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#2966807 - 04/08/13 10:51 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: Cujet]
PandT Offline


Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Springfield, Ma.
Originally Posted By: Cujet

I have a lister CS, diesel generator. It's oil sump is modest in size. I also use a 0.5 micron Motorguard bypass filter as the only oil filter.
Interestingly, the tank settles out contaminates, instead of them remaining in the engine sump.


Sorry for the hack job on your post but -- Lister...

The low speed (~750 RPM) single or dual cylinder diesels?
[censored], I wanted one, spent a great deal of time/energy into research and then the EPA made them illegal in the US - I am still bitter over that. - Any pics??? or Vids???
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#2966818 - 04/08/13 11:32 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: meep]
PandT Offline


Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Springfield, Ma.
Originally Posted By: meep
It's a lot of work, but I like the concept.


I don't think it will take that much actual work or I would not do it since the return on the investment is going to be negative numbers. I have no idea what the expected lifetime is of one of these generators but if I approach it withing 5%, I will be surprised. It is a 'storm use only' type model but still, I only plan on using it when the power is out and that, dear readers, says it all. I will probably get more time on it testing than using it in for real needs.

Originally Posted By: meep
The hard part I think would be handling the oil pump. oil will be thick when cold. you won't need a lot of pressure, just enough to get through the filter. if flow rate is low, when hot it won't be too taxing but when cold a pump will have to deal with a lot more stress if it's not designed for it. One thought is to include a thermal sensor, such as a t-stat for an attic fan that would delay pump turn-on (assuming it's electric) to not pump until the bottom of the engine is at least warm... 120F+.


Not a chance, simplicity=reliability but a nice try nevertheless (Place Smiley Here)

Originally Posted By: meep
Another possibility would be both to A) put the filter return in the OHV/OHC cover.... which will promote more consistent engine temps, provide some miniscule cooling to the head, and promote warm oil temps to help offset fuel dilution.


You have my interest/attention here

Originally Posted By: meep
B) augment THAT with an oil cooler. You could even C) weld/bond in a few runs of copper oil line around the head or cyl if you were interested in playing with some liquid cooling. (Easier win an old flathead).{/QUOTE]

Not a chance, simplicity=reliability but a nice try nevertheless (Place Smiley Here)

[quote=meep]Not sure what sort of pump would be best. I have personally used older axial-cartridge-type fuel injection pumps to pump oil at room temps and it did fine for short bouts, and from a viscocity perspective it'd appreciate hot, thinner oil, but IDK if it'd appreciate 180F oil temps running through it. You could start at summit--- who knows what they have. an electric coolant pump might also be workable-- IF it can handle the pressure needed to handle a filter. perhaps a belt-driven PS pump. you could belt it down to low rpm since you don't need/want crazy flow rates, and they're pretty tolerant of what you put in them. yep--- that's where I'd start if it were me.


Ah, now we actually hit the real question. - Where I wanted it to go instead of where he was going but I liked his thought process so I stole it shamelessly.

Is it really worth it to pump the oil or simply put a tank over the engine and use valves to drain/fill the crankcase. I want the oil pump but I need to prove to myself that it is not worse than doing it with valves, I am concerned with fuel dilution over time. Just what oil temp/duration is required for the fuel to evaporate out? Anyone have facts?
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#2966822 - 04/08/13 11:55 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: meep]
PandT Offline


Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Springfield, Ma.
Originally Posted By: meep
what will the duty cycle of this be? 24/7 around the clock?


Unless the world ends, no. And even then, the valves have to be done.

Think, experiment with pictures and smug self satisfaction that when everyone else uses their oil up and ruins their engines I will still be able to pump gas from a station.. Not a truly credible scenario but hey, I like it.
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#2966825 - 04/09/13 12:09 AM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: lexus114]
PandT Offline


Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Springfield, Ma.
Originally Posted By: lexus114
Well, as long as it will still burn gasoline and not just natural gas. Because if there was a real problem and they shut off the gas service you would be screwed.


As I said previously, I have a tri-fuel kit that I haven't installed yet - Need to pay a plumber to run the 3/4" natural gas line through the concrete wall first but hey, who wants to read through a bunch of rambling crud - no sarcasm involved, I do it myself. I should be able to run propane also but I don't expect any of that to be available either.

It's kind of a thought experiment with pictures that have as a primary supposition that you do no harm, kind of like a doctor that says, well, bionics sounded so cool and the patient can still walk, right?
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#2966960 - 04/09/13 07:56 AM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: PandT]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 4189
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: PandT
Originally Posted By: Cujet

I have a lister CS, diesel generator. It's oil sump is modest in size. I also use a 0.5 micron Motorguard bypass filter as the only oil filter.
Interestingly, the tank settles out contaminates, instead of them remaining in the engine sump.


