Honda 15400-PLM-A02 oil filter now made in USA

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I would almost bet my life that you own a Glock pistol.


I don't. I do own a Ruger, though. And you actually haven't challenged me at all. You see, I don't write the Honda service interval recommendations. I simply do my best to explain them to others who may not understand the rationale behind them. If you have a problem with Honda's service recommendations, you'll have to speak with a Honda engineer.

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
You can't afford to buy a new filter at every OCI, and I do use a new filter at every OCI.


For someone demanding so much data and evidence from everyone else, you sure do seem to make a lot of (incorrect) assumptions! For your reference, here's my stash of filters at the moment. There are five (5) OEM Honda filters, two (2) Purolator L14610s, and three (3) Purolator PL14610s. That's a total of ten (10) filters. I can use them up as often as I like. I am comfortable with using one every other oil change. You are not. And that's cool. We can disagree without (incorrectly) assuming something about someone else's financial means.

So why are you so filter stingy when it comes to an OCI? Is it having to crawl under the car that is so difficult?
Use them filters man! At the rate you're going you WON'T be able to get under your car to use all of those filters.
That, or you are saving them and buying more to be on that new show called, "BITOG Hoarders."

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I would almost bet my life that you own a Glock pistol.


Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I don't. I do own a Ruger, though.

Before I became ill and had to sell all of my weapons, I owned 27 firearms, 18 of those were Rugers. I never owned a Glock. Shot a few, but never liked them. If I want to hold a 2X4 I will go buy one from Home Depot.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Given the above, I'm wondering if filtering capacity beyond OE-spec might be overkill.

It is.

My engine turns 4,000rpm at 82mph in 5th gear. That's a LOT of use. You'd think that if the OE filter specs were inadequate, I'd have no oil pressure left. But it's still good. Those <30-micron particles can't be doing that much damage.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
That, or you are saving them and buying more to be on that new show called, "BITOG Hoarders."

Yes, we need to do that!

I use the Honda OEM filters and Purolator's new PSL series filters for two OCIs because they're specifically designed for longer life with greater media capacity. I could toss them out prematurely, but I prefer to get as much life out of them as I can comfortably get.

I do not run the Purolator Classic (the L series) or the PureOne (the PL series) for two OCIs, because those filters do not use high-capacity media designed to run for long durations.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
That, or you are saving them and buying more to be on that new show called, "BITOG Hoarders."

Yes, we need to do that!

I use the Honda OEM filters and Purolator's new PSL series filters for two OCIs because they're specifically designed for longer life with greater media capacity. I could toss them out prematurely, but I prefer to get as much life out of them as I can comfortably get.

I do not run the Purolator Classic (the L series) or the PureOne (the PL series) for two OCIs, because those filters do not use high-capacity media designed to run for long durations.

You don't ever think of how the oil flows over the dirty media upon bypass and all that dirt and debris goes into your engine?

 

[Fission]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Again, it goes both ways. You are the one challenging Honda's recommendation that the oil filter is good for two OCIs. So bring the proof that they're NOT good for Honda's recommendation. I expect nothing less than an ISO-qualified study, by the way.

Just to nitpick, but this logical fallacy doesn't work. You can't prove the negative. The challenge that I would recommend, which is only slightly different: "So bring the proof that using a 15k-miles-rated oil filter for 2 OCIs (totaling One Filter, One OCI!'" I think it's still more restrictive than Honda's intention, but my guess is that there's no such data, regardless.

As much as it drives me crazy, BOF is within his rights to not believe Honda's assertion that their recommended practice is safe, because no data has been released. Skepticism is a good thing. Of course, Honda has given an implied confidence in their maintenance recommendations, since they are responsible for possible engine failure within the warranty period.

On that same note, nobody has provided data that the "One Filter, One OCI!" is better than "Two Filters, One OCI!", either. BOF, and plenty of other people, are just following someone else's recommendations (call it tradition, tribal knowledge, "the way it's always been done") without reviewing that data. So, that crowd is guilty of nearly the same thing, just 1 degree off of what they oppose.

For the record, I'll be following Honda's "One Filter, Two OCIs!" on my new Honda Ridgeline.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Fission

As much as it drives me crazy, BOF is within his rights to not believe Honda's assertion that their recommended practice is safe, because no data has been released. Skepticism is a good thing. Of course, Honda has given an implied confidence in their maintenance recommendations, since they are responsible for possible engine failure within the warranty period.


