For short OCI: CF-4, CG-4 or CI-4 ?

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miniac007

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Hi all,

I have a lot of classic cars, trucks and tractors, which are not running a lot. But UOA show that the oil cannot be kept in sump more than 1 or 2 years before acidification. So I need to change oil every year but sometime with only 500 miles or 50h ...

I use HDEO to have the same oil in all vehicule and good prices, in gasoline or diesel, and I want the maximum protection for my engines, saving 0.5 MPG is not a problem. Available grades here in dino are 10w30 or 10w40. 15w40 is not possible with swedish winters.


So, for such short OCIs, is there any difference in using a CF-4, CG-4, CI-4 or CJ-4 oil, or those oils have the same protection propreties when new, and the only difference will be in long OCI ?

Thanks !
 
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Wow, acidification in just a year! I have a tractor that sits most of the time, getting between 30 and 70 hours a year and the oil was still strong after 3 years, though the soot was higher than I like. If you oil is becoming unusable after only a year, I would suggest going with an oil that has a very high TBN. Nix the CF-4, CC-4 idea.. they are weak, old formulations... and use either a CI-4 or CJ-4. THe CI-4 may have an edge with a higher initial TBN. I leave the viscosity to you but given what I know about Sweden, 10W30 is probably the best choice generally ( not knowing the specifics of your classics)

Have you ever posted one of your bad UOAs here. If so, I'd like to see one. We can learn as much from a bad UOA as a good one and it would be an interesting counterpoint to the largely good UOAs we see from oils used for long time period. There is a UOA from some 30 year old oil in a Farmall tractor that turned out to still be usable (it wasn't but could have been). Perhaps it's environmental conditions, the type of vehicle, how it's used or some other factor that is affecting your UOAs and it would be interesting to try and figure it out.
 
Hi Jim,

I have posted HERE the UOA of my valmet tractor. In 2 years and only 118hr, the TBN fell down from 10 to 2.3, and the lead seems high compared to other ppm values, so I suspect beginning of acidification.

May be it is an oil problem, may be time problem, I don't know. I just begin with UOA as there are unaffordable in Europe for private use... And I just discovered I can send my samples to USA with a reasonable cost...

I am waiting for my truck UOA with a better CI-4 and TBN=15 oil, and see. But of course, CI-4 are more expensibe than CF-4, so my question, as I need 80 liters/year if I do a yearly OCI as the manuals say...
 
OK, seeing that make sit a bit more clear.

I think you are overreacting to the TBN. TBN depletion is highly variable and not linear. It could hold for a long time in the area where it is and Blackstone usually doesn't condemn the oil until it gets to about 1. What is the factory oil change interval? The insolubles were pretty low on the tractor, which is an indication of soot load. Blackstone doesn't test for soot by itself but soot is a part of the insolubles... which at 0.2% is pretty low. The point is that one element of the factory OCI is soot load. My old Farmall 826 (Neuss D358 engine) has a 100 hour interval, which was based on the oils of 1970 when the tractor was built. My three year interval Blackstone report) ran it out to about 126 hours and my insols at 0.4% with TBN at 9.3 with a CJ-4 oil. The engine had about 8300 hours on it at the time. A previous report from another lab taken at 100 hours (2 years) with the same load of oil a year earlier showed a TBN of 11.24, soot at 0.8 (caution at 2.5%), Nitration at 10.3 (25 is the caution) and oxidation at 21.5 (50 is the caution).

Frankly, I think the oil in that report is pretty weak and may be why it's going south faster than you like. You can crunch the numbers for yourself, but it might be cheaper to start off with a more robust CI-4 orCJ-4 and be able to run it lots longer than to have to change the oil at a shorter interval.

I think that Q8 tractor oil might have gone another season but would have surely been used up by that point. But I agree, as long as you are using that particular oil, you are going to have to run a shorter interval than if you were using a more robust oil.
 
Thank you for comments. I am finishing my Q8 stock and I will switch to another anyway. The Q8 is not price competitive now, and you confort me in thinking that's not a so good oil...

It is very nice to see your samples keep a good TBN after several years, so my problem should be an oil problem.

As you say, the other ppm are OK, just TBN and lead are the problem.

How was the fuel dilution in your samples ?

I will try a CI-4 in 10w40, and see. I Cannot have a CI-4 in 10w30 at a good price... Just CG-4 max...
 
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Yes, I have used Total Rubia TIR 8600 in my truck with TBN around 15, and waiting for the UOA results now.

But I found it in France... The problem in Sweden is to find an oil less expensive than gold... For now, I have found some german oils affordable but the choice is limited because of the possibility or not for delivery to Sweden...
 
TBN falling that quickly most certainly would be cause to investigate deeper. But don't assume that acid is rampant simply because TBN has dropped.

Next few times you get UOAs, pay for the TBN and also get TAN numbers as well. That gives a much clearer picture as to what's going on.


I would agree that perhaps a CI-4 with higher TBN is perhaps a good place to start, if the TAN is unknown.

What kind of fuel is being used? Is it a high-sulphur fuel?
 
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Originally Posted By: miniac007
Thank you for comments. I am finishing my Q8 stock and I will switch to another anyway. The Q8 is not price competitive now, and you confort me in thinking that's not a so good oil...

It is very nice to see your samples keep a good TBN after several years, so my problem should be an oil problem.

As you say, the other ppm are OK, just TBN and lead are the problem.

How was the fuel dilution in your samples ?

I will try a CI-4 in 10w40, and see. I Cannot have a CI-4 in 10w30 at a good price... Just CG-4 max...


Fuel dilution on the 100 hour sample was 0.9% and on the 126 hour it was listed by Blackstone as TR (Trace). That is as much due to the way this tractor is used as anything. It doesn't do light work at all and isn't used at all during the winter. 98% of the time, when it's working, it WORKING for at least a couple of hours and usually at a substantial load. Let us know how the 10W40 works out.
 
Originally Posted By: skellyman
My thought would be fuel , is your fuel a high sulpher ?


It is 50ppm max in sweden so quite low
 
50 ppm vs the 15 ppm we have in the U.S. , sorry but your using a high sulpher fuel, that said your going to need to look for oils with a much higher TBN than the usual Rotella Delvac or Delo oils.
 
50ppm is still very low sulfur, a CJ4 let alone a CI4 will handle it easily. CJ4 is rated for up to 500ppm and CI4 for up to 5000ppm!
And for this gentleman fom Sweden Delo or Rotella are not "usual oils".

Charlie
 
Agreed.

IIRC, the LSD fuel was 500ppm limited, correct? At least here in North America.

The ULSD fuel here is 15ppm limited.

So, 50ppm of sulphur really isn't that much, overall, and WELL within any ability of a modern diesel API rated oil to handle it.


The degredation of the TBN is likely elsewhere, if the fuel data is correct. And without knowing TAN, the TBN is really only 1/2 the picture. Low TBN does not assure high TAN.
 
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I thought it was 50 ppm but now I found it is 10 ppm since 2008 :http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Miljo/Luftkvaliet-i-tatorter/Miljoklassade-branslen/

So it is definitivly not a sulfur problem
smile.gif


I have just received the UOA of my lorry, and its oil TBN fell from 15 to 10 in 4 years, with the same diesel.

So oil problem or measure problem...
 
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