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#2990606 - 05/01/13 06:18 PM Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12?
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
This has been on my mind for a while, and in the spirit of picking some brains (this is BITOG after all), I had an inquiry. I've seen Kreen being recommended for it's cleaning abilities and with good posted results. Also, due to it's nature, I can't get it here in California. Part of that deals with it being a "hazardous" chemical. Now, Berryman's Chemtool B12 is also quite a hazardous chemical, but people shy away from recommending it as a crankcase cleaner. Is Chemtool that much more potent or dangerous? Kreen has been used to flush out a vehicle for (for example) a thousand miles, but Chemtool can't be used for that same task. At most, from what I've read, a 15 minute flush without load. So what exactly separates and makes it okay to use Kreen instead of Chemtool?

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#2990622 - 05/01/13 06:32 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 13640
Loc: Sunny Florida
I have used kreen many times with great results.

I have never used B12 in my oil. Per this site it is somewhat hazardous in the oil if not dosed very exactly!
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#2990700 - 05/01/13 08:16 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
eagle23 Offline


Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 414
Loc: Roswell GA
re Chemtool, cutting petroleum-based detritus is great but does it provide enough lubricity in motor oil while doing so in a running engine, even though less "hazardous" chemically per EPA?

I haven't seen anything but I do wonder since they no longer recommend it for that use.

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#2991238 - 05/02/13 11:48 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4180
Loc: Mahzurrah!
I am interested in this as well. I have heard of it being used as a "flush" at oil change and found a few positive comments on the net, but I've never seen anything about running it like Kreen. My understanding is they used to even recommend it for this purpose but stopped.
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#2991338 - 05/02/13 01:26 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
I'm aware that it used to be okay to run it on the crankcase, but they (Berryman) opted to remove the directions from their cans. Quite frankly, if Kreen can be used, so can Chemtool. But that's my unscientific opinion on online testimonials all accross the internet and some word of mouth from older shade-tree mechanics I've talked to. I believe damage comes from misuse of any product and perhaps that is why Chemtool got a bad reputation when user error was present and the situation wasn't properly monitored and directions followed, thus negating its recommendation today. With that said, I've decided to do a run of Chemtool.

For the sake of those who are curious and "science", I've added 6 ounces in my crankcase and poured the rest in my gas tank. I will drive my vehicle for 500 miles, then drain and post pictures of the filter cartridge element. Why? Not to clean up sludge or anything of that sort, just want to see if I can quiet down my lifters. Vehicle is a 1994 BMW 318is with ~220,000 miles on the original engine block. This car is driven all-city (zero highway), and I'll be operating it at 750-3,500 RPM. Currently I have 5w30 Nexgen Conventional at roughly 4,000 miles of use. So at 4,500 I'll drain it and report my findings. I've ran Chemtool for 100 miles thus far, and I'm happy to report that a slight lifter tick at start up is less ambient and the oil is starting to get slightly more opaque. Keep tuned.

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#2991479 - 05/02/13 03:58 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4180
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Six ounces doesn't seem like much, I know it is strong stuff though. Good idea to take it easy.

Please DO be sure to follow up with what you find.
_________________________
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#2991517 - 05/02/13 04:47 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: KCJeep]
Mystic Offline


Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 6992
Loc: Colorado
I would use Kreen before I used Chemtool B12. I would be really leery about using Chemtool B12. Kreen I think is just safer.

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#2991557 - 05/02/13 05:38 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: Mystic]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 8449
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
I do use Chemtool but only for 10 min at idle. No load on the engine.
If you feel Kreen it does have some lubricity Chemtool doesn't.

I use it only as a last resort for a stuck lifter or something similar.
In a decent running and reasonably clean engine i use only oil. Personally i am not an additive fan but they have their place.

JMHO.
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#2991775 - 05/02/13 09:11 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: KCJeep]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2324
Loc: usa
Quote:
I would use Kreen before I used Chemtool B12. I would be really leery about using Chemtool B12. Kreen I think is just safer.
I'm no chemist....but they seem very similar.....Kreen just keeps their formulation under wraps.....Berryman's is very open per their MSDS......some acetone, methanol, Xylenes, and some other stuff......and yes, I've heard the misnomer too, through the years Berryman decided to remove the crankcase directions from the can, because people were mis-dosing......and actually, if I recall (it's been a while) the dosing I believe was 6 oz. for 4 cylinder engines, and 8 oz. for 6 cylinders.......or something like that.

