Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500

[PandT]

I have a Generac GP5500 with the 390F engine - Portable Generator - Air Cooled
I have the kit (not yet installed) for Tri-Fuel but I intend to use Natural Gas exclusivly.
Owners manual says: Oil, every 100 Hrs. - Valves, every 100 Hrs.
Splash lubrication

Here's the scenario:
I would like to extend that - Assume full synthetic Amsoil of unknown name/type
Drill into block, 2 places, install oil supply and drain fittings (assume correctly done)
Mod: Small oil pump, filter, holding tank (unknown size, assume min. 1 gallon)
Questions, if anyone has the time or inclination:
What are the byproducts that I would need to be concerned with?
Fuel dilution?
Soot formation?
Other, unknown to me at this time - Still reading BITOG
Will the valves really go out of adjustment in 100 Hrs.?

Searches have proved unfruitful (before you ask) but I am probably asking the wrong questions since someone must have tried this wacky thing before.

 

[Quest]

splash lubrication == there's no way for you to add external oil pump and make it into a pressurised lubrication system, citing that there's not even an oil passage within the block to distribute the oil to the crankshaft, big end bearing journal, etc.

Bottomline: you are indeed asking the wrong question if you ask me.

Q.

 

[Colt45ws]

Burning Natural Gas and running Amsoil you could probably at least double the book spec with no other changes. Natural gas does not foul the oil as bad as gasoline.

You could put a fitting in the drain plug hole, pump the oil through a filter and dump it back into the engine through the fill tube. For bonus points, run it through a full flow first, then through a bypass.
But, thats a lot of expense. I think just going with what you have will do plenty fine.

 

[PandT]

Originally Posted By: Quest
splash lubrication == there's no way for you to add external oil pump and make it into a pressurised lubrication system, citing that there's not even an oil passage within the block to distribute the oil to the crankshaft, big end bearing journal, etc.

Bottomline: you are indeed asking the wrong question if you ask me.


You quoted the facts as I gave them but questioned the same facts.
Splash lubrication - No pressurized oiling
I have not asked the wrong questions, you have answered the wrong questions
No offence intended

 

[PandT]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Burning Natural Gas and running Amsoil you could probably at least double the book spec with no other changes. Natural gas does not foul the oil as bad as gasoline.


Yes, that is one factor in my thinking but what is moving me is laziness, I don't want to have to change it so often (100 Hrs. offends me intellectually). every four days, are they serious? - This is all assuming continuous running, surely not a common occurrence considering the 'Home Owner' build quality and light duty specifications but I want to play with it - It's a toy and what if the world ends and that is all I have (My pet scenario). Assuming the Natural Gas is still running, which, for this discussion must be assumed and I want to run it for extended periods which is the question in it's essence. For better or worse, I would really like to know some facts about shear, soot, fuel dilution and whatever else I don't know about yet since I am not schooled in small engines with slash lubrication.

Quote:
You could put a fitting in the drain plug hole, pump the oil through a filter and dump it back into the engine through the fill tube. For bonus points, run it through a full flow first, then through a bypass.
But, thats a lot of expense. I think just going with what you have will do plenty fine.


You are entirely correct except that, you have made the assumption that I care about the expense and the possible return on the investment/initial cost.

This is not about what it would cost to implement or maintain, it's about extending the service interval, nothing more, nothing less.

While cost is always a factor, that is NOT my main concern.
Assume That - I am LAZY and I don't want to change oil at 100 Hrs. cost not being an object and environmental factors don't exist.
What would my concerns be if I wanted the engine to last forever - Just the oil here, no other considerations are allowed in this discussion unless they have a direct relationship to the proposed scenario.

 

[Colt45ws]

If you are serious, I want to see this done. I would also throw on a small stacked plate cooler to keep the oil temps reasonable since if this is splash lubed it also likely air cooled.
With amsoil, really good filtering, cooling and maybe a 1 gal external sump it would probably never need changed as long as every time it is run it gets up to temp for awhile.

 

[lars11]

interesting idea.
1. just by increasing the oil volume you will get linear increased oci. so circulating an extra gallon will give at least 5-10 times longer intervals depending on sump size now.
2. I think that a large external sump will reduce heat just enough to make the oil last longer, a dedicated cooler may be a bit much. Remeber that the oil in the engine must be hot to splash.
3. Filtration will help with metal particles and soot
4. What kind of pump will you use? I have no idea what to get, but you don't want too much capacity

Another upside would be if you say used a connecion that fit directly to a gallon can, doing the 20 days oci would be super simple too, just switch to a new gallon can of oil!