The data most likely exists ... it's just not something Honda is going to give out to some dude on BITOG chat board. Honda has recommend using a filter for 2 OCIs that is backed up by test data and analysis ... they just didn't magically came up with that maintenance suggestion. It's based on internal engineering data that only Honda engineers will ever see.

 

[Swarmlord]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

If I want to hold a 2X4 I will go buy one from Home Depot.

I say the same thing about Matthews™ bows.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Fission
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Again, it goes both ways. You are the one challenging Honda's recommendation that the oil filter is good for two OCIs. So bring the proof that they're NOT good for Honda's recommendation. I expect nothing less than an ISO-qualified study, by the way.

Just to nitpick, but this logical fallacy doesn't work. You can't prove the negative. The challenge that I would recommend, which is only slightly different: "So bring the proof that using a 15k-miles-rated oil filter for 2 OCIs (totaling One Filter, One OCI!'" I think it's still more restrictive than Honda's intention, but my guess is that there's no such data, regardless.

As much as it drives me crazy, BOF is within his rights to not believe Honda's assertion that their recommended practice is safe, because no data has been released. Skepticism is a good thing. Of course, Honda has given an implied confidence in their maintenance recommendations, since they are responsible for possible engine failure within the warranty period.

On that same note, nobody has provided data that the "One Filter, One OCI!" is better than "Two Filters, One OCI!", either. BOF, and plenty of other people, are just following someone else's recommendations (call it tradition, tribal knowledge, "the way it's always been done") without reviewing that data. So, that crowd is guilty of nearly the same thing, just 1 degree off of what they oppose.

For the record, I'll be following Honda's "One Filter, Two OCIs!" on my new Honda Ridgeline.

Ok, fair enough. Just as you have your ways so do I. I won't convince you to change and vice versa.
"One Filter, One OCI!"

God Bless America!

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8098/faster20honda.jpg

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Fission

As much as it drives me crazy, BOF is within his rights to not believe Honda's assertion that their recommended practice is safe, because no data has been released. Skepticism is a good thing. Of course, Honda has given an implied confidence in their maintenance recommendations, since they are responsible for possible engine failure within the warranty period.


The data most likely exists ... it's just not something Honda is going to give out to some dude on BITOG chat board. Honda has recommend using a filter for 2 OCIs that is backed up by test data and analysis ... they just didn't magically came up with that maintenance suggestion. It's based on internal engineering data that only Honda engineers will ever see.

I bet those Honda engineers get their test data from the scientist at Area 51.
Z06, you helped me figure it out! That's why they won't share their data!

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Here is FRAM's statement on filtering efficiency for the Ultra: To me it essentially means 99% @ 20 microns or larger, meaning it takes out 99% of all particles 20 microns or larger. Greater than 20 microns also means a particle that is 20.1 microns in size.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Honda does this on purpose, so does Toyota whose filters are about 50% at 20 microns. They both must value flow over efficiency, that or they are worried about filters loading up at higher efficiencies with the longer OCI's they now recommend. Only reasons I can think of anyway but they are both doing it intentionally with their OEM filters.

This is really interesting. Both Honda and Toyota have stellar reputations for engine-longevity, and yet both allow more particulates to remain in the oil stream than some aftermarket-filter makers do. Honda and Toyota's filters are designed to be backwards-compatible with its entire fleet which takes that size of filter, including models like mine, which were always meant to have their filters replaced at each OCI.

My own engine, which has almost 404,000 miles on it, still has oil-pressure sufficient to keep the oil-light off even after highway driving in 100F weather. This means the bearings are still tight enough to keep the pressure above minimum standards. And that's with exclusive use of OE filters for the car's entire life, and with the use of 5W-30 oil.

Given the above, I'm wondering if filtering capacity beyond OE-spec might be overkill. Below a certain size, particles are not harmful to the engine. How many particles do you really get in oil that are above 30 microns in size?

I studied the main-bearing oil-clearances for my engine. I gathered these figures, in thousandths-of-an-inch:
0.8 = 20 microns
1.6 = 40 microns
0.9 to 1.9 = min and max NEW oil-clearance
2.0 to 2.4 = max SERVICE LIMIT oil-clearance, depending on the bearing.