The thing that gets me, is the flash point......as with Kreen, I'm willing to bet that stuff flashes off pretty quick....but the vapors must still do some cleaning around the crankcase.....I've used it here and there, typically prior to an oil change.....basically same procedure as Kreen....6 or so ounces (it's a pain to measure.....probably one of the other reasons they removed the directions from the steel can LOL......) about 1000 miles before my next OCI....

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#2991795 - 05/02/13 09:34 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
GMorg Offline


Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 2326
Loc: Mizzou-land
Except for the proprietary ingredients that aren't disclosed for Kreen on the MSDS (5-15%), Kreen and B-12 currently appear to be very similar. However, the MSDS for B-12 is not consistent. The previous MSDS for B-12 was quite different from the current. Kreen's lubricity appears to come from the fact that it contains oil (15-25%). I don't see anything in the MSDSs that would make B-12 harsher except for the absence of dilution of other ingredients with oil.

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#2991827 - 05/02/13 10:19 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 4817
Loc: southeast US
I used B12 as piston soak and it removed a lot of carbon from pistons. Way more than MMO.

I would say Kreen is similar, but contains some more toxic ingredients. The Kreen smoke after Kreen soak is very very bad. Chlorocarbons are my guess.

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#2991956 - 05/03/13 05:13 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: friendly_jacek]
SuperDave456 Offline


Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 2198
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Don't forget that a key ingredient to Kreen is Kroil.

Kroil is a penetrating oil that really does penetrate and creep its way into places. Unlike some brands which are just oil in a can.

I'm on the fence about B-12. I've used it successfully to clean up old carbs that I didn't want to tear apart. Specifically I used to add 2 cans of the stuff to a full tank and drive it like it was stolen.
But I'm really not sure about it going into the crankcase.

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#2992350 - 05/03/13 02:54 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
paulo57509 Offline


Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 1679
Loc: Tracy, CA
FWIW, at one time (40 years ago) B-12 cans had instructions for using it in the cranckcase. On the occasions that I've poured it into a cranckcase, I did so into a hot engine and the liquid immediately started to "boil" and vaporize. As I recall, this vaporizing was touted to be similar to a steam clean, IIRC.

I recall seeing cranckcase use instructions on a containeras recently as a few years ago. The instructions say to pour it into a cold engine and then run it.

Unless the formula has changed between 1960 and now, I'd say that after a few minutes of running at operating temperature, the B-12 is "gone".

I'd still change the oil soon afterwards so whatever cleaned residue that might remain is completely out of the crankcase.

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#2994245 - 05/05/13 11:35 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
2000Trooper Offline


Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
why not use thick oil with B12? would that not work?

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#2994287 - 05/06/13 02:37 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
Just using what is already in the crankcase. No sense letting perfectly good oil go to waste. And B12 will work with any oil viscosity, if that was your question.

And for those standing by, I'll have a full report next weekend. I'm almost done with my run.

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#2994518 - 05/06/13 10:53 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 7329
Loc: NorthEast
how long do you plan to keep it in there?

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#2998783 - 05/10/13 10:43 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
^Kept it for 500 miles, as originally planned. I didn't rack up the miles as fast as some of you guys do, due to it being city miles and because school is winding down for me, so the car got driven less and less as time elapsed. Car has sat for a couple of days now, but it being the weekend I can dig right in (finally). I'll be performing an oil change tomorrow and will post up my "raw" observations/findings. Engine hasn't blown up or exhibited any abnormal drive-ability issues.

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#2998911 - 05/11/13 07:01 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 7329
Loc: NorthEast
what dosage did you use?

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#2999235 - 05/11/13 02:58 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4180
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Still watching, thanks for the update!
_________________________
2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 @ 119k "GC" Edge 0w30
Fram Tough Guard TG8A
KIA Sedona 33k, Chevy Lumina 166k, Chrysler Sebring 169k, Ford Ranger 172k!

