Look at the CPO warranties.

Mercedes just went unlimited from 100k.

But all CPO warranties are way beyond initial mileage. It's almost as if they think their new cars could go wrong but once they have survived a year or three and they pass an inspection, they are more confident.

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