Is a oil filter really effective after 7500 miles?

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Originally Posted By: Coprolite
Flinter, I wouldn't be surprised if your owner's manual says to use the oil filter for two changes. Since Honda introduced the maintenance monitor, it has had an A and B alert. One is for changing the oil and the other is for oil and filter.

If Honda can confidently say to use your filters for two oil changes, you can be comfortable running it for 10k miles. I changed them on my Hondas every other oil change and many others on this site have done it on many models with no damage. As noted above, the filters filter even better as the bigger holes get clogged up.



x2. The New Civic's Maintenance Minder does in fact recommend that you run the Honda oil filter for 2x intervals. Based on your driving style, those intervals can be anywhere from 6,000 - 10,000 miles x2. Obviously they know that the filter will be fine.

I personally use Mobil 1 oil filters for their full rating of 15,000 miles. In my 07 Civic, that was 2x 7,500 mile oil change intervals.
 
Honda only calls for an oil filter replacement with every "B" service, which is every other oil change.

Of course, the recommendation was made with the assumption that you are using an OE grade filter, so it would not wise to attempt this maintenance schedule while using an entry-level Proselect or Purolator classic filter.

I use M1 0w20 and usually OE filters (though I used a Fram ultra last time) on my friend's 2012 Civic. On her car, the intervals are about 11k per the Maint Minder.
 
IMO, yes. I would be more concerned with time rather than miles. I dont know how long the filter media would last before beginning to break down (all you would need is a small rip to make it useless) but I would guess at least a couple of years.
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: lockguy
I believe you guys when you say an oil filter can go that long, but if you shop around a little, quality filters can be had for around $3. Especially if you buy in bulk ie rockauto.. cheap insurance if you ask me.


What does price have to due with the efficiency and functionality of a oil filter?


nothing I suppose. Im looking at intervals and functionality, not price as the driving factor. I change my oil every 5k using tropartic and usually bosh or mann filters. 10k miles on one filter would make me a little nervous.

I guess if I really knew how much my filters were filling up, how much capacity etc, I would feel better but I don't. So for 3 bucks I put on a new filter. If I was unsure and filters were $15, I would still change it. As it is, its a no brainer to me.
 
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Honda has been doing this for a very long time. Even our 94 Integra which had 7500 mile oil change intervals, only recommended replacing the filter every other oil change! Cars like my whole for sob have a two year and up to 15,000 mile will change interval. No problem.

Remember the filtration is based upon building up the cake, and so you want to have a good number of particles trapped in the media in order to get optimize filtration. New filter to not work as well as filters that have some contaminants entrapped in them already. You're really balancing filtration efficiency against the pressure drop and flowrate through the media.

The only consideration then is either breakdown of the media or breakdown of the adhesives, both of which have proven themselves significantly for durations far longer than two years or 7500 or 15,000 miles!
 
So when a filter says 98% multipass efficiency for 15 micron size particle for instance, is it getting that from the start or is that after some of the "cake" build up?

Also, I was looking on the Purolator website awhile back, they recommend 3k change intervals on one of their filters, I believe the classic. Is that a marketing thing to get us to buy more or is there some science to it? Even a bosch distance plus is only recommended to 10k I think.

I honestly thought somewhere between 5-7k was a good interval for a filter, maybe even pushing it a little considering some recommendations.

I put both of my work vehicles through [censored] and back running 5-7k intervals with oil and filter being changed every time. I just cant see a reason to push it to 10k plus. Still seems unnecessary regardless of efficiency when the filters are so cheap.
 
Originally Posted By: lockguy

Also, I was looking on the Purolator website awhile back, they recommend 3k change intervals on one of their filters, I believe the classic. Is that a marketing thing to get us to buy more or is there some science to it? Even a bosch distance plus is only recommended to 10k I think.


Oh no! ... not this again.
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Go read this thread and you'll see the answers to this question.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2925484#Post2925484
 
Here's a question: If a filter has a better flow rate will the engine be better protected during start ups? I know Mobil 1 filters claim this...
 
^ flow rate is negligible at startup, due to the ADBV. If cold oil can't get through the media, the ADBV will momentarily open to allow oil to flow.
 
Originally Posted By: lockguy
So when a filter says 98% multipass efficiency for 15 micron size particle for instance, is it getting that from the start or is that after some of the "cake" build up?

Also, I was looking on the Purolator website awhile back, they recommend 3k change intervals on one of their filters, I believe the classic. Is that a marketing thing to get us to buy more or is there some science to it? Even a bosch distance plus is only recommended to 10k I think.