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#2999413 - 05/11/13 07:25 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
Here we go! Let me tell you guys right off the bat -- it is challenging trying to take pictures while doing an oil change. I had to wipe down my gloves several dozen times so I wouldn't get too much oil on my smartphone. I must of looked silly wiping down my gloves several times and I hope nobody was watching either. It made a 20 minute oil change into an hour oil change smile I took quite a few pictures, but I included the ones I felt served the purpose of this thread. Once again, I wasn't trying to clean sludge or varnish (because I don't have that problem), but did want to see if I could clean out my ticking hydraulic lifters. Verdict: Success. Noise is gone. Chemtool must of dissolved the gunk that was present and suspended it into the oil. Oil got pretty darn dark for the time it was in the crankcase. And to recap for those who just skipped to this portion of the thread: 6 ounces of Chemtool B12 was added into the crankcase for a 4,500 mile OCI on 5w30 Valvoline Nexgen conventional oil. On to the pictures...


Obligatory fill-hole-shot. As you can see from the badly taken picture, it is varnish free and sludge free.


Here we have a trio of shots taken of the oil drain plug. Pretty normal crud on the tip of the oil plug. I was afraid of finding a magnet full of spiky metal shavings, due to the reputation Chemtool has of being too harsh and should only be used to flush engine without a load. Well, looks like all is well. Just comes to show you that the oil did it's job and that Chemtool didn't melt the innards of my engine smile Middle picture shows a quick wipe-down and the shot furthest to the right shows it ready to go with it's gasket (dont use crush washer). Shinny!


In this shot you can appreciate the crud I wiped off the oil plug. Nothing out of the ordinary really, but felt it was a good representation of the little gunk I smeared off onto a clean paper towel.


Filter cartridge that was in service was a Purolator L14758. Filter was in for roughly 2 oil changes, or about 9,500 miles (5,000 and 4,500 miles). Some of you will note some perforated paper on some of the end-caps. Some filters have that extra layer of paper, so I peeled it off so I could get a better shot of the paper media.


Close-up of the paper media. Yep, I ripped it while trying to pry the pleats to check for any suspicious debris. There's a shadow that I couldn't avoid, but I found no chunks of anything.


Here's a shot of the used oil. Kinda dark for the oil change interval, but you be the judge.


Close-up of the used oil.


Here I circled what I saw after I poured the used oil out of the plastic drain pan. They weren't metallic (because magnet couldn't pick them up). In my opinion, this is stripped aluminum from the oil plug thread hole. Previous owner cross threaded the plug and I had to fix that when I took over the car around 20,000 miles ago, so this could be residual carnage of that. Not worried, but I wanted to include it here. Or maybe it's crud that got dislodged from the crankcase. Your guess is as good as mine. Worth noting: previous OCI had a couple of these bits.


Here's what is going in: Mag 1 5w20 conventional and a Mahle OX91D filter cartridge. And yes, for the inquiring minds, I have used 5w20 viscosity on this engine before. No harm has come of it. Since this is a city driven car with an average of 10-20 mile trips, 5w20 is perfect even in the sunny weather of southern California. Sometimes I feed it 5w20, sometimes I feed it 5w30 - whichever I have on hand smile

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#2999498 - 05/11/13 09:33 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
Quote:
6 ounces of Chemtool B12 was added into the crankcase for 500 miles to finish off a 4,500 mile OCI...


Minor correction, since I can't edit that snip.

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#3000310 - 05/12/13 09:10 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4180
Loc: Mahzurrah!
banana thumbsup banana thumbsup

FANTASTIC follow up, thank you! Simply a great job, so many of these threads get started and then the OP disappears forever and you never know what happened.

My engine IS dirty and I've pondered B12 for a while I might just have to give it a shot.

Thanks again for your diligence.
_________________________
2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 @ 119k "GC" Edge 0w30
Fram Tough Guard TG8A
KIA Sedona 33k, Chevy Lumina 166k, Chrysler Sebring 169k, Ford Ranger 172k!

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#3000775 - 05/13/13 11:18 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4180
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Oh, one more question. I re-read through this whole thing but I don't see what your crankcase capacity is. Just curious, thanks!
_________________________
2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 @ 119k "GC" Edge 0w30
Fram Tough Guard TG8A
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#3000963 - 05/13/13 02:12 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
Maximum sump capacity is 5.3 quarts; however, I use 5 quarts. That gets me a little bellow that full mark on the dipstick smile

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#3001055 - 05/13/13 03:56 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4180
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Thanks, 8 oz in my 6 qt Jeep sump will hardly kill it then.

Mag1 is good stuff, hard to find around here other than the occassional convenience store where it tends to be outragously priced.
_________________________
2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 @ 119k "GC" Edge 0w30
Fram Tough Guard TG8A
KIA Sedona 33k, Chevy Lumina 166k, Chrysler Sebring 169k, Ford Ranger 172k!

