Stay the course, or??

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Also posted this ont he auto-rx forum. Frank has recommended an abbreviated program. Thought I'd post it here to get inputs on the symptoms I'm experiencing and alternative approaches if ARX doesn't work.

Recently picked up a '77 Ford F150 with a big honkin 460 4bbl with 170K original miles. Only engine work is water pump, timing chain and valve stem seals. Owner said 3K oil changes using 20w50 the whole life. Drove it home (75 miles) no problems and after a week in my driveway had all of 2 or maybe three drops of oil from the RMS.

Did a foolish thing and changed the oil to 5w30 Mobile 1. Within 200 miles she was leaking like a seeve. The rumors and discussions I heard over the years came true on this high mileage vehicle. After doing lots of research, landed on this Auto-Rx approach to clean this engine up and hopefully stop the leak. Here's where I'm at and the issues I'm facing:

I swear there was no engine based knocking on my test drive. I switched out everything to Rotella 15w40 dino plus Auto-Rx. But now I have a tak-a-tak-a-tak sound when engine is cold and under light to medium load (throttle). Not a top end tick sound from valve train. I'm thinking worse case is rod knock, buttttttt, it gets less after full engine warm up and under med->heavy load/throttle you can't hear it at all. My understanding is that rod knocks usually get worse as engine warms up or at best doesn't go away. I've read some symptoms of piston slap - maybe a carbon ring buildup in cylinder bore that's making contact with cold engine? Any expert opinions here? Ran a bottle of Techron to help clean out the very dirty Holley carb (definitely running too rich as tail pipes very black/sooty. Set the jets, and float levels. Measure manifold vacuum and very pleased with a steady 18.9"!).

I now have 500 miles on the treatment and have already lost 1 quart of oil! Oil pressure: not bad with this well used engine (farm vehicle plus some heavy machinery hauling in its past). Don't have mechanical gauge to measure, but good high needle reading at startup/cold. Was low when hot and sitting at idle. However, it looks like the oil pressure is slightly better after 500 miles with the ARX treatment - needle doesn't drop quite as low when hot/idle, etc? Could this be a result of ARX and at this mileage?

Another issue/question/concern is that I only put 8 to 10 miles per day on the truck. That means 5 to 6 months before I finish my first 1500 mile cleaning step. Based on the seal leak instructions/program I'm following, I need to go 2K miles on next step for rinse, then another cleaning step for 1K miles, then a 2K-2.5K final rinse step. At my daily mileage this will take 6.5K-7K total miles which for me could be 1.75 to 2 years to complete. I don't plan on even owning this truck that long (working on restoring a '66 F100 CC/CS). So, questions are will ARX work at this slow of pace? Do I need to modify process? I really don't want to continue with 1 quart of lost oil every 500 miles! What do I do if I need to sell this truck before full completion of 10 step program - other additives or throw in a HM oil and hope for the best?

Pretty discouraged at this point - maybe just need a pep talk ?

Thanks,
daggerNC

'66 F100 CC/CS 390 Auto
'77 F150 Ranger 460 Auto
 
I agree with deepsquat about lifters.
I've read several accounts on here of people using AutoRX, and within approx the first 500 miles, suspected engine noises and even some seal leaks increase. But in every case I've read about this, I remember specifically that it is temporary. It is just the AutoRX beginning its cleaning, and the seals' newly exposed surfaces haven't swollen back to original form yet.
As for the mileage issue, dang I wish I had you're problem. But I can see your dilemna. Would it be feasible for you to take several longer trips through the week? Take that 460 out and work her a little bit. Of course your wallet may take a huge hit for the gas you'll go through.
To pinpoint the "knock", you could use a mechanic's stethoscope or even a piece of heater hose to your ear and probe around. A mechanic's stethoscope is great for pinpointing noises like this (will even let you pinpoint one noisy lifter). Of course, watch for moving parts, like your fan and accessories. Once you find the source area, you can make a better informed decision on your next course of action.

Hope this helps.

Dave
 
daggerNC,

It is not the time for Auto-Rx to work it is the miles driven be patient.Frank recommended the abbreviated program stay with it good luck.

Daryl
 
170,000 is a LOT of miles for a farm based truck. I wonder if they could have bent a pushrod when the cam chain failed?
 
quote:

maybe just need a pep talk ?

Hang in there tiger, it'll be OK.
smile.gif
 
deepsquat and Dave - it would be nice to have it a lifter noise, but the sound is more tak-a-tak-a-tak versus tic-tic-tic-tic which to my ears sounds more "robust" of a sound meaning more mass invovled and thus on the lower end of the engine. But, I can't use the stethoscope diagnostic because at idle or reving in neutral, no noise at all. Again if lifter I would think it would be heard at idle. But I'm still holding out with some hope as it wasn't there when I brought her home and under certain conditions it lessens or nearly goes away.... Also, I would think a bent pushrod would make a noise while running in the driveway.

I will definitely stick to the abbreviated pgm Frank suggested, and btw Frank has been most supportive (thanks again). And thanks to porcupine - that's what I needed to hear
smile.gif
.
 
daggerNC Could that "tak a tak a tak" sound be a leaky exhaust manifold gasket? This type of problem can get better as the manifold expands from heating up. Just a thought. Also when your auto RX treatment is finished maybe try a thicker oil again and if that quitens the noise then it's probably internal. Good luck. Rickey.
 
Thanks Rickey - I do believe I have a small exhaust leak - still has the original exhaust pipe off the manifold on it. As well, the last bolt on the left exhaust manifold is gone - appears to have been broken off 3/4" inside the manifold (!). But, those I've heard before are more of a tic-a-tic-a sound. Usually you can hear it at idle or while revving the engine. The tack-a-tack-a sound can only be heard while engine is under load on the road.

