Shell Helix Ultra Diesel 5/40 vs Helix 10/40

[Swissdieselfan]

For some reason that I don't understand, Shell do not list their Ultra Diesel 5/40 for my Volvo V40 1.9D, their oil finder lists the cheaper Helix 10/40. Both oils have the required B3/B4 approvals, so I wonder why not. It's a bit like Castrol saying use Magnetec and not Edge (They don't) as the premium diesel oil.
Anyone got any ideas why, as it's on Fleabay special at present and I'm thinking of stashing some for the end of summer OCI.

 

[Swissdieselfan]

This is the tech data sheet of Helix Ultra Diesel 5/40:
Helix Diesel

This is the tech data sheet of Helix 10/40:
Helix 10/40

The conventional 10/40 is thicker at 100c, but my type of engine can run on 5/30, so I don't think that is the reason they don't list it.

Might be my last post until next weekend, as I think Castrol and Mobil are sponsors and I'm thinking of using a Shell oil because it's cheaper where I am and I suspect just as good as the other main engine oil companies in the EU (Castrol, Mobil, Fuchs, Valvoline and Liqui Moly).

 

[miniac007]

Is it the V40 with Renault diesel engine ? If yes, Shell Ultra is listed for Renault 1.9 D engines (clio, R19, ...) in notes:

Alternative recommendations, Engine (Diesel), 2001: -30°C to >30°C, Helix Ultra 5W-40 / Helix HX7 C 5W-40; -30°C to 25°C, Helix Ultra 5W-40; -20°C to 30°C, Refer To Technical; -15°C to >30°C, B2/B3/PD2/CF 15W-40

 

[Swissdieselfan]

Thanks, but for some reason I can't find that for the phase 2 diesel. It just lists 3 different 10/40's and I prefer full synthetics at present.
Can't see what is wrong with the Ultra apart from the lower viscosity figures when compared with Castrol, Mobil or Liqui Moly synthetic diesels oils.
Interesting to see Shell quote 15K km, the same as the Castrol OCI figure. Volvo insist the max OCI is 20K km, which is pushing it for an older engine.

 

[miniac007]

For those kind of old diesel, any HDEO CI-4 will be cheaper and better anyway.

The ultra is Renault RN 0710, which was introduced in 2007 for the Laguna III.

 

[miniac007]

This is the renault/elf requirement:

ELF COMPÉTITION ST 10W-40
ou produit équivalent 10W-40 de norme RENAULT RN0700

Tous modèles Renault Essence atmosphérique (sauf Renault Sport).
Tous modèles équipés de moteur 1.5 dCi sans FAP* < 100 CV avec un intervalle de vidange de 20 000 km ou 1 an.


ELF EVOLUTION SXR 5W-40
ou produit équivalent 5W-40 de norme RENAULT RN0710


Tous modèles Renault Diesel sans FAP* (sauf 1.5 dCi < 100 CV et un intervalle de vidange de 20 000 km).
Tous modèles Renault Essence Turbo, Renault Sport.
Tous modèles équipés du moteur 2.2 dCi FAP*.

 

[Swissdieselfan]

There is no way I am putting French oil in a Volvo! Castrol, Mobil, Shell, Liqui Moly or Valvoline are all cutting prices on Fleabay and are easily available. At present Shell Ultra is the cheapest of the full synthetic diesel oils with a B3/B4 designation.

 

[miniac007]

First, you have not a volvo engine, but a Renault french engine, designed with french Elf/Total oils

Second, if you read carrefully what I wrote, you will see the Shell ultra is Renault RN 0710 and I gave you what Renault ask in term of Renault RN 0710, no matter of Elf: produit équivalent 5W-40 de norme RENAULT RN0710

Third, the cheapest is maybe the weakest

Any HDEO will be cheaper and beter

Or try Meguin or other second level brand.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2402928

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2100590&page=1

 

[Swissdieselfan]

Only the main block is from Renault, the turbo and ECU are set to give 115hp and not the 130hp the Luguna block uses. Renault are not an oil company and are bound to use Elf or Total products, Volvo just asked Castrol and recommend Edge 5/40 as a result.
I guess if I was French I might think of using Elf or Total products, but I'm a Brit living on the Swiss / German border and think both Castrol, Mobil and Shell are ahead in technical terms. The Renault spec is odd, as that is one reason why the Ultra should be listed, but it's not.
Once a car has been out of production for a while the previous oil recommendations are not so applicable as new generation oils have been developed. The performace of the major brand engine oils has improved a lot in recent years, which is why it seems odd that Shell are still listing a 10/40, when they have a better oil available. It will be interesting to see if they reply to my e mail, as it might just be their web site oil finder is out of date.

