low-SAPS and high HTHS oils

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phlfly

phlfly

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VA
Hi,

I have a question about low-SAPS oils. What really do they do for emission and danger not to use them on your car like VW 2.0 TDi?
Why am I asking this? Since oil is never or almost never gone to emission system, just may be vapor as from oil separator. So why do they required this?
Also I want to use lower HTHS oil for my own reason, as I do oil changes every 5,000 miles anyway, so M1 syth 5-30 is good. In my opinion and after reading on this forum and different articles about higher HTHS oils, it does last longer, but after 10,000- 15,000 is getting as low as normal syth oil anyway.
Well please don’t kill me right the way, lets’ do more rational way.

One more question, why do the modern diesel engine use same oils as gasoline engines?


Thanks
 
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Low SAPS oils are there in order to extend the useful life of the latest cats and exhaust filters. So they do not reduce emissions in the short term but if they keep the parts in better condition, they do in the long term.

In the UK last year, Castrol reformulated a number of Edge and produced new Magnatec products to meet these low to medium SAPS specifications.

A friend recently had a guided tour round the UK Castrol plant and a lecture from one of their research staff. The researcher questioned the requirement for these lows SAPS oils and considered after their research and testing if they actually made much difference.

OTOH if you buy a car and the company who develop the engine advise a particular oil spec and you decide not to use it. Does the warm feeling of saving some bucks make up for the possible replacement of expensive parts. That's up to you to decide from little data.

Modern diesel engines are probably better made, diesel is probably better refined with less impurities and lube oils are just so much better today and that allows similar lube oils to be used for both petrol and diesel engines.

eddie
 
I see a good info. I don't see a reason to use high HTHS oil that is making mpg worse, motor is louder, since it's very rare to get to high temp (200 C), where this oil will full benefit.
I wonder if any low-SAPS oil is available but have normal HTHS.
 
Originally Posted By: phlfly
I see a good info. I don't see a reason to use high HTHS oil that is making mpg worse, motor is louder, since it's very rare to get to high temp (200 C), where this oil will full benefit.

Just because the temp in the sump (where the oil temp sensor is) doesn't exceed 200F, it doesn't mean there aren't other parts of the engine where the temp reaches much higher, even if you just drive normally.

If VW thought that using low HT/HS oil was a better idea for your engine, they would have specified it by suggesting an oil meeting ACEA C2 spec, for example.

High HT/HS is not just about extended drains. There are low HT/HS extended drain oils/specs out there, too.


Quote:

I wonder if any low-SAPS oil is available but have normal HTHS.

What does VW consider low-SAPS? Is it any oil with SA content of 0.8% and below? If so, an oil like M1 5w-30 has SA of 0.8% and HT/HS of 3.1 cP. Then there is M1 0w-20 AFE with SA of 0.8% and HT/HS of 2.7 cP. I'm sure there are plenty of others.

By the way, I am not suggesting one ignore engine mfg recommendations and use one of these oils. I am just answering your question.
 
Originally Posted By: phlfly
Hi,

I have a question about low-SAPS oils. What really do they do for emission and danger not to use them on your car like VW 2.0 TDi?
Why am I asking this? Since oil is never or almost never gone to emission system, just may be vapor as from oil separator. So why do they required this?


Automakers have to warranty the emissions control system for 150k miles, and specifying low-SAPS oils is a way of reducing the number of warranty claims from inoperative emissions systems.
 
Originally Posted By: phlfly
Also I want to use lower HTHS oil for my own reason,


If you do that in a VW diesel, prepare yourself to the possibility of buying new camshafts in the near future. I'm not sure that VW has fixed the problem with the diesel's soft cam lobes on the injector pumps. Just throwing it out there, as HT/HS is needed from mile 1 of the OCI not just later on.
 
Originally Posted By: phlfly
Why am I asking this? Since oil is never or almost never gone to emission system, just may be vapor as from oil separator. So why do they required this?

Another comment on this, if you read your owner's manual, it'll say that oil consumption up to 1 qt per 1000 miles is still considered "normal." The politics of this statement aside, should your engine happen to start consuming oil at any point, having low SAPs oil helps minimize damage to the DPF which the manufacturer has to warrant as part of the extended emissions warranty as the previous poster noted.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
phlfly, is the car in question under warranty still?

Yes it's. I'm still going to 5,000 miles oil changes. I did myself and used Moly 5W-30 specific for VW diesel 507.


So the camshaft has bigger gap between moving parts, so does required thicker oil?

But attention was due the turbo failures on VW Passat’s (most up North and Canada and during winter time only), and to go with "lighter" oils, at least during the cold weather, so my thinking is turbo failed due the bearing had insufficient/poor bearing lubrication when car was started in the morning, due this oil has high viscosity and too thick at cold conditions and VW is using smaller turbo, to eliminated gap in the throttle control. So I was trying to safe my turbo, by alternate oils, so in the Dec, Jan and FEB use the M1-30 and rest of the years 507 spec.
 
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Originally Posted By: phlfly
So I was trying to safe my turbo, by alternate oils, so in the Dec, Jan and FEB use the M1-30 and rest of the years 507 spec.

M1-30?
smile.gif
I think you mistyped something here.

VA doesn't get that cold in the winter. Are you sure the M1 you're using actually flows better at startup at those temps than the 507 oil you're using?
 
sorry mistype M1 5W-30.