Thanks,
daggerNC
 
Any chance the 20W50 that was originally in there was masking the sound? Or there were other additives that were masking it?

I also think it would be a good idea to get this truck out and run it for a few ~100 mile runs to speed up the process.
 
give the ARX a chance to work, you have nothing to lose and only $25 invested...
take the old worn out girl for a freeway run a 60 mph for 20 miles once a week as a treat....those old 460's just love to run...will give the ARX a chance to work

that old hard worked girl will burn 1 qt per 500 normally....add some MMO or Rislone to the gas tank for top cylinder oil...good for those large ring packs

switch over to 15w40 or 20w50 dyno HDEO for your add oil...Delo in the gallons is cheap on sale

don't know of an old worn out 460 farm PU truck engine that doesn't make strange noises

get the rich running problem solved asap...fuel dilution will kill your gearings and the ARX

put a pan under her in the driveway, she'll last another 100k, this is NOT some high tech Euro engine
front and rear seals are easy to change on these big blocks

don't waste Mobil 1 on this old girl, use a good HDEO....these old large displacement big block Fords have so much ring blowby into crankcase with oil contamination that Mobil 1 would be like black molasses mixed with sand after a 10k mile OCI
ride her hard and park her hot....

[ March 02, 2006, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Steelhead ]
 
michael - I specifically asked the previous owner if there was any additives in there. He said never added any.

Steelhead - thanks... Frank from ARX also says the HDEO oil is OK to use. However, that freeway run once a week will cost me an extra $10/wk after I get there and back
smile.gif
I have the cardboard box with newspaper under her now. Just really bugs me that there was so little RMS leak until I ran M1 for just 100 miles! I do need to work the rich fuel problem - it's running better, but looks like I need a full day to do a rebuild (who's got a full day anymore with kids and Honey-Do lists and work these days?).

I like it - "ride her hard and park her hot"....
 
You're not kidding about those 460s costing money. I had a '77 LTD when I was in high school in 1991 and some days I lost money driving to work because of my 8 miles to the gallon.
 
but I bet when you got in to her and let that 460 open up. you forgot about losing money and had a big smile on your face
biggthumbcoffe.gif
 
Don't blame the M1 for the leak. You had one already, but going from a 20w-50 conventional to a 5w-30 full synthetic (on a dirty high mileage engine) is only going to exploit and magnify it.

The ticking is absolutely from a lifter. It happens frequently on these engines. There is some marginal adjustment in the rocker studs, but consider that only after cleaning the valvetrain and confirming that a lifter has not collapsed. Otherwise, you can wind up with a bent push rod and/or valve damage.

Double ARX the thing, don't worry about the sounds and leaks along the way, then use the 15w-40 HDEO of your choice. If the leaks stop after that, only then should you consider a full synthetic 15w-50. This is not a 5w-30 engine.

The RMS on the 429/460 block is prone to leaking, but is not as bad to fix as some others. The early pre-EPA ones ('68-'71) were the best performers. The best mileage I was ever able to squeeze out of one (a '68 429) was just under 20mpg/highway with a very well tuned ignition, on 20w-50 Kendall GT-1 (when it was green and good).
 
Volvohead - well, then why when I got it and parked it in the driveway for a week that I had all of 2 or 3 drops on the driveway. After just 100 miles of M1 and then switching back to 15w40 dino (with ARX) is it still saturating a newspaper in one week?

I believe the only adjustment on these 429/460's to the lifters is a static torque setting. But, would be very cool if "only" a lifter issue. Will try a shortened rinse phase with my leftover Rotella T HDEO and then do another ARX treatment as per Prank's instructions.

Just under 20mpg is amazing unless it was heading east from the Rockies and coasting half the way
smile.gif
My last tank was 10.6mpg and the best the previous owner got was 13.5 on the highway.

Cheers and thanks,
daggerNC
 
quote:

Originally posted by Dark Jedi:
but I bet when you got in to her and let that 460 open up. you forgot about losing money and had a big smile on your face
biggthumbcoffe.gif


Right before we sold her, I took her out on the highway in front of the Orange County Speedway near Hillsboro, NC. Forget the name of that road.
I put the gas down all the way for a couple miles.
Had an 85 mile an hour speedometer.
Think was pointing straight down and beginning to edge towards the left when I ran out of road and had to get on the brakes. Based on my calculations, that car was good for no more than 120 MPH or so, but that was still the fastest I've ever driven. I'll assume I was probably at 115 to 120.
All my recent cars are governed to 106 or 108, and more importantly, I've grown up. I suspect that I'll never do that again, barring a long drive to a hospital on a country road.
I miss that car. Every day. But not the 7 MPG.
 
quote:

Right before we sold her, I took her out on the highway in front of the Orange County Speedway near Hillsboro, NC. Forget the name of that road.

offtopic.gif
TomJones76, I live in Hillsborough. The road you're talking about is NC 57. I can definitely see how you can get some speed up on the road. It does have some "straightaways." I hate how those old Ford speedos stop at 85 mph, although I had only a 300 inline six in mine, which was not capable of going over 80! Those 460s sound a heck of a lot quicker.

daggerNC, my old 300 would sometimes make ticking sounds when under load, like accelerating on steep hills in high gear. These noises did quiet down somewhat when we set the timing correctly and put new spark plugs and wires on. I know the 300 is a lot different than the 460, but they're both still old Fords. I bet you've already done all of this anyway.

- RippyMan
 
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