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#3001103 - 05/13/13 04:54 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
Yep, 8 oz is a-okay. And I cant find Mag1 locally, so I get it from Amazon, when the price is right.

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#3001203 - 05/13/13 06:11 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 7329
Loc: NorthEast
can you recall at what time the noise stopped? was it at the end or right after adding the B12?

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#3001274 - 05/13/13 07:21 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
trooper001 Offline


Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 130
Loc: California
Noise became less audible within the first 100 miles. Noise was completely gone by around 150-160+/- miles. Keep in mind this was a fairly clean engine, so your experience may vary from mine. I may continue a maintenance regimen every 15,000 miles to keep things in order, especially after confirming that this stuff isn't as harsh as once thought to be, with proper use.

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#3003403 - 05/15/13 08:17 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
2000Trooper Offline


Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
What is the dosing for B12 per qt of oil?

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#3006551 - 05/19/13 10:39 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
jfking106 Offline


Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 178
Loc: GA
Originally Posted By: trooper001
Yep, 8 oz is a-okay. And I cant find Mag1 locally, so I get it from Amazon, when the price is right.


You can buy it at Walmart. They call it Supertech Full Synthetic.

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#3006553 - 05/19/13 10:42 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: 2000Trooper]
jfking106 Offline


Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 178
Loc: GA
Originally Posted By: 2000Trooper
What is the dosing for B12 per qt of oil?


Use 1 ounce per quart to be safe, up to you.

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#3192526 - 11/20/13 01:22 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 69
Loc: Florida
Hi Guys,

I just found this thread doing a search helping a Caddy owner in Finland to duplicate the B12 chemistry.

Back in January, I was helping the same Caddy owner with an old 472 that I suspected had tons of carbon (seized ring pack and combustion chamber carbon). He has finally done leak down testing which further confirms hung open valves from carbon and most likely a carboned ring pack.

Anyway, I got a back door into Berryman to have a lengthy conversation with their tech who then got me in touch with their Chemist Dan Nowlan. To reproduce the B12 for the guy in Europe to do a piston soak, he basically told me to use 2 parts Tolulene : 1 part Acetone : 1 part MEK which seems consistent to the MSDS.

Here's the string of e-mails with lots of info.

*****************************************************************************

Hello,

I was reading about some of your products on different auto forums that were posted a few years ago. From what I read, I think it was said that 1 of your products no longer listed the "oil crankcase flush" procedure. Which product was that?

I think it was also said; that old product was the same formulation and concentration as the B-12 Chemtool® Carburetor, Fuel System and Injector Cleaner or possibly another product in your current product line. I think maybe they were even referring to the regular Chem Dip or Prof. Chem Dip.

Through the many forums I read; they also made similar reference to performing a piston soak to break down carbon and one of the old Berryman products changed their formulation. It was discussed that the old formulation could be found in a different product in the Berryman line as a substitute....I think?

Does this sound familiar?

Thanks,

Kind Regards,
Chris


***************************************************************************

Hello Chris,

The product that we carry that used to state “in the oil or crankcase” is our B-12 Chemtool fuel additive (part #0116). Although we changed the verbiage on the container, the formula remains the same.

The Chem-Dip product did have a formula change but only in the 1-gallon round can (part #0996). This was done due to regulations at the time but the “old” formula can still be purchased in our 5-gallon container (part #0905) and our 1-gallon replenishment can as well (part #0901).

I hope this helps clarify some of what you heard. If you have any other questions, feel free to give me a call or email us back. Thank you for your interest in our products and have a great day.

Respectfully,

Eddie Torres
Plant Manager
Berryman Products, Inc.

*****************************************************************************

Thanks Eddie,

For many years I've seen the Berryman B12 and never used it and I wish I did due to an engine that had been slightly sludged/heavy varnish due to the use of bad bulk fleet oil in the early 90's that had an unknown problem but it was too late as it sludged an entire fleet of trucks, including my 1991 Cadillac Brougham!

Now I would like to start to use the product in its "original intended use" and maybe try some alternative methods with its use!

#1. So why were the "Oil Flush Instructions" removed from the B12 Chemtool?