Right I forgot to mention I want to get better flow. Well Pete, this is question to you, since you are expert here.

I can tell one story; my friend has BMW E90 328 with N52 engine. So it was doing a lot noise (I guess its valve lifters noise) during cold start up and long idle, so he switched from BMW oil to Castrol LL01 0W-30 didn't help, the M1 0w-40 didn't help either, it got worst, mpg down more noise, then he tried mM1 5w-30 and it’s all gone, no noise after already second oil change. So tell me where is a problem?
If you do research you will find actually all N52’s are making noise in the morning or long idle. BMW is saying its normal valve lifter, no fix for this. I don’t think it’s normal.
 
Originally Posted By: phlfly
Right I forgot to mention I want to get better flow. Well Pete, this is question to you, since you are expert here.

But what are we comparing exactly? You haven't told us which 507 oil you're using. Is it the Liqui Moly Top Tec 4200 5w-30 that you mentioned in another thread? You're not exactly forthcoming with information here.
smile.gif


Anyway, if it is this oil, then the M1 5w-30 is in fact a bit thinner at 32F (if you can trust the Widman graph tool which extrapolates data based on the 40C and 100C viscosity).

Quote:

I can tell one story; my friend has BMW E90 328 with N52 engine. So it was doing a lot noise (I guess its valve lifters noise) during cold start up and long idle, so he switched from BMW oil to Castrol LL01 0W-30 didn't help, the M1 0w-40 didn't help either, it got worst, mpg down more noise, then he tried mM1 5w-30 and it’s all gone, no noise after already second oil change. So tell me where is a problem?

We all can tell stories.
smile.gif
The M54 engine in my BMW is quiet with a 5w-40 LL01 rated oil. It was also quiet with GC 0w-30.

Sometimes the filter can be the culprit also, although I doubt it was the case in your friend's BMW since it most likely uses a cartridge insert.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: phlfly
Right I forgot to mention I want to get better flow. Well Pete, this is question to you, since you are expert here.

But what are we comparing exactly? You haven't told us which 507 oil you're using. Is it the Liqui Moly Top Tec 4200 5w-30 that you mentioned in another thread? You're not exactly forthcoming with information here.
smile.gif


Anyway, if it is this oil, then the M1 5w-30 is in fact a bit thinner at 32F (if you can trust the Widman graph tool which extrapolates data based on the 40C and 100C viscosity).

Quote:

I can tell one story; my friend has BMW E90 328 with N52 engine. So it was doing a lot noise (I guess its valve lifters noise) during cold start up and long idle, so he switched from BMW oil to Castrol LL01 0W-30 didn't help, the M1 0w-40 didn't help either, it got worst, mpg down more noise, then he tried mM1 5w-30 and it’s all gone, no noise after already second oil change. So tell me where is a problem?

We all can tell stories.
smile.gif
The M54 engine in my BMW is quiet with a 5w-40 LL01 rated oil. It was also quiet with GC 0w-30.

Sometimes the filter can be the culprit also, although I doubt it was the case in your friend's BMW since it most likely uses a cartridge insert.


yes it's Top Tec 4200 5W-30
 
Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
Originally Posted By: phlfly
Also I want to use lower HTHS oil for my own reason,


If you do that in a VW diesel, prepare yourself to the possibility of buying new camshafts in the near future. I'm not sure that VW has fixed the problem with the diesel's soft cam lobes on the injector pumps. Just throwing it out there, as HT/HS is needed from mile 1 of the OCI not just later on.


So do you know its for sure?
I thought it has eletronic injector, since its common rail diesel?
 
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Originally Posted By: phlfly
I see a good info. I don't see a reason to use high HTHS oil that is making mpg worse, motor is louder, since it's very rare to get to high temp (200 C), where this oil will full benefit.
I wonder if any low-SAPS oil is available but have normal HTHS.

There are a number of light ACEA C2 European 0W/5W-30 diesel oils with HTHSV values in the 2.9-3.1cP range. Don't know about availability in the States.

Since you don't see high oil temp's there is a good likelyhood that you may not need to run a 3.5cP oil. To know for sure you would need to install an oil pressure gauge to make sure you can maintain the minimum recommended OP that's specified for your engine. OP correlates with HTHSV so if you can maintain the minimum recommended OP on a lighter C2 oil then your actual operational viscosity for the way you operate your car will be more than adequate.
 
My Pathfinder has both normal and low HTHS on the approved list in the Workshop Manual.

Obviously this is specific to the 2.5 dci engine fitted to that vehicle.

But I am putting my money where my mouth is and putting A5/B5 oil in there next OCI, though due to it having a Dpf I have selected an A5/B5 oil that has the correct level of saps, 0.8.

As a lot of A5/B5 oils have saps of more than one usually.

The oil doesn't have C1,2,3 or 4 classification, perhaps due to the reduced HTHS meaning it is not compliant with other targets.

All the C1,2,3,4 oils I have looked at are all normal HTHS, A3,B3, B4.

My oil choice is Mobil Super 3000 X1 FE 5w30.

It is going in soon so in 5k I will send all my Pathfinder samples off to Blackstone.

Should be valuable data for those interested in running low HTHS oils in the same situation as the OP.
 
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