 

[miniac007]

Well, it is a Renault engine and gearbox, in a japaneese body, manufactured in Belgium, not a really full Volvo

Renault is not an oil maker, but he is working together with elf to formulate lubs, and sell Renault branded oils for PCM and HDE. It is a technical partnership

Volvo also sell branded Volvo oils with technical partnership with other oil brands.

Volvo/castrol is just a commercial agreement. Real volvo oils are sold in Volvo cans.

The correct Volvo in ACEA A3, B3, B4, SAE 5W-40 is

1l 1161 630
4l 1161 631


Be also very carefull if you want to put an other oil in a Renault manual gearbox than a ELF or Volvo oil.

The nationality of an oil brand has nothing to do with quality... Just [censored]...

Anyway, the Ultra has a poor low ash add pack, so it can explains price and why it is not so good in older engines.

Castrol is also known to sell expensive lub with poor add pack...

Synthetic or not is not a good criteria alone, just read papers of dnewton3.

I really prefer choose an oil on objective criteria, UOA + VOA, not upon nationality, color of can, or any other racist criteria... It is far better for a V40 wich is a swedish/japaneese/french hybrid

Try Meguin also which manufacture liqui moly oils... and which is less expensive...

 

[miniac007]

Meguin only give 5w40

Engine D4192T

Capacity
: FilterCap 0,6 litre
: LubeCap 5 litre

Use : Normal
Intervals : Change 15000 km / 12 months

Products : Megol Motorenoel High Condition SAE 5W-40
: Megol Motorenoel Low Emission SAE 5W-40
: Megol Motorenoel Ultra Performance Longlife SAE 5W-40
: Megol Motorenoel Super Leichtlauf SAE 5W-40 (vs)

Price here

 

[Swissdieselfan]

There is a price war going on with engine oils in the EU, so Castrol Edge and Shell Helix are not much more expensive than the other oils.
Meguin were bought by LM and seem to be busy making supermarket and bulk oils, so they don't have a great reputation for top quality products.

If you look at the BMW forum survey of UOA results that were averaged out for 5K mile OCI's Castrol are one tough act to beat, as even their GTX 5/30 produced better results than some major brand full synthetics. Just a pity they did not have enough results for a 10K mile OCI survey, as that would have been more interesting.
The only bad point about such surveys is they don't give any data on the cleaning capabilities of the oil, which I regard as very important for a turbo diesel in the long term and is one reason I prefer more expensive oils and don't push OCI limits too far.

The phase 2 V40 1.9D has a higher resale price and is much harder to find than the other older Volvo's. It also corners and handles more like a BMW than the other tanks, so Volvo did get it right in terms of choosing the best companies to supply the components. The Renault 1.9D is one tough block and de-tuning it was a real good move in long life terms.

Oddly enough the German Volvo dealers have stopped selling Volvo engine oil, they just have Edge 0/30 or 5/40, but still sell Volvo gearbox oil and coolant. Liqui Moly make a better box oil now, as the original Volvo spec was partly related to fuel economy, so it was 75/80 and not a 75/90 full synthetic.

I am basing oil decisions only on my own UOA results and started with a three OCI base line to check for trends using what might be the best oil from Germany (LM Synthoil High Tech 5/40), I have Castrol TD 5/40 in at present, but will try Mobil TD 0/40 and probably Shell Helix 5/40 later. Once I've got the figures for the top oils, I will try Fuchs 10/40 diesel oil plus half a can of LM Ceretec, as I can get the tractor oil for free (Almost every farmer in my area uses it) and it will be interesting to see how that works out.

The Castrol TD 5/40 is a C3, but I have a letter from their R&D chaps saying it is backwards compatible with a B4. Ultra is not a C3, so might have slightly more Zinc, although the Renault block is not supposed to be sensitive about Zinc levels. The present run is something of a test to see if that is true, if not I will think about trying one of the HDEO's after I have passed the emissions test this summer.

 

[miniac007]

Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
Ultra is not a C3, so might have slightly more Zinc, although the Renault block is not supposed to be sensitive about Zinc levels. The present run is something of a test to see if that is true, if not I will think about trying one of the HDEO's after I have passed the emissions test this summer.


In the URL I posted above they say the Penzoil Euro 5w40 is Shell Ultra 5w40 and you have the VOA.

Concerning Total/Elf, I never used their PCMOs, neither castrol, to much expensive. But I used their HDEO with success, as I was paying 3.8€+VAT for TIR 8600 for example, half price than PCMOs with professional discount. A friend of mine is using also them by tons, with fleet UOA guard with success on various HDEO and marine engines, in north sea and mediterranean sea. So I cannot considere those brands as bull [censored]...