There are so many rumors on the internet of why those directions were removed mostly of seized motors from either thinned oil or from too much sludged being removed from an engine which could seem plausible and is also an old rumor with any solvent flush including the use of what the old mechanics did by using 1qt of kerosene or Diesel Fuel per 4qts oil.

#2. Also, what product would you recommend to pour into a plug hole for a long soak period to free a suspected carboned-up ring pack?

GM has a product called "Piston & Ring Cleaner p/n 12378549"I
which has a lengthy TSB for a soak procedure for many GM's like Northstar's, Saturns, ect..

My idea is to use some B12 Chemtool, heat it in a electric coffee pot to 200 F., pour into the plug hole, and allow to soak. While the liquid is hot, put a compression checker into the plug hole, and rotate the engine by hand to TDC and force the cleaner into the ring pack under pressure. As compression falls on the gauge, keep doing it to force the hot cleaner down through the ring pack and add more cleaner for a long soak period of a few days. Also, hook up shop air to the quick disconnect of the compression tester to further force pressurized air into the ring pack while at TDC.

#3. I see from the MSDS that the Flash Point for the B12 is: "<20°F by Setaflash closed-cup tester" but I do not see the auto-ignition point of the Barryman Products?

I see the Boiling Range: 133-230°F (approximate).


My thoughts are that hot solvent will work with better efficiency to break down and completely dissolve????? the carbon and free the suspected carboned up ring pack.

#4. Has heating B12 to dissolve carbon ever been tested in your labs?

Since the old oil flush directions for the B12 Chemtool were " add the product to cold oil", I guess the chemicals quickly flash-off and evaporate as the oil temp rises within 5-10 min.

#5. Is that right and the reason/rational to add to cold oil or could there be an ignition of the product if spilled onto a hot manifold when the engine is hot?

I did find this on your site from the "Chemtooller":
" Only by a knowledgeable professional. With advances in electronic management systems in cars produced the last 15-20 years, Berryman no longer recommends this application in the hands of “Do-It-Yourselfers” without the proper equipment to protect electronic sensors and computers."

#6. Can you tell me the specifics of the above bulletin ?

And this from another forum:
"the directions on the back say - Chemtool B-12 vaporizes immediately to clean all internal engine surfaces, dissolving gum and varnish"
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/88498-chemtool-b-12-oil-change.html


#7. What temps is the B12 Chemtool stable at before evaporation or whatever the term is?

#8. Also, I am helping a Cadillac Forum member who is in Finland Europe. Is the B12 Chemtool available in Europe or under a different private label there?


Your advice and guidance is greatly appreciated,

Kind Regards,
Chris


****************************************************************************


FROM CHEMIST AT BERRYMAN:


Hi Chris,

See comments to your questions above:


Because B-12 Chemtool Fuel Treatment (part #s 0116 and 0101) contains 100% strong solvent rather than detergents or weak carriers and diluents, it is quite a versatile product….

1) If you want an engine oil flush, then you can use part # 0116. Pour into your cold crankcase approximately 1˝ oz. of B-12 per quart of oil capacity. For instance, if your vehicle holds 5 quarts of oil, then you would use 7.5 oz. of B-12 or about half of one can. After you’ve added it to your cold oil, start the car and run it at idle 10-15 minutes until it’s warmed up. Then change the spent oil and replace the filter.

2) Regarding the piston soak, if your rings are good, you may be able to use B-12 Chemtool Fuel Treatment for that application, too. The amount of product and soak duration will vary based on cylinder orientation, degree of carbonaceous deposits, piston ring function, etc. In Cadillac a V motor with a bore of about 3ľ”, you’ll need about 400 mL (13˝ fl oz) per cylinder to cover the entire piston. If the rings will hold the product in place, I would soak for a few to several hours and drain. Repeat if necessary. You can try rotating the motor by hand and pressurizing, but it shouldn’t be necessary. Also, do not heat the product to 200°F. The boiling point on some of these solvents is well under that temperature.

3) The auto-ignition temperature of B-12 has not been tested, but the lowest auto-ignition temperature of a major component in B-12 is 725°F. A composite value would be about 900°F. Again, I would not recommend heating the product, not above maybe 90-100°F anyway.

4) B-12 has not been tested at elevated temperatures because it is so effective at ambient temperatures, even on hard carbon. The old directions for engine oil flushing indicated to add it to cold oil so that it has the maximum time to work. It does not take long before the oil has become warm enough to start flashing off the solvents.

