Are Turn Signal Switchback LEDs Legal?

[Klutch9]

A few months back I was walking back to my car in the parking lot and I walked past a guy who had some 360 degree turn signal bulbs on the front of his car. Even though they were 360 degrees, there was one angle I was looking - about a 45 degree angle from the corner of his car - in which I could not see the light very well at all. I think it's because even the so-called 360 degree LED bulbs still have a cylindrical shape with a flat top, meaning that there is a sharp, 90 degree transition between light-emitting surfaces. This is in sharp contrast (no pun intended) to an incandescent bulb, where the glass bulb takes on a rounded shape, and the filament(s) is visible from every angle. If you could get your hands on a rounded LED bulb, mimicking the shape of an incandescent bulb, i think your light output would be pretty decent, if not very good.

To me though, what it comes down to is this: LED bulbs in automotive applications thusfar are not really intended for reflector housings. Think about all of the LEDs you see on car exteriors: brake lamps, high-mount brake lamps, turn signals, marker lights, etc. The diode is almost always exposed outward, and is integrated into a specific spot. In other words, they are never used in reflector housing setups. Not that they can't be, but the housing would have to be designed specifically for LED bulbs (of which there are different types), just like housings/projectors vary quite a bit for halogen and HID setups.

 

[HerrStig]

I happen to have TWO cars of the same model, and the led upgrades I have installed in the one I drive are more visible in every way, even the sidemarkers. SuperbrightLED.com has plenty of information. CHeap ones from Peppyboy are NOT the way to go.

 

[ffhdriver]

Originally Posted By: Klutch9
A few months back I was walking back to my car in the parking lot and I walked past a guy who had some 360 degree turn signal bulbs on the front of his car. Even though they were 360 degrees, there was one angle I was looking - about a 45 degree angle from the corner of his car - in which I could not see the light very well at all. I think it's because even the so-called 360 degree LED bulbs still have a cylindrical shape with a flat top, meaning that there is a sharp, 90 degree transition between light-emitting surfaces. This is in sharp contrast (no pun intended) to an incandescent bulb, where the glass bulb takes on a rounded shape, and the filament(s) is visible from every angle. If you could get your hands on a rounded LED bulb, mimicking the shape of an incandescent bulb, i think your light output would be pretty decent, if not very good.

To me though, what it comes down to is this: LED bulbs in automotive applications thusfar are not really intended for reflector housings. Think about all of the LEDs you see on car exteriors: brake lamps, high-mount brake lamps, turn signals, marker lights, etc. The diode is almost always exposed outward, and is integrated into a specific spot. In other words, they are never used in reflector housing setups. Not that they can't be, but the housing would have to be designed specifically for LED bulbs (of which there are different types), just like housings/projectors vary quite a bit for halogen and HID setups.
I have CREE type 360 degree bulbs in my back-up lights. They can be seen from all angles and the almost 400% increase in lumens over the OEM bulbs is great.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: ffhdriver
Originally Posted By: Klutch9
A few months back I was walking back to my car in the parking lot and I walked past a guy who had some 360 degree turn signal bulbs on the front of his car. Even though they were 360 degrees, there was one angle I was looking - about a 45 degree angle from the corner of his car - in which I could not see the light very well at all. I think it's because even the so-called 360 degree LED bulbs still have a cylindrical shape with a flat top, meaning that there is a sharp, 90 degree transition between light-emitting surfaces. This is in sharp contrast (no pun intended) to an incandescent bulb, where the glass bulb takes on a rounded shape, and the filament(s) is visible from every angle. If you could get your hands on a rounded LED bulb, mimicking the shape of an incandescent bulb, i think your light output would be pretty decent, if not very good.

To me though, what it comes down to is this: LED bulbs in automotive applications thusfar are not really intended for reflector housings. Think about all of the LEDs you see on car exteriors: brake lamps, high-mount brake lamps, turn signals, marker lights, etc. The diode is almost always exposed outward, and is integrated into a specific spot. In other words, they are never used in reflector housing setups. Not that they can't be, but the housing would have to be designed specifically for LED bulbs (of which there are different types), just like housings/projectors vary quite a bit for halogen and HID setups.
I have CREE type 360 degree bulbs in my back-up lights. They can be seen from all angles and the almost 400% increase in lumens over the OEM bulbs is great.
I have improved my backup lights as well.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Klutch9
To me though, what it comes down to is this: LED bulbs in automotive applications thusfar are not really intended for reflector housings. Think about all of the LEDs you see on car exteriors: brake lamps, high-mount brake lamps, turn signals, marker lights, etc. The diode is almost always exposed outward, and is integrated into a specific spot. In other words, they are never used in reflector housing setups. Not that they can't be, but the housing would have to be designed specifically for LED bulbs (of which there are different types), just like housings/projectors vary quite a bit for halogen and HID setups.