I honestly thought somewhere between 5-7k was a good interval for a filter, maybe even pushing it a little considering some recommendations.

I put both of my work vehicles through [censored] and back running 5-7k intervals with oil and filter being changed every time. I just cant see a reason to push it to 10k plus. Still seems unnecessary regardless of efficiency when the filters are so cheap.



Unless your engines have a lot of contamination input, i.e. inefficient or defective air filtration/PVC systems, a lot of soot generation, or oxidation residue (sludge) generation (short hopper), the average fitler is nowhere near full at the end of an OCi. Even a long one. In researching for this: Oil Filters I asked about how much the average filter was loaded at the end of an average OCI. Nobody could cite a particular study on that but these guys had seen a lot of fitlers so thereir educated guesses have some value. When I asked for an educated guess, I got either "under 50%" or "around 50%."

So far my own tests are bearing this out, as the P1 I am running, which has 12K miles so far, is still showing very low differential pressure. WIth oil at ~180F, it's showing 3-4 psi DP, which is under 50% of the listed bypass pressure of that filter. I have a growing stack of new filters that I will be testing for DP on this truck in a few months so I'll soon find out what various new filters looks like for starting DP.

Your question about efficiency: The rating is taken at the end of the test, when the filter reaches it's maximum differential pressure, but oil filters are not like air filters in that they don't change efficiency as much between the the first and last part of the test. They also don't take in as much junk as an air filter, nor as big a size of junk and don't really build up a "cake." The pores in the media do fill up and that aids filtration somewhat but when I asked the various oil filter people I have interviewed more or less your same question, they say an initial test is not commonly/routinely done but they have done it just to see and there may only be a percent or so difference between the efficiency with a new filter and one that is at the end of it's life.

To run an oil filter efficiency test you have to inject a certain amount of test dust (they use the same fine-grade test dust as is used for air filters) to be able to measure and count the particles before and after the filter. As with air filters, they just stop the test at some early point (measured by flow resistance and differential pressure) but the filter has been loaded to some degree.

A good wearing engine is a product of it's design and the lubricant. Modern engines, especially those with roller cams and no timing chains, once broken in, generate very little in the way of wear metals. An average oil filter can hold 16-18 grams of material before it reaches a high enough differential pressure that it begins to bypass often. If 18 grams of metal, about 6/10s of an ounce, came various parts in your engine over a normal OCI, you'd have other things to worry about besides whether your oil filter was full.

Much, most of what a filter catches is other stuff... dust that gets in through the intake somehow, carbon or soot, and oxidation residue. If you eliminate/minimize what comes in thru the intake, and eliminate the oxidation residue part by using a good oil and having a good driving routine, all you have left are combustion byproducts like carbon and soot (in a diesel). These can be minimized as well and the efficient combustion of a modern EFI engine does that... especially if the owner uses good fuel that leaves few deposits or ash. So when you get right down to it, there is very little for the oil filter to do with a modern EFI... if the outside inputs are low... and that's why oil filters can last a long time.

I have asked for an average engine contaminant generation rate from various industry people and they don't have one. If it's ever been tested, it would be specific to one engine in a particular situation. The only answer I get is "low" with the caveat that "low" only applies to engines with efficient air filtration systems. Almost everyone agrees that an efficient air filtration system is the most important part of controlling contamination inputs. Anything that comes into the combustion chamber is going to get into the oil. Those particles will cause wear, which creates more particles and an endless chain of wear is begun. In many ways, the air filter is the most important part of having clean oil, low wear and long life. An efficient oil filter comes into play more when there are high contamination rates from outside sources...such as from an inefficient or defective air filtration system.

On top of that some oil filters have higher than average capacity. As I said, from the specs I've gathered, the average sized oil filter can hold 16-18 grams. Some premium (syn) filters can hold around 30 grams before nearing their bypass limit.

As to FCI recommendations, most of them are based on a CYA. They want the engine manufacturer to take responsibility for that. If you see a 3K interval, there is usually a caveat nearby that says "or according to the OEM recommendation." A "worst case" situation is envisioned and then it's given a safety factor (in industry typically X2 or X3) and there you have it... CYA.
 
Originally Posted By: dino33
Here's a question: If a filter has a better flow rate will the engine be better protected during start ups? I know Mobil 1 filters claim this...


Yes, to a degree, but the oil viscosity is the controlling factor. Excessively thick oil WILL cause the filter to bypass (and to correct the guy above, that is not the job of the ADBV, the Anti Drain Back Valve, which prevents dry starts from the oil being siphoned out of the filter with the engine off).