5) That statement from our website refers to the fact that some sensors are quite delicate and the strong solvents in B-12 may not always be compatible. Because we cannot know about every sensor on the market, customers are advised to check internet forums for their vehicle and specifically for the task they wish to undertake in order to see if other owners have had issues with the use of cleaning chemicals and, if so, which seem to be the “culprits.”

6) As previously noted, the boiling point of B-12 is rather low. While it starts out liquid in the cold crankcase to dissolve gum and sludge on everything exposed to the oil, its heated vapor can act as a “steam cleaner” for all exposed surfaces throughout the crankcase above the oil until expelled via the PCV valve.

7) Open containers of B-12 will evaporate at any temperature above probably -20°F. Slow evaporation will occur above about 40-50°F, moderate evaporation will occur above about 70-80°F, and marked evaporation will occur above 100°F, especially as it approaches the boiling point of acetone (133°F).

8) I do not know of any sources of B-12 in Europe. We do not private label either.

Thanks for your interest and good luck!

Dan

*************************************************************************************

SO THAT'S BASICALLY EVERYTHING REGARDING OUR E-MAILS.....

-I still have some notes from when I spoke to the chemist "Dan" at Berryman, he said they also make a Combustion Chamber Cleaner #2610

-He also said the Total Fuel System Cleaner #2616 is stronger to be added to the tank.....I THINK.... and said to only use it 2 times per oil change. I'll ask him again and post back.

-The crankcase dilution rate for the #0116 is 1.5oz to 1 qt oil and let idle and not rev the motor because the chemicals will evaporate faster as the engine heats up.

-I told him somewhere I read about I think a BMW forum user who used up to 4oz of B12 Chemtool to 1 gal. fuel for some noticable performance.

-Dan said, it can be used like that without a problem of around 1 can to 5 gallons but the recommended dose is 1oz / 1 gal. of gas every 3 tanks to either clean the combustion chambers and/or to keep them clean.


Well, I hope this helps. I've been having some long terhm health problems sick and can't really do the experiment I've been wanting to do using both the Berryman B12 Chemtool along with a Kreen treatment. That's my plans some day, and I want to document it by pulling the valve cover on my 91 Brougham/305 chevy with around 125k miles and hopefully post pictures........

Regards,
Chris

thumbsup



Edited by cadchris (11/20/13 01:27 AM)
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#3192825 - 11/20/13 11:12 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4180
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Great information Chris, thanks for posting!

I've often wondered about a little B12 for cleaning but these days the older info on that is scarce.
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#3193046 - 11/20/13 03:45 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 69
Loc: Florida
I have to ask you guys for some advice......

Is there a section of chemists here that knows or discusses old chemistry's of old vintage car care products?


This is why I posted the B12 stuff and my interest in it because the "OLD SCHOOL" chemicals of a by gone era and which were marketed years ago did have there place, but are long forgotten and not used. Maybe due to incompatilibity concerns of today's fuel systems, but stuff was more potent back then, EPA regulations took it off the market or away from consumers ect....

Many would swear by the old GM TOP END ENGINE CLEANER (TEC) which I was told was removed from even professional use due to the EPA.....I'd like to see some kind of documentation. I wonder if the dealer has a TSB or there was some internal letter that went around to the dealers about it....

I was told, there are only so many chemicals and combos out there and most have been discovered already and all the known formulations have been already made for certain applications years ago. Basically the statement is that there's really nothing new and ground breaking in chemistries and most everything is just a re-invention of old chemistries.

So here's what I've been recently researching. I have a vinyl top on my old Cadillac Brougham and have used an old acrylic vinyl treatment made by Castle Products called NV Vinyl. It's not like Armor-All or has silicone. I discovered that many guys used the old MOP'N'Glo floor wax which seems to have an identical chemistry and dries and lasts for a few months. But was still a water-based acrylic.

Now I discovered bits and pieces of info on different forums that years ago, there was a solevant based? product for vinyl roof and Turtle Wax in the 70's -80's , Phillips 66, Shell, Dupont all also had some different kind of vinyl roof treatment that left a dry hardcoat shiny shellac finish that would last for a year. Those old cans are still out there for sale to the vintage can collectors, but who knows how stable the chemicals are and what they "WERE" made of .........