It really is no coincidence that there are ZERO OEM applications of an LED "bulb" like what you see in the aftermarket. If it's an LED lamp on a vehicle (and many vehicles use them today), it's installed in a dedicated housing (and usually with separate discrete diodes forming a pattern).

Lighting regulations are the way they are for a reason. Physics doesn't change even for good intentions. I would concede that a backup lamp is the least critical of exterior lamps (and really only used for illumination for the driver), so a flood type beam with light scatter and possible dim spots is okay here (though still not conforming to FMVSS 108 regulations).

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I happen to have TWO cars of the same model, and the led upgrades I have installed in the one I drive are more visible in every way, even the sidemarkers. SuperbrightLED.com has plenty of information.


On occasion I see some juveniles that also stick those bulbs in their cars-it apparently makes them look "cool" in their minds. In the minds of everyone else they simply look foolish.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I happen to have TWO cars of the same model, and the led upgrades I have installed in the one I drive are more visible in every way, even the sidemarkers. SuperbrightLED.com has plenty of information.


On occasion I see some juveniles that also stick those bulbs in their cars-it apparently makes them look "cool" in their minds. In the minds of everyone else they simply look foolish.
Which bulbs are those - the ones used on just about every over the road truck these days? Changing turn signals to LED and ending up with the Civic "fast blinky" syndrome is far removed from proper LED upgrades such as those on most trucks, semitrailers, and busses in interstate commerce where the fine for a bulb out can be VERY steep. The Civic blinky can be solved with a solid state plug in flasher. Do traffic lights look "foolish" to you??? Almost ALL of them are now LED.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Which bulbs are those - the ones used on just about every over the road truck these days? Changing turn signals to LED and ending up with the Civic "fast blinky" syndrome is far removed from proper LED upgrades such as those on most trucks, semitrailers, and busses in interstate commerce where the fine for a bulb out can be VERY steep. The Civic blinky can be solved with a solid state plug in flasher. Do traffic lights look "foolish" to you??? Almost ALL of them are now LED.


I think you're trying to "not get it". None of the valid LED applications you have mentioned above is an LED "bulb" retrofitted into a filament reflector housing.

Trucks use LED turn signal modules/housings. Designed from the start with LEDs.

Traffic signal lights are engineered arrays of LEDs.

None of these are LED "bulb" retrofits, which is the topic of THIS thread.

But I think this horse has been beaten to death by now, and the original question has been answered. No, they are not legal. Yes, people will still use them. No, you will likely never get a citation for it.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Which bulbs are those - the ones used on just about every over the road truck these days? Changing turn signals to LED and ending up with the Civic "fast blinky" syndrome is far removed from proper LED upgrades such as those on most trucks, semitrailers, and busses in interstate commerce where the fine for a bulb out can be VERY steep. The Civic blinky can be solved with a solid state plug in flasher. Do traffic lights look "foolish" to you??? Almost ALL of them are now LED.


I think you're trying to "not get it". None of the valid LED applications you have mentioned above is an LED "bulb" retrofitted into a filament reflector housing.

Trucks use LED turn signal modules/housings. Designed from the start with LEDs.

Traffic signal lights are engineered arrays of LEDs.

None of these are LED "bulb" retrofits, which is the topic of THIS thread.

But I think this horse has been beaten to death by now, and the original question has been answered. No, they are not legal. Yes, people will still use them. No, you will likely never get a citation for it.
Perhaps you can show me a DOT regulation which specifically prohibits LEDs by type. I don't see any in the Mass code, so it must be Federal. While you're at it you could define "retrofit. Does that include halogen retrofits? THere are a number of companies supplying halogen marker and brake lamp replacements.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Perhaps you can show me a DOT regulation which specifically prohibits LEDs by type. I don't see any in the Mass code, so it must be Federal. While you're at it you could define "retrofit. Does that include halogen retrofits? THere are a number of companies supplying halogen marker and brake lamp replacements.