Sorry for the hack job on your post but -- Lister...

The low speed (~750 RPM) single or dual cylinder diesels?
[censored], I wanted one, spent a great deal of time/energy into research and then the EPA made them illegal in the US - I am still bitter over that. - Any pics??? or Vids???




No pics of the sump attachment underneath. But they are simple AN fittings, with surplus aircraft plumbing and a small tank. Circulation works through natural oil movement. The oil does circulate through the tank without problems and the tank warms up at the same rate the engine does.

I used a Grundfos water pump, which is located just under the radiator. The engine is currently a "stand alone" package, but will eventually be in a generator shed with the radiator on the wall of the shed.
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#2967244 - 04/09/13 12:45 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: PandT]
meep Offline


Registered: 02/20/07
Posts: 2497
Loc: Southeast
omg. I. Want. One.
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#2967269 - 04/09/13 01:19 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: PandT]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: PandT
I am concerned with fuel dilution over time. Just what oil temp/duration is required for the fuel to evaporate out? Anyone have facts?


What fuel do you expect to dilute with the oil? Natural Gas??
If you're going to use it for outages exclusively, and you're running it on natural gas-- ??? What percentage of the run hours do you expect to be on gasoline?

Also, soot loading is a moot point with the Natural Gas, you will never need to change the oil because of soot loading or fuel dilution. Exclusively CNG fleet engines routinely double and triple their OCI for that reason. TBN depletion becomes the main the reason to drain.

For short sporadic runs, you may have to worry about condensation. If you're going to run 80+% on the natural gas, try high Ca, lower ash oil with a high TBN capacity. The idea is to keep the sulfuric constituents of the oil down which may behave badly in the presence of water and may erode the aluminum/brass in the engine, while providing enough buffer to deal with the acidic condensation. Condensing furnaces even have an acid neutralizer to treat the condensation before it hits the drain because sulfuric acid is no joke.
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#2967270 - 04/09/13 01:20 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: Cujet]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: PandT
Originally Posted By: Cujet

I have a lister CS, diesel generator. It's oil sump is modest in size. I also use a 0.5 micron Motorguard bypass filter as the only oil filter.
Interestingly, the tank settles out contaminates, instead of them remaining in the engine sump.


Sorry for the hack job on your post but -- Lister...

The low speed (~750 RPM) single or dual cylinder diesels?
[censored], I wanted one, spent a great deal of time/energy into research and then the EPA made them illegal in the US - I am still bitter over that. - Any pics??? or Vids???




No pics of the sump attachment underneath. But they are simple AN fittings, with surplus aircraft plumbing and a small tank. Circulation works through natural oil movement. The oil does circulate through the tank without problems and the tank warms up at the same rate the engine does.

I used a Grundfos water pump, which is located just under the radiator. The engine is currently a "stand alone" package, but will eventually be in a generator shed with the radiator on the wall of the shed.


That's a pretty slick machine, man!
_________________________
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#2967868 - 04/09/13 11:02 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: jrustles]
PandT Offline


Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Springfield, Ma.
Originally Posted By: jrustles
What percentage of the run hours do you expect to be on gasoline?


After I run out what I have - About 28 Gallons, I don't plan on using gasoline again but I will have the ability to do so if the need arises.

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Also, soot loading is a moot point with the Natural Gas, you will never need to change the oil because of soot loading or fuel dilution. Exclusively CNG fleet engines routinely double and triple their OCI for that reason. TBN depletion becomes the main the reason to drain.


I admit, I do need to change my thinking about oil contamination, I knew I was talking about NG but gasoline was on my mind and it just came out, just getting old I guess.

Originally Posted By: jrustles
For short sporadic runs, you may have to worry about condensation. If you're going to run 80+% on the natural gas, try high Ca, lower ash oil with a high TBN capacity. The idea is to keep the sulfuric constituents of the oil down which may behave badly in the presence of water and may erode the aluminum/brass in the engine, while providing enough buffer to deal with the acidic condensation. Condensing furnaces even have an acid neutralizer to treat the condensation before it hits the drain because sulfuric acid is no joke.


I have a condensing furnace and there is a reason they supply them with condensate pumps which brings me to a concern I had. My oil will be relatively cool (when it leaves the crankcase anyway) and ring blow by may be an issue - I will look up some water seperators.

OK, high Ca (Calcium, right?), Low ash, I never really looked at that, what am I looking for, a spec. for ash content? How low is low? I have read the Oil 101 post so I know that TBN is Total Base Number and has to do with the components of the oil to hold total PH so that acids do not form and that they are depleted as they get used (they have test kits for that).