Anyway, old chemistry's and formula's seemed to really work well from back in the day.....which is why I posted up the B12 info that I researched and decided to use some day to quickly clean out my motor because..."My Life Is Too Short" to wait around for results and also being a plain old American of today's society of wanting immediate results and gratification! USA grin LOL

Of course, if I blow the motor, I'm not proud enough to keep it to myself and will come back b'itch'in. duh


Edited by cadchris (11/20/13 03:51 PM)
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#3197998 - 11/25/13 06:07 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
bustednutz Offline


Registered: 01/18/08
Posts: 923
Loc: Virginia Bch. VA
I used B-12 in an old Audi 5000 I used to have. Poured it into the crankcase and took it out for a high rev aggressive drive. About 30-40 minutes long. Didn't harm a thing. Came home and changed the oil. I used it for a pre change flush. Did it work? Not sure. It certainly didn't hurt anything.
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#3210772 - 12/08/13 08:20 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
Toolmaker_Mark Offline


Registered: 10/24/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Indiana
I haven't heard of Kreen, but, I believe in The Berryman products, have for years, I have used the B12 in the crankcases of engine in cars that were pretty sludged up and I think that the if you have a lot of sludge you can get by with driving it, but I usually only do that for a day or two. usually, I buy the can at the store when I get my new oil filter, stop by the gas station pour about what I think is half pint in the oil and the rest in the gas can, drive it home and drain the oil, change the filter and, I usually do this with all of my vehicles,when I get rid of a vehicle it still runs good, just everything else is falling off of it.

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#3258033 - 01/23/14 09:38 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 32535
Loc: New Jersey
Nothing else has quieted the lifter tick at startup on my M42 engine in my 91 318i. I plan to use this, as Im getting near the end of my OCI and the car consumes oil on the highway (there is a thread about that someplace, never have gotten to the bottom, but it is roughly 1qt/1000 miles or less!). Car runs beautifully, good efficiency, no smoke that I can see, but also no exterior leaks.

I plan to add this to the oil and idle as recommended, then drain and refill. Hopefully it will do some good. Not sure if I have the guts to drive on it, given that I often have the need for extended highway driving and wouldnt want to put that kind of use on the stuff (though it seems it may vaporize quick under those conditions...).

My engine also is spotless inside. Not sure of in the cylinders themselves...

I have treated my engine and fuel with Kreen, without result.

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#3259879 - 01/25/14 05:44 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: JHZR2]
turtlevette Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 568
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
no smoke that I can see,


I just gave my Trans Am a treatment of this today. There's absolutely no exhaust smoke but I've got smoke blowing out the breather hole and oil filler when the cap is off.

I put the B12 in the oil fill after it had idled a few minutes and it bubbled up and almost spit back at me. That's why they say add to a dead cold engine. It's very volatile stuff. The engine immediately gained rpm. I think that is the result of the solvents flashing and being sucked into the PVC. I ran at high idle for about an hour. I also shot some aerosol B12 in the carb while it was running.

No noticeable changes.

The biggest thing I did that helped was last week to pour a pint of tap water into the carb while revving the engine. The rpms gained several hundred and have stayed there so far.
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#3260304 - 01/26/14 07:18 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
jamesyarbrough Offline


Registered: 01/17/14
Posts: 295
Loc: Denison TX
I just read the thread and all I can say is wow. I could never bring myself to pour carb cleaner in my oil fill and then drive it. You guys are brave
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#3262066 - 01/27/14 09:53 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: turtlevette]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 32535
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
no smoke that I can see,


I just gave my Trans Am a treatment of this today. There's absolutely no exhaust smoke but I've got smoke blowing out the breather hole and oil filler when the cap is off.

I put the B12 in the oil fill after it had idled a few minutes and it bubbled up and almost spit back at me. That's why they say add to a dead cold engine. It's very volatile stuff. The engine immediately gained rpm. I think that is the result of the solvents flashing and being sucked into the PVC. I ran at high idle for about an hour. I also shot some aerosol B12 in the carb while it was running.

No noticeable changes.

The biggest thing I did that helped was last week to pour a pint of tap water into the carb while revving the engine. The rpms gained several hundred and have stayed there so far.





My BMW doesnt have EGR, and sucks a vacuum on the headspace in the oil and valvecover area. Open the oil cap or remove a breather hose and the engine will suck too much air and then stall...

Im not brave enough to put B12 in to a hot sump, even in the winter... But I will give it a try before my next oil change, which may be soon... Since the car has been consuming oil, I havent done one for a while, but Ill change the filter and when I do that, Ill try this...