Most everyone seems to have this mistaken fixation of "FLOW" when it comes to filters. The oil filter is just about the laast restrictive part of the lube system. The oil galleries downstream of the filter are way, way, way (did I say WAY!) more restrictive. Once the system is pressurized fully, the filter is not much restriction at all.

As I said, cold oil causes more restriction than anything, as I have observed with the differential pressure setup I am running on my truck. You also have to realize that some of what I am seeing is more than just the filter. One gauge reads the pressure of the oil within about four inches of the output of the oil pump. The other is on the downstream side of the filter, but that reading is also partly the restriction of the galleries and such downstream of the filter. If I could hook a sensor up to a more downstream point in the lube system but before the first place the oil feeds a bearing or has a pressure drop, I'm sure there would be some DP between there and the oil pump outlet.

On a cold start, with thick 10W30 oil @ say 40F, the DP is like 7-8 psi @ 2500 rpm. At 180F, that DP is down to 3-4 psi @ 2500 rpm... and these are with a filter that has 12K miles on it. I haven't had a new fitler on since I installed the gauges.

Filter flow is a non worry in most cases.
 
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
^ flow rate is negligible at startup, due to the ADBV. If cold oil can't get through the media, the ADBV will momentarily open to allow oil to flow.


You mean bypass valve, not ADBV? Two different valves.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
^ flow rate is negligible at startup, due to the ADBV. If cold oil can't get through the media, the ADBV will momentarily open to allow oil to flow.


You mean bypass valve, not ADBV? Two different valves.

I think what JA meant in both of those replies was,"One filter, One OCI!"
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

Most everyone seems to have this mistaken fixation of "FLOW" when it comes to filters. The oil filter is just about the laast restrictive part of the lube system. The oil galleries downstream of the filter are way, way, way (did I say WAY!) more restrictive. Once the system is pressurized fully, the filter is not much restriction at all.


Exactly ... to add, the general rule of thumb is that the engine's oiling circuit is ~15 times more restrictive than the oil filter.

Also, in an ideal situation (where the oil pump's pressure regulation valve works perfectly), you will not see a difference in the oil pressure after the filter unless the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.

Jim, this would be a good experiment with your delta-P setup to determine if this is true or not. In order to prove this, you should see the same oil pressure after the filter regardless of what oil filter is used as long as the filter's input pressure (ie, pump output) is below pressure relief point.

With a more restrictive filter (or more loaded up filter), you would see a little higher pump output pressure because it would take a little more to pump the same positive displacement of oil volume through the more restrictive system due to a more restrictive oil filter. Keep in mind that the pressure data needs to be taken at the same oil temp and engine RPM to see accurately this happening.

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

As I said, cold oil causes more restriction than anything, as I have observed with the differential pressure setup I am running on my truck. You also have to realize that some of what I am seeing is more than just the filter. One gauge reads the pressure of the oil within about four inches of the output of the oil pump. The other is on the downstream side of the filter, but that reading is also partly the restriction of the galleries and such downstream of the filter.


The gallery between the oil pump and oil filter is huge in most cases and won't cause hardly any pressure drop. I thought both your upstream and downstream pressure measurements were on the special adapter plate you're running between the engine and filter (?). If the downstream sensor is that close to the filter, you shouldn't be seeing any gallery delta-P there.
 
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I think what JA meant in both of those replies was,"One filter, One OCI! Use it to the Rated OCI!"
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Fixed it for ya.
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I think what JA meant in both of those replies was,"One filter, One OCI! Use it to the Rated OCI!"
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Fixed it for ya.
wink.gif


I slept in a Holiday Inn.
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


The gallery between the oil pump and oil filter is huge in most cases and won't cause hardly any pressure drop. I thought both your upstream and downstream pressure measurements were on the special adapter plate you're running between the engine and filter (?). If the downstream sensor is that close to the filter, you shouldn't be seeing any gallery delta-P there.





Yeah, both are on the adapter. I suppose I was speculating on gallery DP but it seems to me some of the downstream would be gallery related. I see your point, though, and won't die on that hill one way or another.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


The gallery between the oil pump and oil filter is huge in most cases and won't cause hardly any pressure drop. I thought both your upstream and downstream pressure measurements were on the special adapter plate you're running between the engine and filter (?). If the downstream sensor is that close to the filter, you shouldn't be seeing any gallery delta-P there.


Yeah, both are on the adapter. I suppose I was speculating on gallery DP but it seems to me some of the downstream would be gallery related. I see your point, though, and won't die on that hill one way or another.


With both pressure sensors on the filter adapter plate, you're getting very accurate filter only delta-P.
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