There is no DOT regulation which specifically prohibits LEDs by type. This has been discussed previously in this thread. FMVSS 108 does not include or disclude any lamp technology. What it DOES do, however, is set forth certain photometric requirements of all lamps (headlamps, side marker lamps, tail lamps, fog lamps, etc). You cannot meet these photometric requirements with LED retrofit "bulbs". If you can, you must demonstrate through photometric measurements that you can.

Again, will you be cited for it? Most likely not. Is it still illegal? Yes.

Halogen bulbs sold for side marker lamps should pass the photometric requirements for those lamps because the lamp filament is still in the same location, spatially, inside the bulb envelope. It's still a filament of D diameter and L length and it emits light in 360 degrees. The reflector of the lamp assembly distributes this light according to the photometric requirements of FMVSS 108.

Take note of nearly every single OEM automotive application of LED technology. I can't think of one that uses a 360 LED "bulb" like you see in the aftermarket. Every LED application that I can think of (including the truck and traffic signal light examples you used prior) use very specific arrays of individual diodes, arranged to meet the need for which they are designed.

"Retrofit" means using the improper replacement part. If your tail lamp requires a 3157 bulb, then anything other than a 3157 bulb is an improper replacement part. Just like with headlamps. A HID fitting an HB4 base is a retrofit because it's not an HB4 bulb. A 360 degree LED "bulb" that is supposed to mimick the size and shape of a 3157 bulb is not a 3157 bulb; it is therefore a "retrofit".

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Perhaps you can show me a DOT regulation which specifically prohibits LEDs by type. I don't see any in the Mass code, so it must be Federal.


In the case of your state, the code DOES revert back to federal regulation, and it calls out the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) specifically.

From Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 90, Section 7:

Quote:
No person shall sell, offer for sale or install on, or in, any motor vehicle or trailer, any component, device or substance, other than quartz-halogen lights, which does not comply with the federal motor vehicle safety standard, if any, established for such component, device or substance.


http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter90/Section7

Therefore, if it doesn't comply with 49 CFR 571.108, it's not legal for you to install in Massachusetts.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Perhaps you can show me a DOT regulation which specifically prohibits LEDs by type. I don't see any in the Mass code, so it must be Federal.


In the case of your state, the code DOES revert back to federal regulation, and it calls out the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) specifically.

From Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 90, Section 7:

Quote:
No person shall sell, offer for sale or install on, or in, any motor vehicle or trailer, any component, device or substance, other than quartz-halogen lights, which does not comply with the federal motor vehicle safety standard, if any, established for such component, device or substance.


http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter90/Section7

Therefore, if it doesn't comply with 49 CFR 571.108, it's not legal for you to install in Massachusetts.
"If any"

 

[HerrStig]

34-24-14 Specification for stop or signal lamps.- A stop lamp shall be plainly visible and understandable from a distance of one hundred feet (100') to the rear both during normal sunlight and at nighttime, and a signal lamp or lamps indicating intention to turn shall be visible and understandable during daytime and nighttime from a distance of one hundred feet (100') both to the front and rear. When a vehicle is equipped with a stop lamp or other signal lamps, the lamp or lamps shall at all times be maintained in good working condition. No stop lamp or signal lamp shall project a glaring or dazzling light. Violations of this section are subject to fines enumerated in Section 31-41.4-4. (Don't seem to see LEDs mentioned here)

 

[Hokiefyd]

"If any", as in, if a federal motor vehicle safety standard exists for such component. Is there a federal motor vehicle safety standard established for exterior lighting? Yes there is; it's 49 CFR 571.108.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Your state code clearly defines anything not meeting a federal motor vehicle safety standard as illegal. The information has been presented to you.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I have not seen a regulation which requires "parking lights" which is what the white light actually is, to be amber. My cars take the "57" in the standard metal socket, where do I get a pair?


Only in certain scenarios where the parking light and side marker light are not independent bulbs AND there is no amber lens for the side marker light.

