SDF 15w-40; 120 hours; JD3650

[Nikos_jd]

I have a tractor John Deere 3650series 1992year model
I send my oil for analysis in blackstone and diagnostics that :you have high iron and lead from they average,
The oil is SDF SPECIAL MOTOR OIL 15W40 from Same Deutz Fahr group.
Oil specification = API:CJ-4,CI-4+,CI-4,CH-4,CG-4,CF-4,CF /ACEA:E9,E7
the oil in test is good with TBN-Viscosity-flash point blackstone say no problem there.
Ι puzzling while the oil is in very good condition after 120HRS I have wear to my engine,
after from dialog with blackstone they say that
"The viscosity and TBN are good for 15W/40 oil. No problem there.
Our average file for that engine only has 3 samples in it so far so more iron is probably fine. We do not have a solid average file yet for that engine so you do not need to worry about iron. It and lead may show a little more wear than normal, but not bad.
Run 120 hours again on the next sample, then resample to see if wear metals are going up or down, or staying steady."

What you think about?

 

[volk06]

Post the UOA and the results and we maybe be able to tell you. Until we see the data from the UOA we can't help very much. All engines are going to shed some wear metals.

 

[Garak]

Yes, I agree with volk06. Posting the UOA would help.

Additionally, I'm not going to pound on Blackstone here, since they will be my first choice when I get some tests done. I don't know what the situation is in Europe with respect to UOA availability, but some companies do cater more to UOAs on fleet, farm, and other heavy duty diesel applications, whereas Blackstone might be a little more consumer grade oriented - and far more customer friendly.

Nice tractor, by the way. A buddy of mine bought a brand new one from the same series a couple years ago. He's trying to turn the interior into a mobile home entertainment system. Oh well, he's nuts about audio, he thinks I'm nuts about oil.

 

[miniac007]

How about silicon in the sample too ? Air filter problem ?

 

[Nikos_jd]

The oil analysis
ALUMINUM =3 AVERAGES=3
CHROMIUM =1 AVERAGES=1
IRON =58 AVERAGES=14
LEAD =7 AVERAGES=2
TIN =2 AVERAGE=1
COPPER =18 AVERAGE=10
MOLYBDENUM =50 AVERAGE=104
NICKEL =2 AVERAGE=1
MANGANESE =1 AVERAGE=0
TITANIUM =0 AVERAGE=0
POTASSIUM =1 AVERAGE=1
BORON =14 AVERAGE=108
SILICON =8 AVERAGE=4
SODIUM =5 AVERAGE=4
CALCIUM =1288 AVERAGE=2230
MAGNESIUM =1346 AVERAGE=504
PHOSPHORUS =1183 AVERAGE=1119
ZINC =1421 AVERAGE=1355
ΒARIUM =0 AVERAGE=0

SUS VISCOSITY 210F=72.2 AVERAGE=68-82
CST VISCOSITY 100C=13.52 AVERAGE=12.4-16.3
FLASH POIONT F =420
FUEL = WATER =0
TBN=7.6

 

[miniac007]

You have the double of silicon than the average so change air filter, and don't clean it with compressed air. That can explain excessive iron.

Also check your oil pressure: do you have an oil pressure gauge on your tractor ? insuffisant oil pressure can explain excessive lead and cooper from crankshaft and rod bearing. Insuffisant oil pressure can be caused by excessive wear in bearing.

 

[volk06]

Originally Posted By: miniac007
You have the double of silicon than the average so change air filter, and don't clean it with compressed air. That can explain excessive iron.

Also check your oil pressure: do you have an oil pressure gauge on your tractor ? insuffisant oil pressure can explain excessive lead and cooper from crankshaft and rod bearing. Insuffisant oil pressure can be caused by excessive wear in bearing.


The silicon is still very low and isn't the cause of the high wear.

You can't determine much from just one UOA. Best course of action would to be to run a few shorter OCI and do uoa to see if this is just 1 uoa showing high numbers or if there is a potential problem.

 

[Nikos_jd]

This oil is first time on the engine,
the older oil is Petronas Urania LD7 15w40
API CI/ ACEA E7 and this oil We have not ever sent for analysis,
The tractor is not mine its my cousin,and its first time for analysis with the first new oil.