For now, I decided to stay with HDEO for my cars also (I have only old cars before 96), as it is cheap and good based on UOAs. In my opinion, I prefer a supermaket Meguin/Pennasol/Total HDEO to a major brand PCMO, considering the add pack and the price...

I posted a VOA of a Pennasol 15w40 CI-4 VDS-3 with a much more rich add pack than PCMOs. It is first price mineral HDEO, but VDS-3, at the half price of PCMOs with a better add pack ... I am like people on BITOG who prefer Delo 400

You can find a lot of VOA and UOA of european PCMO on the russian forum http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/, readable with google or chrome translation

Btw, Volvo transmission oils are not made for fuel economy, but just to be able to shift smoothly at -30°

So motor oil SAE 30, then 10w30, then ATF F/G before and now synthetic 75W80 and 75W. It is not a recent trend like other car brands for fuel economy. I speak about genuine Volvo gearboxes of course, M40/41/45/46/47/56/90.

I will test now a BMW MTF-2 (Ravenol) in M45/M47 to replace ATF G. Should perform better, same viscosity curve, but GL-4 and better add pack...

 

[Swissdieselfan]

Originally Posted By: miniac007
Originally Posted By: Swissdieselfan
Ultra is not a C3, so might have slightly more Zinc, although the Renault block is not supposed to be sensitive about Zinc levels. The present run is something of a test to see if that is true, if not I will think about trying one of the HDEO's after I have passed the emissions test this summer.


In the URL I posted above they say the Penzoil Euro 5w40 is Shell Ultra 5w40 and you have the VOA.

Concerning Total/Elf, I never used their PCMOs, neither castrol, to much expensive. But I used their HDEO with success, as I was paying 3.8€+VAT for TIR 8600 for example, half price than PCMOs with professional discount. A friend of mine is using also them by tons, with fleet UOA guard with success on various HDEO and marine engines, in north sea and mediterranean sea. So I cannot considere those brands as bull [censored]...

For now, I decided to stay with HDEO for my cars also (I have only old cars before 96), as it is cheap and good based on UOAs. In my opinion, I prefer a supermaket Meguin/Pennasol/Total HDEO to a major brand PCMO, considering the add pack and the price...

I posted a VOA of a Pennasol 15w40 CI-4 VDS-3 with a much more rich add pack than PCMOs. It is first price mineral HDEO, but VDS-3, at the half price of PCMOs with a better add pack ... I am like people on BITOG who prefer Delo 400

You can find a lot of VOA and UOA of european PCMO on the russian forum http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/, readable with google or chrome translation

Btw, Volvo transmission oils are not made for fuel economy, but just to be able to shift smoothly at -30°

So motor oil SAE 30, then 10w30, then ATF F/G before and now synthetic 75W80 and 75W. It is not a recent trend like other car brands for fuel economy. I speak about genuine Volvo gearboxes of course, M40/41/45/46/47/56/90.

I will test now a BMW MTF-2 (Ravenol) in M45/M47 to replace ATF G. Should perform better, same viscosity curve, but GL-4 and better add pack...


Just had a look at the Penn 15/40 oil and although I need a 5/40, it does look interesting for what is a very cheap oil in the EU. Very solid add pack with lots of Boron.
The M56 Volvo box was made by Renault, although I think the oil was from Castrol and the clutch is different.

 

[miniac007]

Volvo X40 had at first all renault gearboxes (1.6,1.8,2.0,1.9TD), but the T4 always had the M56 gearbox.(Note that the 2.0 and T4 are almost the same block). I guess that 200hp and 300Nm is enough to break a JC5.

Then in 1999 Volvo made some extensive modifications to the X40.
The 2.0l got VVT (B4204S2) and the M56.

From 1999 onwards all engines in the X40 slowly got the M56 gearbox.

The M56 was introduced on the 850 and it is Volvo/Getrag, not a Renault gearbox.

M56 use 645 and after 745 volvo synthetic oils. I will send a sample of 645 next week for VOA, and I will post the results here.

The M56 was used by Renault with code VM1 on Safrane with volvo engines.

You have a M56 ?

 

[Swissdieselfan]

Yes the last (Phase 2 post 2002) of the V40's had a Renault M56 fitted, I have the dealer recommended gearbox oil in it, but will change to Liqui Moly box oil in another 50K km. The Volvo oil is the original conventional G3 75/80, the LM one is a full synthetic G3+ 75/90. LM have 2 different box oils listed for my old Volvo, but their R&D chap said the 75/80 was the OEM because of fuel economy reasons and recommended I use the 75/90. For some reason there has been some reports of problems with G4 box oils relating to corrosion, but none associated with the V40 diesels.