This means that the 40-micron particle is smaller than the usual oil-clearances you are likely to encounter in an engine of my type.

Considering that the cost difference is likely to be minimal between media that is 65% efficient and media that is 99% efficient (and maybe even the same cost for the volumes Honda and Toyota would buy), and considering the reputations that Honda and Toyota need to protect, I'm thinking that there HAS to be some reason other than engine-wear which would explain why OE filters are not made to meet the 99% standard.


Really supports dnewton's contention that anything over adequate entry level filters are a waste of money for normal OCI's, doesn't it?

I believe the most damaging particles are the smallest ones most filters don't get anyway.

I can only think Honda/Toyota want to make sure the filter doesn't load up from extended use and quit flowing altogether. While adequate filtration is fine, NO filtration is not.

 

[bullwinkle]

I have to be the crazy contrarian in this one-I actually changed my FILTER & left the same oil in my Ram-because I wanted to verify that the Bosch Distance Plus could handle long OCIs (which it did with flying colors). Polaris said my UOA showed the oil was fine for continued use, even after 2 1/2 years the TBN was still 8.0, very little contamination (iron of only 17 PPM).

 

[zloveraz]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Here is FRAM's statement on filtering efficiency for the Ultra: To me it essentially means 99% @ 20 microns or larger, meaning it takes out 99% of all particles 20 microns or larger. Greater than 20 microns also means a particle that is 20.1 microns in size.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Honda does this on purpose, so does Toyota whose filters are about 50% at 20 microns. They both must value flow over efficiency, that or they are worried about filters loading up at higher efficiencies with the longer OCI's they now recommend. Only reasons I can think of anyway but they are both doing it intentionally with their OEM filters.

This is really interesting. Both Honda and Toyota have stellar reputations for engine-longevity, and yet both allow more particulates to remain in the oil stream than some aftermarket-filter makers do. Honda and Toyota's filters are designed to be backwards-compatible with its entire fleet which takes that size of filter, including models like mine, which were always meant to have their filters replaced at each OCI.

My own engine, which has almost 404,000 miles on it, still has oil-pressure sufficient to keep the oil-light off even after highway driving in 100F weather. This means the bearings are still tight enough to keep the pressure above minimum standards. And that's with exclusive use of OE filters for the car's entire life, and with the use of 5W-30 oil.

Given the above, I'm wondering if filtering capacity beyond OE-spec might be overkill. Below a certain size, particles are not harmful to the engine. How many particles do you really get in oil that are above 30 microns in size?

I studied the main-bearing oil-clearances for my engine. I gathered these figures, in thousandths-of-an-inch:
0.8 = 20 microns
1.6 = 40 microns
0.9 to 1.9 = min and max NEW oil-clearance
2.0 to 2.4 = max SERVICE LIMIT oil-clearance, depending on the bearing.

This means that the 40-micron particle is smaller than the usual oil-clearances you are likely to encounter in an engine of my type.

Considering that the cost difference is likely to be minimal between media that is 65% efficient and media that is 99% efficient (and maybe even the same cost for the volumes Honda and Toyota would buy), and considering the reputations that Honda and Toyota need to protect, I'm thinking that there HAS to be some reason other than engine-wear which would explain why OE filters are not made to meet the 99% standard.


It's because they want the engine to self destruct! So the STEALERSHIP can sell you another car. Thats why the Honda dealers are pushing those awesome OEM filters over the OCOD! Ive heard about this conspiracy on the Internet for years it has to be true! Sheesh I thought everyone knew that...

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: zloveraz
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Here is FRAM's statement on filtering efficiency for the Ultra: To me it essentially means 99% @ 20 microns or larger, meaning it takes out 99% of all particles 20 microns or larger. Greater than 20 microns also means a particle that is 20.1 microns in size.

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Honda does this on purpose, so does Toyota whose filters are about 50% at 20 microns. They both must value flow over efficiency, that or they are worried about filters loading up at higher efficiencies with the longer OCI's they now recommend. Only reasons I can think of anyway but they are both doing it intentionally with their OEM filters.

