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#3351334 - 04/23/14 06:38 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Vikas]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If Ceratec is a coating, why is it needed on new engine? Not only it is not needed, would it not lead to more problems? Think what coating is trying to do. It is trying to reduce the clearance between the cylinder bore and piston rings. If the engine is new, is the reduction advisable?

Additives in new engine seems counter productive and might lead to problems rather than solving any non-existent issues. It is like throwing unneeded antibiotic at a body. It will only do harm.

I don't think it is much of a coating as we think a coating should be like chrome or plasma or hard moly coating on rings.

I think its works on a micro level that would be hardly measurable even with a very accurate micrometer. That is not my concern, my concern is drop out.
I see it posted that these products stay mixed but my compressor says otherwise. I can see in the sump through a small glass, the Ceratec is in the corners of the sump and not mixed.
How much i cant say without tearing it apart which i am not going to do but some did definitely fall out of suspension.

I have no real interest in these products anymore, if people want to use them its their thing but as far as putting solids into the oil its not for me.
IMHO oils have gotten so good in the last few years they don't need any sort of "boost", back in the day i believe there was a place for them as the oils were junk in comparison.
I have an unopened bottle of this stuff here and am not comfortable putting it in anything.

I am not knocking the product or the company, its just my 2c.
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#3351859 - 04/24/14 10:46 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8232
Loc: NorthEast
Does the oil get hot in your compressor? I wonder if the oil needs to be hot for these additives to actually mix with the oil. But what if they separate once the oil temperature drops? That is not good either.

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#3351879 - 04/24/14 11:09 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Vikas]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Does the oil get hot in your compressor? I wonder if the oil needs to be hot for these additives to actually mix with the oil. But what if they separate once the oil temperature drops? That is not good either.


That's a good question, I wonder what their response would be to Trav's observations.
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#3351888 - 04/24/14 11:25 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Vikas]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
The oil seems to get hot enough if i run it up from empty and really use it with high flow tools. Hot enough for any sort of a bonding, i have no idea.
My cars don't get used very much and sit all winter or all summer so drop out is a serious concern for me. Maybe on a daily driver its a non issue but i wouldn't put money on it.
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#3351892 - 04/24/14 11:32 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
gman2304 Offline


Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 732
Loc: n.c.
I bought two bottles of Ceratec this week at a nearby NAPA warehouse for $12.00!!! I think the counter guy made a mistake...in fact I told him I didn't think the price was right. He looked at his computer and said the price was right. They had only two bottles on the rack and I bought both. I'll add the Ceratec at the next oil changes on my two vehicles. Both vehicles have a 6 qt sump...i'm thinking 1 bottle in each will be close to the recommended 6%.


Edited by gman2304 (04/24/14 11:33 AM)

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#3352034 - 04/24/14 02:41 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8232
Loc: NorthEast
what is the NAPA part number on your receipt?

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#3352302 - 04/24/14 09:03 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
gman2304 Offline


Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 732
Loc: n.c.
The counter guy typed in the number on the bar code label off the box of Ceratec. I'll try to find the receipt...but our trash pick up was yesterday.

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#3353483 - 04/25/14 11:45 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Vikas]
GaleHawkins Offline


Registered: 01/06/14
Posts: 347
Loc: Murray KY USA
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If Ceratec is a coating, why is it needed on new engine? Not only it is not needed, would it not lead to more problems? Think what coating is trying to do. It is trying to reduce the clearance between the cylinder bore and piston rings. If the engine is new, is the reduction advisable?

Additives in new engine seems counter productive and might lead to problems rather than solving any non-existent issues. It is like throwing unneeded antibiotic at a body. It will only do harm.


As Jtrans5 noted the dry start up is not really possible due to the hard coating. We are not talking build up that can measurably add to thickness. The place where the build up helps the most on the 325 Polaris aluminum head based on visual at tear down was the ceramic layer on the aluminum cam shaft bearings surface. That top aluminum bearing surface in any engine is as risk of a 'dry' start so if Ceratec coats those services how could it be a bad thing. Liqui Moly is not snake oil company I think most will agree.

Just from science I would not want competing coating chemicals trying to fight it out for bare metal parts at the same time. I could even see driving a few hundred miles on a new oil change before adding the Ceratec so the new detergent has cleaned the metal bearing surfaces very well.

Actually if anyone has some research on HOW and when one gets the coating build up when using something like Ceratec or Archoil AR 9300 I would like a link. I know from tearing down the 325 Polaris engine after 11 hours of idle time (had a chewed up crank from being ran without oil) and we just replaced the rod inserts and went with a used connecting rod. I had just learned about Ceratec and this blown ATV engine was just a perfect test bed.The parts cost was just $100 including the gasket kit.

I know without a doubt Ceratec works as Liquid Moly states it works. I know of no reason to not use it in a new engine because ceramic coated piston rings and pistons are sometimes placed in new engines.