 

[miniac007]

Again, the M56 IS NOT a Renault Gearbox but a Volvo/Getrag.

If you really have a M56 after 1996, you need this Volvo oil which is not a 75w90:

1l 1161 845
4l 1161 846

This oil is fully synthetic transmission oil with excellent shifting
and synchronising properties at all temperatures, especially
low temperatures. Being a low friction oil, the temperature
in the transmission is reduced. Viscosity is low, which
means reduced fuel consumption which in turn means less
environmental impact.
The oil is recommended for all manual transmissions from and
including model year 1996 of the M56, M58 AWD, M59, M65
(5-speed with 6-cyl. engine), M90, MTX75, M66 type as well
as MMT6.

Technical data

Quality: API GL-4
Ford specification
WSS-M2C200-D
Viscosity: SAE 75W
Density: 847 kg/m3
Color: Yellow
Base: Synthetic base oil
Lowest flow point: -54° C
Flash point: +215° C
Viscosity at +40°C 30.5 mm2/s
Viscosity at +100°C 6.3 mm2/s


You can also use any oil with Ford WSS-M2C200-D like Ravenol MTF-2, Castrol Syntrans FE 75W and others, but there is not more € to gain compared to only 2 liters of volvo oil...

http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums/...29755040962d137


If you need other oil, you don't have a M56 but a real Renault Gearbox M3P or M5P or M5D

And in this case I advice you to stay with volvo oil or Elf original (TransElf TRJ 75W80 GL5), and don't play with oil to gain 3€... There were a lot of Renault geabox breakdown just by changing oil brand... Those boxes are [censored]...

M3p=jb3
M5p=jc5-222
M5d=jc5-223

 

[miniac007]

For Renault Gearbox, you need an GL5 AND 75w80, or you gearbox should have problem...

So there is the Elf and Volvo...

SAE 75W-80

1161 681

3.4 l

A SHP (Super High Performance) high pressure transmission
oil, for manual transmission.
The oil gives easy gear shifting even at low temperatures
and also provides optimum protection at high temperatures.
Thanks to the special additive composition, the oil is completely
safe for the metals in the transmission, such as clutches,
where ordinary sulfur/phosphor based transmission fluid can
cause the metals to decompose.
Excellent for use in all transmissions where SAE 80W or SAE
75W-80W is specified.

Technical data

Quality: API GL-5
Viscosity: SAE 75W-80
Density: 884 kg/m3
Base: Semi-synthetic
Lowest flow point: -40°C
Flash point: +200° C/ +392° F
Viscosity at 40°C: 47 mm2/s
Viscosity at 100°C: 8.5 mm2/s

 

[Swissdieselfan]

The gearbox oil used by Volvo for the phase 2 V40 1.9D's was part no 1161745 which is a conventional base 75W-80 API GL-4 It's not changed in spec since the car was built and I purchased the same oil direct from the dealer.

I trust Liqi Moly R&D chaps 100% and they informed me the best oil was the full synthetic 75W-90 which is also a GL-4, so when I next change oil that is what I will be using and most V40 owners are doing the same. There have been some bad reports about Castrol GL 5 box oil in the M56. The Volvo oil is 20 Euros per litre and the LM one is 16 Euros per litre in Germany from one of their dealers.

Note: The GL3 should be GL4 in my previous post.

This was from LM:
The first fill is a 75W-80 because of the theoretic fuel economy. Our GL 4+ 75W-90 oil can be used without any problems because we got the quality which is claimed and also got a better wear protection with the -90 viscosity instead of the fuel economy.

Should you have any further questions, we are always at disposal.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Best Regards

i. A.

Stephan Weissinger
Anwendungstechniker
application engineer

 

[Swissdieselfan]

OK so I got a reply from Shell and it does look like web site trouble:

The information we have for Volvo S40, V40 1.9D Turbodiesel (Classic)
2000-2004 is that the engine oil requirement is mineral based that
meets the ACEA B3 or API CF specs with viscosity SAE 15W-40.

That was the basis in recommending Helix HX7 10W-40 and Helix Diesel
HX7 10W-40. These products are semi-synthetic and meets the minimum
specs requirement.

Helix Diesel Ultra 5W-40 is fully synthetic and I can confirm that
this is also suitable for the car and is our premium recommendation.
I will check our Online Oil Recommendation Tool (LubeMatch) and
review the product tiering

Regards,
Chanda
Technical Helpdesk

Not sure where they got the idea a full synthetic was no good, it might be from the Castrol Magnetec 10/40 original oil specs, before it was changed to Edge 5/40.