This is really interesting. Both Honda and Toyota have stellar reputations for engine-longevity, and yet both allow more particulates to remain in the oil stream than some aftermarket-filter makers do. Honda and Toyota's filters are designed to be backwards-compatible with its entire fleet which takes that size of filter, including models like mine, which were always meant to have their filters replaced at each OCI.

My own engine, which has almost 404,000 miles on it, still has oil-pressure sufficient to keep the oil-light off even after highway driving in 100F weather. This means the bearings are still tight enough to keep the pressure above minimum standards. And that's with exclusive use of OE filters for the car's entire life, and with the use of 5W-30 oil.

Given the above, I'm wondering if filtering capacity beyond OE-spec might be overkill. Below a certain size, particles are not harmful to the engine. How many particles do you really get in oil that are above 30 microns in size?

I studied the main-bearing oil-clearances for my engine. I gathered these figures, in thousandths-of-an-inch:
0.8 = 20 microns
1.6 = 40 microns
0.9 to 1.9 = min and max NEW oil-clearance
2.0 to 2.4 = max SERVICE LIMIT oil-clearance, depending on the bearing.

This means that the 40-micron particle is smaller than the usual oil-clearances you are likely to encounter in an engine of my type.

Considering that the cost difference is likely to be minimal between media that is 65% efficient and media that is 99% efficient (and maybe even the same cost for the volumes Honda and Toyota would buy), and considering the reputations that Honda and Toyota need to protect, I'm thinking that there HAS to be some reason other than engine-wear which would explain why OE filters are not made to meet the 99% standard.


It's because they want the engine to self destruct! So the STEALERSHIP can sell you another car. Thats why the Honda dealers are pushing those awesome OEM filters over the OCOD! Ive heard about this conspiracy on the Internet for years it has to be true! Sheesh I thought everyone knew that...

Ah, it's starting to make sense now. Honda recommends to change the oil filter every other OCI because the engineers have teamed up with Area 51 scientist' to determine the engine will fail just after the factory warranty has expired due to lack of FCI. Then, you have to replace the engine and Honda is gambling on you buying it from them. Or, they just leave all the pressure on the tech and his service mgr. to replace the filter or not, because you will never know either way.

Those engineers teaming up with Area 51 scientist' was a wise move. The scientist can now share their alien knowledge with the Honda engineers to make the Honda last even longer now.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Ah, it's starting to make sense now. Honda recommends to change the oil filter every other OCI because the engineers have teamed up with Area 51 scientist' to determine the engine will fail just after the factory warranty has expired due to lack of FCI. Then, you have to replace the engine and Honda is gambling on you buying it from them. Or, they just leave all the pressure on the tech and his service mgr. to replace the filter or not, because you will never know either way.

Those engineers teaming up with Area 51 scientist' was a wise move. The scientist can now share their alien knowledge with the Honda engineers to make the Honda last even longer now.

I don't think my brain is awake yet this morning. That or this FCI subject is starting to make me CRAZY!

 

[ZeeOSix]

I think it's the latter theory ...

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
You don't ever think of how the oil flows over the dirty media upon bypass and all that dirt and debris goes into your engine?


No.

The tagline in your signature very much applies here, with one simple substitution:

"The anticipation of dirt is worse than dirt itself!"

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
You don't ever think of how the oil flows over the dirty media upon bypass and all that dirt and debris goes into your engine?


No.

The tagline in your signature very much applies here, with one simple substitution:

"The anticipation of dirt is worse than dirt itself!"

But the oil still flows over a dirty filter media in bypass......

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
But the oil still flows over a dirty filter media in bypass......

There is still oil flow going through the media which holds the trapped crud into the media pleats, unless the filter is completely clogged up (unlikely unless the motor it totally abused). Only time crud from the media might be swept in through the bypass valve is if that crud fell out of the media and collected near the bypass valve while the engine was off. Then when the engine is started, if the bypass did open on start-up, that crud could be swept in through the bypass valve.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
But the oil still flows over a dirty filter media in bypass......

There is still oil flow going through the media which holds the trapped crud into the media pleats, unless the filter is completely clogged up (unlikely unless the motor it totally abused). Only time crud from the media might be swept in through the bypass valve is if that crud fell out of the media and collected near the bypass valve while the engine was off. Then when the engine is started, if the bypass did open on start-up, that crud could be swept in through the bypass valve.


IMO, it's a bad design. I like the way a MC filter's bypass works.