If you have an engine that has rings that have to 'wear-in' due to friction you have a low quality finish on moving parts and must be using an old non-detergent stash of motor oil. smile

With that being said I would put 100-2000 miles on a new engine then change oil and add Ceratec to the new motor oil. This would let the moving parts like oil pump gears, gears, etc 'wear-in' and you could drain out any new engine metal.

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#3361762 - 05/04/14 07:26 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
lockguy Offline


Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 142
Loc: Arkansas
Reading all of the comments about the ceratec, i think i would be a little scared to use that stuff. Just seems a little risky. Im not sure how long people normally keep a car but why bother? Engines have been running hundreds of thousands of miles with little to no wear given proper service for the quality of lube/filter used. If someone thinks they are going to keep a vehicle for a million plus miles, might be worth it. But after so many miles, most people want something new anyway.

We have a brand new pilot, couldn't imagine putting that in the brand new engine. we did get a lifetime power-train warranty anyway. I might consider using mos2 sometime down the road for fuel efficiency.

I use the mos2 in my service van purely for fuel efficiency and I did notice enough of an improvement to keep using it.

Because of the rash of filter tears, I'm thinking of going m1ep with a fram ultra or bosch distance, then running 12k oci. Would mos2 be beneficial in this setting?
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#3361884 - 05/04/14 09:00 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: TechnoLoGs]
147_Grain Offline


Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 1312
Loc: USA
So you will use MoS2, but are "scared" to use Cera Tec, which is Liqui Moly's best friction modifier?

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#3361927 - 05/04/14 09:48 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: 147_Grain]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
So you will use MoS2, but are "scared" to use Cera Tec, which is Liqui Moly's best friction modifier?


He's not the only person thinking along those lines. There was talk that the Nano particles used in Ceratec find their way into the combustion chamber and can foul plugs, and or collect on them. I personally haven't tried the product so I can't confirm nor deny it, but it is scattered about the www. There are no reports of MoS2 doing it.
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#3365323 - 05/08/14 08:43 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: demarpaint]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
So you will use MoS2, but are "scared" to use Cera Tec, which is Liqui Moly's best friction modifier?


He's not the only person thinking along those lines. There was talk that the Nano particles used in Ceratec find their way into the combustion chamber and can foul plugs, and or collect on them. I personally haven't tried the product so I can't confirm nor deny it, but it is scattered about the www. There are no reports of MoS2 doing it.


Thats could be a real concern if the engine is using oil or used on high speed roads where increased oil consumption is normal.
I have a few problems with these types of additives today. Go back to the 70's and 80's when LM MoS2 was a popular additive in Germany.
It helped because to put it bluntly the oils available were garbage by todays standards. IIRC LM used it in most if not all of their engine oils at that time.

Today they don't even use it in most of their their oils and correct me if i am wrong not at all in the high end oils.
Why is that? I don't have an answer but to me its a valid question, could it be they have other additives available that perform the same function better?

It just seems strange to me that the company that makes this MoS2 and white graphite concoction does not use it in the engine oils they also formulate and produce.
The other issues have to do with fall out which fo me is a real concern as my vehicles don't get much use and sit either all winter or all summer.

There seems to be a communications problem with LM. Members are getting different answers to the same question regarding use of the product.
Their reps don't seem to be on the same sheet of music, they are all singing a different tune.

Not a bash on LM they have a good reputation and i never heard of any of their product doing damage.
I did use MoS2 for years but now i question its value with todays superior engine oils and lubricants.
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#3365335 - 05/08/14 08:54 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Trav]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
So you will use MoS2, but are "scared" to use Cera Tec, which is Liqui Moly's best friction modifier?


He's not the only person thinking along those lines. There was talk that the Nano particles used in Ceratec find their way into the combustion chamber and can foul plugs, and or collect on them. I personally haven't tried the product so I can't confirm nor deny it, but it is scattered about the www. There are no reports of MoS2 doing it.


Thats could be a real concern if the engine is using oil or used on high speed roads where increased oil consumption is normal.
I have a few problems with these types of additives today. Go back to the 70's and 80's when LM MoS2 was a popular additive in Germany.
It helped because to put it bluntly the oils available were garbage by todays standards. IIRC LM used it in most if not all of their engine oils at that time.

Today they don't even use it in most of their their oils and correct me if i am wrong not at all in the high end oils.
Why is that? I don't have an answer but to me its a valid question, could it be they have other additives available that perform the same function better?

It just seems strange to me that the company that makes this MoS2 and white graphite concoction does not use it in the engine oils they also formulate and produce.
The other issues have to do with fall out which fo me is a real concern as my vehicles don't get much use and sit either all winter or all summer.

There seems to be a communications problem with LM. Members are getting different answers to the same question regarding use of the product.
Their reps don't seem to be on the same sheet of music, they are all singing a different tune.

Not a bash on LM they have a good reputation and i never heard of any of their product doing damage.
I did use MoS2 for years but now i question its value with todays superior engine oils and lubricants.