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#3314344 - 03/16/14 10:50 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 32535
Loc: New Jersey
I added 7.5oz of B-12 to my sump today as a test. Ive been running 5w-30 lately due to oil consumption in my 318i, as I wanted to limit converter exposure. I added the B-12 not because the engine was dirty at all or because of the consumption, it was because there is a lifter tick at cold start. Not sure if it is related to the consumption or not, but since nothing else fixed it, I figured Id give this a try. I figured Id go for a short OCI and then replace with something else when the weather gets warmer.

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#3314398 - 03/17/14 12:45 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 69
Loc: Florida
I finally got my Kreen over the weekend but I really needed to get my order to get the Aero-Kroil for a seized bolt on a control arm shaft nut/bolt where my alignment shims keep falling out on my 91 Cadillac Brougham.

Hopefully some day soon, I want to run an oil analysis, take a photo under the valve cover when I get a new camera from the one I dropped, run B12 when doing an oil change flush, take another photo, run the Kreen, then take another photo every 1000 miles.

Too much crisis going on in my life, so who knows when I can do this.

I'm also looking for an articulating Borescope which will take photos and video either by Extech:
Extech HDV640 Borescope

or by Rigel to inspect the combustion chamber and behind the intake valve so I can start to test carbon cleaners.
Rigel Scope
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#3314830 - 03/17/14 11:35 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: JHZR2]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 4180
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I added 7.5oz of B-12 to my sump today as a test. Ive been running 5w-30 lately due to oil consumption in my 318i, as I wanted to limit converter exposure. I added the B-12 not because the engine was dirty at all or because of the consumption, it was because there is a lifter tick at cold start. Not sure if it is related to the consumption or not, but since nothing else fixed it, I figured Id give this a try. I figured Id go for a short OCI and then replace with something else when the weather gets warmer.


I would be very interested in your results, please update later!
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#3314899 - 03/17/14 12:44 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: KCJeep]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 69
Loc: Florida
Yes, I promise if I can actually perform my tests which is what I always wanted to do and do a write-up. I'll buy either of those scopes, but personally, I'm going to pieces and so are my cars! A lot of [censored] in my life.
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#3316080 - 03/18/14 06:11 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: tommygunn]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 4817
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
I'm no chemist....but they seem very similar.....Kreen just keeps their formulation under wraps.....Berryman's is very open per their MSDS......some acetone, methanol, Xylenes, and some other stuff......


I'm done piston soaks with both B12 and Kreen and it's NOT the same thing. Kreen smoke is very bad smelling and very toxic, you don't even want to be near it. Halogenated hydrocarbons is my best guess.

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#3316308 - 03/18/14 09:43 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: friendly_jacek]
cadchris Offline


Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 69
Loc: Florida
How did you do the Piston Soak? Did you pour it down the throttle body when the engine was running or just squirt the products into the spark plug hole?

Were you able to confirm either products effectiveness?

Regards,
Chris


Edited by cadchris (03/18/14 09:44 PM)
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#3316554 - 03/19/14 06:56 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 4817
Loc: southeast US
spark plug hole. both worked ans stopped consumption for the next 3000-5000 miles.

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#3316592 - 03/19/14 07:58 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 32535
Loc: New Jersey
Then it started consuming again? Weird.

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#3317144 - 03/19/14 03:50 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: JHZR2]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 4817
Loc: southeast US
The piston oil holes were likely closed up, so the rings got dirty again.

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#3317163 - 03/19/14 04:05 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 32535
Loc: New Jersey
but so fast?

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#3317376 - 03/19/14 07:44 PM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 4817
Loc: southeast US
The engine in question (1ZZ-FE) is known to have too hot pistons. That was one part of the problem. Now, the consumption that came back was slow, but it was not zero.

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#3321774 - 03/24/14 09:25 AM Re: Kreen recommended, why not Chemtool B12? [Re: trooper001]
sw99 Offline


Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 1385
Loc: Colorado
I like B-12 Chemtool as a flush. I just used it yesterday in my 1ZZ-FE. Poured 75% of the can into the sump and the other 25% into the fuel tank and drove for 30 minutes (43 miles - Mixed city/hwy). Got home and did my oil change. As of yet, I don't have any oil consumption issues. My milage is still low so time will tell (56,300 miles).
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