I would too like to see the setup if you do it. You should at least be able to extende oci a lot, question is how much?

 

[AandPDan]

Amsoil or not, it's an air cooled engine with splash lubrication. It's going to shear the oil. Yes, with a bigger capacity you could likely extend that interval some. You would have to "on-the-fly" pull out what ever is in the crankcase and replace it with the same quantity so that the level is maintained. You could constantly circulate the oil from the drain through the filler using a small pump/filter/cooler setup.

I think the oil problems can be overcome.

The valves ARE a different story. Sooner or later they will need adjusting.

 

[Cujet]

Larger oil capacity is a very common way to extend engine life. In fact, an unnamed German company used this very method in air cooled, high performance engines that wore out quickly... With excellent results. Often going from 4 quarts capacity to 12 or more!

I have a lister CS, diesel generator. It's oil sump is modest in size. I installed (aircraft style) AN fittings on the sump and hook to an additional tank. I also use a 0.5 micron Motorguard bypass filter as the only oil filter.

Interestingly, the tank settles out contaminates, instead of them remaining in the engine sump.

 

[meep]

It's a lot of work, but I like the concept.

the hard part I think would be handling the oil pump. oil will be thick when cold. you won't need a lot of pressure, just enough to get through the filter. if flow rate is low, when hot it won't be too taxing but when cold a pump will have to deal with a lot more stress if it's not designed for it.

one thought is to include a thermal sensor, such as a t-stat for an attic fan that would delay pump turn-on (assuming it's electric) to not pump until the bottom of the engine is at least warm... 120F+.

Another possibility would be both to A) put the filter return in the OHV/OHC cover.... which will promote more consistent engine temps, provide some miniscule cooling to the head, and promote warm oil temps to help offset fuel dilution. B) augment THAT with an oil cooler. You could even C) weld/bond in a few runs of copper oil line around the head or cyl if you were interested in playing with some liquid cooling. (Easier win an old flathead).

Not sure what sort of pump would be best. I have personally used older axial-cartridge-type fuel injection pumps to pump oil at room temps and it did fine for short bouts, and from a viscocity perspective it'd appreciate hot, thinner oil, but IDK if it'd appreciate 180F oil temps running through it. You could start at summit--- who knows what they have. an electric coolant pump might also be workable-- IF it can handle the pressure needed to handle a filter. perhaps a belt-driven PS pump. you could belt it down to low rpm since you don't need/want crazy flow rates, and they're pretty tolerant of what you put in them. yep--- that's where I'd start if it were me.

 

[meep]

what will the duty cycle of this be? 24/7 around the clock?

 

[lexus114]

Well, as long as it will still burn gasoline and not just natural gas. Because if there was a real problem and they shut off the gas service you would be screwed.

 

[PandT]

I am serious and I do plan on it. I will post pictures. I don't know where it will go yet but I am not looking at a cooler at this time.

 

[PandT]

Originally Posted By: lars11
interesting idea.
4. What kind of pump will you use? I have no idea what to get, but you don't want too much capacity.


Sump Capacity is 1.06 Liters
I was guessing that I should be looking at about 8 oz/min (29.574 cc/min) but I have several concerns that I am to ignorant to answer myself at this time. The exact type will be dictated by flow/pressure/temperature - You got the idea but I am eyeing gear pumps.

I am currently thinking it will need to be much less.

 

[PandT]

Originally Posted By: AandPDan
Amsoil or not, it's an air cooled engine with splash lubrication. It's going to shear the oil. You could constantly circulate the oil from the drain through the filler using a small pump/filter/cooler setup.

I think the oil problems can be overcome.

The valves ARE a different story. Sooner or later they will need adjusting.


Agreed, do you know anything about shear in small engines? I mean, I understand what it is and what it does but in small air cooled, splash lubricated engines there seems to be a blank where actual facts should reside.

 

[PandT]

Originally Posted By: Cujet

I have a lister CS, diesel generator. It's oil sump is modest in size. I also use a 0.5 micron Motorguard bypass filter as the only oil filter.
Interestingly, the tank settles out contaminates, instead of them remaining in the engine sump.


Sorry for the hack job on your post but -- Lister...

The low speed (~750 RPM) single or dual cylinder diesels?
[censored], I wanted one, spent a great deal of time/energy into research and then the EPA made them illegal in the US - I am still bitter over that. - Any pics??? or Vids???