What about shear? I keep hearing that air cooled, splash lubed engines have a lot of shear, why they would have more than any other piston engine I don't really understand, are they referring to the valve train?
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#2968101 - 04/10/13 08:45 AM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: PandT]
AandPDan Offline


Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 639
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: PandT
What about shear? I keep hearing that air cooled, splash lubed engines have a lot of shear, why they would have more than any other piston engine I don't really understand, are they referring to the valve train?


My understanding is that the primary difference in shear is the temperature that air cooled engines run at causing more breakdown of the oil. Air cooled = oil cooled.

I don't think the valve train itself places any unusual demands on the oil, the spring tensions are much lower than in an automobile.

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#2968374 - 04/10/13 01:07 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: PandT]
HerrStig Offline


Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 3009
Loc: Boston, MA
Lots of air mixing with the oil in a "slinger" system.

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#2968442 - 04/10/13 02:04 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: HerrStig]
AandPDan Offline


Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 639
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Lots of air mixing with the oil in a "slinger" system.


There's a lot of air mixing with oil in a "pumped" system too.

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#2968609 - 04/10/13 04:43 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: PandT]
JimPghPA Offline


Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 2818
Loc: Pittsburgh,PA U.S.A.
One of the concerns would be keeping the oil level in the engines crank-case at a proper level. Assuming that you are only going to use proper filling of the (original engine and add on section(s))so the level of oil in the crank-case is at the normal proper oil level, and you are not going to have any system that would keep the oil at the proper level even if a significant amount of oil was lost to burn-off within the engine. Because you will be increasing the run time between oil changes, and or oil level check. When the oil gets low you will be relying on the low oil shut down switch to protect your engine. And low oil shutdown switches can go bad and not shut down the engine. If that happened it would cause severe engine damage.

So, in order to not have this combination end up with low oil and shut down early in a use, or damage the engine if the low oil switch did not protect the engine. If it were mine, I would use GC, because GC is know for low loss.
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#2968991 - 04/10/13 11:57 PM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: HerrStig]
PandT Offline


Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Springfield, Ma.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Lots of air mixing with the oil in a "slinger" system.

That would be air entrainment, not shear. I believe that having a sump will take care of the entrainment issue. Also, just so that you are aware, I plan on having what is in essence TWO sumps, one on the bottom for the overflow and one on the top feeding the crankcase. I hope to explain further when the appropriate post comes along. I am still learning here at BITOG (Thanks Guys!)
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#2969002 - 04/11/13 12:47 AM Re: Strange Modder Question - Generac GP5500 [Re: JimPghPA]
PandT Offline


Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Springfield, Ma.
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
One of the concerns would be keeping the oil level in the engines crank-case at a proper level. Assuming that you are only going to use proper filling of the (original engine and add on section(s))so the level of oil in the crank-case is at the normal proper oil level, and you are not going to have any system that would keep the oil at the proper level even if a significant amount of oil was lost to burn-off within the engine. Because you will be increasing the run time between oil changes, and or oil level check. When the oil gets low you will be relying on the low oil shut down switch to protect your engine. And low oil shutdown switches can go bad and not shut down the engine. If that happened it would cause severe engine damage.
And what do you know, the appropriate post has just arrived.

Let me explain my current thinking as of now (BITOG has changed several of my first thoughts). The purpose of the system is to increase OCI without harming the generator in any way, to that end I must plan for the system to fail since all systems fail given enough time. I suppose that it would help if I just explained what I was thinking of and then giving as short a description of the theory as possible.

There is an oil fill port that sets the fill level of the crankcase by the drip method (when it drips from here you are full assuming you are on a level surface, stressed in the manual)

There is an oil drain port (To drain the oil from the bottom of the crankcase)

Now, to ensure that there is always a full, to the proper level, crankcase; we have to keep the fill port open while delivering oil to the drain or some other port that I would have to make/install. This reverses the normal thought on oil flow and has one distinct problem, namely, that deposits would accumulate in the bottom of the crankcase since they can't drain normally as during a regular oil change.

The very distinct advantages are that even if my system failed to deliver ANY oil, the crankcase would have the recommended level at the the time of failure and would continue to have it except for normal usage, just as if it had just been filled so that would be my safety factor - About 100 hours since I will be using good oil and burning Natural Gas.

I am still thinking about the plumbing. There are splashing concerns, the afore mentioned build up of [censored] on the bottom of the crankcase, breathing and much else.

I am eyeing an Internal Gear Pump as my pump of choice: I have not chosen yet.

http://vikingpump.com/pumps_internal_gear.asp

Please consider this just at the level of my current thinking, nothing is set in stone until I buy it. I would really like some advise on sealed oil tanks with ports appropriate to my use (1.5 Gallons, Approx.), cost appropriate tubing, fittings and other associated things like valves. I am soliciting any and all advise in this and any other matters or concerns.
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