Ie... my 08 Passat (2006-2010)... the corner bulb is an amber bulb as it functions as both parking light and side marker light (applies for both halogen & Bixenons, where it has a side opening for the side marker function). In US/Canada, it has an amber bulb. In Europe, it has a clear glass bulb (or blue tinted bulb for that "white" look)

The MK1 Touareg is another example. Similar scenario, but the housings are acutally different (Euro version have a wall, so there is no side marker)

Detail photo not the best, but you can see an amber bulb

The "MK2" Touareg does the same thing.... amber bulb in the corner... as with the Passat

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: sunfire
I think this applies to illegal HIDs installed in a low beam housing designed for halogen bulbs. By law the low beams must have a cutoff, a specific light pattern.


It's really much more than that. FMVSS 108 doesn't require a specific cutoff. Headlamp beam patterns MAY have a specific cutoff, but it's not required. You can see for yourself whether your vehicle's lamps are designed with a cutoff by looking at the headlamp assemblies themselves. Your Corolla's headlamps will have "VOR" at the very bottom, in faint lettering. This alerts the person aiming the lamp that there is a cutoff and that the right side of the horizontal cutoff be used to aim the lamp.

Originally Posted By: sunfire
This is not the case for LEDs in turn signal and tail light housings. There is no light pattern requirement for signal and tail lights.


Correct; there is no requirement for a "beam pattern" from signal lamps and tail lamps. But there still ARE various photometric requirements to be met. The way the law works is this: you must certify though photometric observation (measurement) that the lamp assembly (including the "bulb" you are using) conforms to the FMVSS 108 regulations. This isn't a case where the law must prove that you're OUT of conformance; you must prove that you are IN conformance.

Originally Posted By: sunfire
I'm not trying to make my car look flashy. LEDs are superior to filament bulbs in every way. They have higher tolerance for vibration, temperature changes, energy efficient, longer bulb life, etc.


But yet you're trying to change the color of your front running lamps to bright white? Why not use standard amber LEDs?

Originally Posted By: sunfire
The same government that makes the laws for bulbs in our cars will be phasing out incandescent bulbs in our homes in 2014. Incandescent bulbs are relics and therefore antiquated.


Completely different ball of wax; the lamps in our homes are not regulated automotive safety devices. The lamps on the exterior of your car are, and should be treated as such. LED bulbs, by the way, are in no way "disallowed" in automotive use. Many vehicle use LED lamp assemblies, for DRLs, tail lamps, side lamps, etc. The critical point, though, is that the assembly must be designed from the beginning as one accepting an LED "bulb". Automakers go through rigorous testing to demonstrate conformance of their lamps to the regulations; you cannot "eyeball" it on a YouTube video and say it's fine.

Again, you asked a simple question to which there is a simple answer. For much more information on the technical aspects of the regulations, I'd invite you to check out the Automotive Lighting forum at candlepowerforums.net. Real, bonefied, automotive lighting engineers hang out there and it's a wealth of good technical lighting information.

Here's a start: Car lighting upgrade thread. The guy is wanting opinions on upgrading his 2006 Corolla with various LED retrofit "bulbs".

I watched the two videos. I'm sure you'll agree that in the video showing his brake lights, the filament bulb in the right side is significantly brighter than the LED bulb in the left side.

The comments to turn signal video say all you should need to know (besides the legality issue). One person said he switched back to filament bulbs because the LEDs were too difficult to see during the day. Another person said he's put multiple LED "bulbs" in his vehicle because they keep failing.
Wit the information about specific products on the SuperBrightLEd.Com website about lumen output and light dispersion you can find a bulb which is as bright or brighter than stock and which will not melt your housing. You don't need a half - isotropic radiator in a tail light fitting. The first LED I used was a "center " taillight which is brighter than stock and has about 200K on it now. Turning filament lamps on and off shortens their life. You get RED out of a red LED even if the car lens is old and faded from the HEAT of a filament bulb.

 

[Eskimo]

What I like about the newer type of "switchback" lamp is that in between amber flashing, the lamp produces NO light. This gives a lot of contrast between flashing and not. (In the factory config, the amber running light stayed on between flashing)

I can tell from other driver's behavior now that the higher contrast between the flashing and being off gives them "assurance" that the turn signal is on as I approach them. (People waiting to turn right onto the road I'm travelling on, for example, used to be far more hesitant to do so as I approached)