As usual you're SPOT ON!!!!!
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GOD Bless our Troops


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#3365478 - 05/08/14 11:35 AM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: Trav]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trav
Thats could be a real concern if the engine is using oil or used on high speed roads where increased oil consumption is normal. I have a few problems with these types of additives [referring to Ceratec] today. Go back to the 70's and 80's when LM MoS2 was a popular additive in Germany. It helped because to put it bluntly the oils available were garbage by todays standards. IIRC LM used it in most if not all of their engine oils at that time.

Good point. Some motor oils in the 70's and 80's were not so good. Adding MoS2 reduced parasitic heat losses, tended to fortify the oils, and provided EP lubrication if the oil actually failed. Furthermore, air-cooled engines were popular during that period and they were very hard on oil. The hotter the engine, the more likely the oil would fail, which resulted in even more engine heat. And you couldn't count on the thermostat to save you.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Today they don't even use it in most of their their oils and correct me if i am wrong not at all in the high end oils.

That is not as clear. If you check Liqui-Moly's product line, MoS2 is used in several of their high-end products. Furthermore, organic molybdenum is available and widely used by L-M and many other oil makers. The benefits of organic molybdenum are somewhat different, but at the very least it should reduce parasitic heat losses and provide some barrier protection. It is a thinner layer, so it may not provide start-up or 'limp home' protection.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Why is that? I don't have an answer but to me its a valid question, could it be they have other additives available that perform the same function better?

Yes, other additives. Plus, MoS2 turns your oil black. From a marketing standpoint, that's probably not a good thing. Plus, MoS2 may settle out of the oil, depending on the particle size. Walmart customers cannot be depended upon to 'shake well before using'.

Plus, if you were an oil company, would you really want to be advertising 'limp home' protection? When some guy runs his engine out of oil (maybe from taking a bullet, but most likely from poor or no maintenance), you probably want to distance yourself from this situation.

Originally Posted By: Trav
It just seems strange to me that the company that makes this MoS2 and white graphite concoction does not use it in the engine oils they also formulate and produce.

White graphite?????

Originally Posted By: Trav
The other issues have to do with fall out which fo me is a real concern as my vehicles don't get much use and sit either all winter or all summer.

By 'fall out', you are referring to settling, right? If the particles are fine enough, there should be little settling. Furthermore, MoS2 attaches itself to the metal surfaces after a period of time (say, 500 miles). Once attached, it will no longer settle out. Furthermore, it should provide excellent start-up lubrication on an engine which sits idle for long periods (MoS2 is a very popular dry lubricant and assembly lube).

Originally Posted By: Trav
There seems to be a communications problem with LM. Members are getting different answers to the same question regarding use of the product. Their reps don't seem to be on the same sheet of music, they are all singing a different tune. Not a bash on LM they have a good reputation and i never heard of any of their product doing damage. I did use MoS2 for years but now i question its value with todays superior engine oils and lubricants.

Oils have gotten a bit better. MoS2 may have gotten better as well. It still provides superior EP protection (probably better than any liquid lubricant), still provides superior start-up lubrication, still reduces oil consumption by attaching itself to metal bearing surfaces. That's not too bad, all things considered. And, it still provides limp-home protection (if you take a bullet).

MoS2 may or may not be cost effective. If you were a fleet operator and could extend the OCI by 5%, that would be great. To an individual, a small OCI increase is not significant. If you plan to keep your vehicle (or at least the engine ;-) for 200,000 or 300,000 miles, MoS2 is the way to fly. But, most folks don't keep their car that long, and most modern engines will last 100k or more with very modest care.
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#3365964 - 05/08/14 07:59 PM Re: What does Liqui-Moly CERATEC do? [Re: dave5358]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: dave5358
White graphite?????

Hexagonal Boron Nitride AKA white graphite.

I have owned an engine that went 260K Km on one brand and viscosity of engine oil from the first oil change. No additives other than what was in the Castrol RS 10w60 (the red oil).
No part was out of OEM new spec tolerances (checked with Starrett inside and outside micrometers not Plastigauge), no sludge, no varnish, nothing. The cam chain stretched thats why i had it torn down.

This engine routinely (daily) saw 9-12K RPM and 7-9K sustained RPM for hundreds of Km in the 12 years that i owned it. The bike is still running strong with the new owner, same oil and over 300K and 20 yrs old in 2012.
My little Honda CB Seven Fifty i bought new in 1993 as an around town bike has had the same RS 10w60 oil for the last 20 yrs (yearly OCI), it now has almost 100K on the clock and it runs like a Swiss watch.
I know it never had any additives in it because i still own it and no one has ever ridden it or worked on it but me.
BTW none of these use any measurable amount oil between OC.

Its not uncommon to see old MB 200 and 240D W123 cars with more than a million KM and never used any sort of additive.
How is this possible without these miracles in a can? Sorry i don't buy it, nothing i have seen proves an engine needs these wonder to live a extremely long and trouble free life.

If people want to use them thats fine by me i could care less, its not my engine or my money.
I do wonder how much money gets spent on this stuff and what real benefits do these products have that a high quality engine oil alone doesn't have.

http://sandblastingabrasives.com/hexagonal-boron-nitride-powder-order-page-781.html
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