 

[PandT]

Originally Posted By: meep
It's a lot of work, but I like the concept.


I don't think it will take that much actual work or I would not do it since the return on the investment is going to be negative numbers. I have no idea what the expected lifetime is of one of these generators but if I approach it withing 5%, I will be surprised. It is a 'storm use only' type model but still, I only plan on using it when the power is out and that, dear readers, says it all. I will probably get more time on it testing than using it in for real needs.

Originally Posted By: meep
The hard part I think would be handling the oil pump. oil will be thick when cold. you won't need a lot of pressure, just enough to get through the filter. if flow rate is low, when hot it won't be too taxing but when cold a pump will have to deal with a lot more stress if it's not designed for it. One thought is to include a thermal sensor, such as a t-stat for an attic fan that would delay pump turn-on (assuming it's electric) to not pump until the bottom of the engine is at least warm... 120F+.


Not a chance, simplicity=reliability but a nice try nevertheless (Place Smiley Here)

Originally Posted By: meep
Another possibility would be both to A) put the filter return in the OHV/OHC cover.... which will promote more consistent engine temps, provide some miniscule cooling to the head, and promote warm oil temps to help offset fuel dilution.


You have my interest/attention here

Originally Posted By: meep
B) augment THAT with an oil cooler. You could even C) weld/bond in a few runs of copper oil line around the head or cyl if you were interested in playing with some liquid cooling. (Easier win an old flathead).{/QUOTE]

Not a chance, simplicity=reliability but a nice try nevertheless (Place Smiley Here)

Not sure what sort of pump would be best. I have personally used older axial-cartridge-type fuel injection pumps to pump oil at room temps and it did fine for short bouts, and from a viscocity perspective it'd appreciate hot, thinner oil, but IDK if it'd appreciate 180F oil temps running through it. You could start at summit--- who knows what they have. an electric coolant pump might also be workable-- IF it can handle the pressure needed to handle a filter. perhaps a belt-driven PS pump. you could belt it down to low rpm since you don't need/want crazy flow rates, and they're pretty tolerant of what you put in them. yep--- that's where I'd start if it were me.


Ah, now we actually hit the real question. - Where I wanted it to go instead of where he was going but I liked his thought process so I stole it shamelessly.

Is it really worth it to pump the oil or simply put a tank over the engine and use valves to drain/fill the crankcase. I want the oil pump but I need to prove to myself that it is not worse than doing it with valves, I am concerned with fuel dilution over time. Just what oil temp/duration is required for the fuel to evaporate out? Anyone have facts?

 

[PandT]

Originally Posted By: meep
what will the duty cycle of this be? 24/7 around the clock?


Unless the world ends, no. And even then, the valves have to be done.

Think, experiment with pictures and smug self satisfaction that when everyone else uses their oil up and ruins their engines I will still be able to pump gas from a station.. Not a truly credible scenario but hey, I like it.

 

[PandT]

Originally Posted By: lexus114
Well, as long as it will still burn gasoline and not just natural gas. Because if there was a real problem and they shut off the gas service you would be screwed.


As I said previously, I have a tri-fuel kit that I haven't installed yet - Need to pay a plumber to run the 3/4" natural gas line through the concrete wall first but hey, who wants to read through a bunch of rambling crud - no sarcasm involved, I do it myself. I should be able to run propane also but I don't expect any of that to be available either.

It's kind of a thought experiment with pictures that have as a primary supposition that you do no harm, kind of like a doctor that says, well, bionics sounded so cool and the patient can still walk, right?

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: PandT
Originally Posted By: Cujet

I have a lister CS, diesel generator. It's oil sump is modest in size. I also use a 0.5 micron Motorguard bypass filter as the only oil filter.
Interestingly, the tank settles out contaminates, instead of them remaining in the engine sump.


Sorry for the hack job on your post but -- Lister...

The low speed (~750 RPM) single or dual cylinder diesels?
[censored], I wanted one, spent a great deal of time/energy into research and then the EPA made them illegal in the US - I am still bitter over that. - Any pics??? or Vids???

No pics of the sump attachment underneath. But they are simple AN fittings, with surplus aircraft plumbing and a small tank. Circulation works through natural oil movement. The oil does circulate through the tank without problems and the tank warms up at the same rate the engine does.

I used a Grundfos water pump, which is located just under the radiator. The engine is currently a "stand alone" package, but will eventually be in a generator shed with the radiator on the wall of the shed.