 

[miniac007]

Check oil pressure, simple and fast...

 

[dnewton3]

Moving to UOAs. Updated thread title for proper convention.

 

[Jim Allen]

I agree with Blackstone's comments. Certain things, iron & lead, are a bit high but not high enough to warrant any major action. Looking at a UOA right after switching oil brands doesn't offer the best picture either, because the new oil is still carrying a percentage of the old. The new oil may have higher detergent qualities as well and may be washing trapped old contamination out of the engine. The silicon isn't high enough to worry about IMO, but the advice on making sure the air filtration system is at peak performance (All hoses and ducts tight and no blow-thrus on the filter). In the dirty world of farm tractors (I run two myself) a top notch air filter is key to long engine life. The air filter is the biggest "door" by which outside contaminants can enter the engine and they can cause rapid wear. 8 PPM isn't a big deal, but it just seemed that way because Blackstone's data base only had three oil samples from your type of engine... all of which had low, 4 PPM silicon. The caution values for a few of the tractors I have on file is around 15 PPM of silicon and maybe that will help you keep things in perspective.

Also, what oil filters are you using? You did not list the insolubles number from the UOA. A high number there could be telling. If you are using a John Deere filter, I doubt this is an issue but there are substandard oil filters out there with low efficiency that could skew wear metals up.

 

[Nikos_jd]

First up all thanks all for your answer.
The air filter is all new now after 120hrs with same SDF new oil and the oil filter is from MANN W936/4.

 

[miniac007]

Lead and copper are over average which can be a sign of bearing malfunction. I still advice you should check oil pressure quickly.

Maybe it is normal, may be it is just an insoluble stucked some hours in a bearing and gone now. But if you have a starting bearing problem, you should investigate quickly before losing your engine.

Monitoring the oil pressure is the best and inexpensive way to monitor the bearing health.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: miniac007
Lead and copper are over average which can be a sign of bearing malfunction. I still advice you should check oil pressure quickly.


You are way, way overstating this, miniac.

For one thing, the averages are based on three (3) samples in the Blackstone database.

Second, Blackstone, who processes THOUSANDS of sample per year, isn't worried.

Third, in looking over the various diesel engine manufacturers specs, they don't start worrying about iron until around 100 PPM and lead over 10-15 PPM. The Utah Transit Systems condemnation limits (Google "LubeDocs") for normal Cummins engines are 105 and under; 105-160 is abnormal and critical over 160. Lead is normal under 25 PPM and abnormal from 25-60 PPM. Their number for Detroit Diesel Iron is normal under 120 PPM and lead is normal under 40 PPM. Power Stroke Diesel is normal under 75 PPM and Lead is Normal under 15 PPM. Their Generic Diesel Engines numbers are 75 PPM of Iron and under is Normal and normal Lead is under 30 PPM. Google "Tables on Oil Analysis" and you will find a paper from a lecture that list other generic Iron and lead at
Sure, you'd like to see lower readings and a person can work towards making that happen, but it critical not to overreact... specially when these numbers are clearly under limits.

 

[miniac007]

I agree Jim, I am paranoid

Iron is not a matter of worry, I am only wondering on lead and cooper.

This CJ-4 oil has only 120h, which is not much, and no sign of acidification so there is no reason to be 7 sigma over average lead, even on 3 samples...

With a 1000h OCI with CJ-4, ok, should be normal, but for 120h on a engine whith finished break in, this is strange for my paranoid mind

So, 99% there is nothing, but for 1%, I will personnaly check the oil pressure to see if something is really wrong in bearings, to sleep better

Because it is simple and easy, and maybe there is already a gauge on the tractor... If not, it costs 20$, less than oil analysis

 

[miniac007]

How is used your tractor ? Do you start it for 8 hours of work, or do you often start and stop it ? In this case, if you have a poor lubrification at startup, it could explain your results. In this case, may be using a 10w40 should improve it.

 

[Nikos_jd]

The tractor is most working at spring for tith and rotavator about 200acres.