I can no longer advocate for Synthetic.

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I used to advocate for Synthetic but I find myself not being able to do so anymore. Specifications have increased dramatically making conventional oil a great lubricant for 90% of the population. If you're vehicle requires synthetic or if you've modified your vehicle and/or take it to the track for some hard driving then yes, you'd probably benefit from synthetic. However, for the 90% of us who drive our daily drivers as a tool to get to our destinations with the occasional WOT burst to relieve a little stress or pass the grandma driving 10 under the limit, today's conventional fluids will protect no worse than synthetics.

This isn't a decision I've come up with based on price either, of course if the two fluids were the same price then I'd pick the synthetic because at the end of the day synthetic is the better fluid. However, just because it is a better fluid does not mean that it will be better for my needs. The price difference between synthetic and conventional is pretty insignificant. Cost comparison for the Charger, 6qts @2 OCs a year with Puro Classic filter using Walmart prices:

VWB: $24.43 per oci, $48.86 yearly cost, $244.30 cost after 5 years.
SynPower: $39.35 per oci, $78.70 yearly cost, $393.50 cost after 5 years.

There are two main advantages to synthetic; extended drain capability and cold start protection. Extended drains can be disputed, many OLMs that prescribe conventional usage are running over 6k miles (6k seems to be the magic number for when a lot of people say a synthetic should be used). Cold start definitely cannot be desputed. Synthetics flow better than conventional oil in cold temperatures, however, the vast majority of the U.S. population does not live in an area where the temperatures get cold enough to see a drastic difference between synthetic and conventional. My mom lives near Chicago, temps in the teens are common during winter, I'm still not going to advocate for synthetic during winter for her anymore. If you live in MT, ND, SD, MN, MI, WI, ME, NH, VT, or NY then yes, you will probably benefit from synthetic in the crankcase during winter. For the vast majority of the population though, I don't believe that to be the case.

In addition to what I've stated. Conventional oils today actually contain Group III oils and they do so in order to meet the stringent specifications auto manufacturers are pushing these days. This can be found in this article, retail prices can be telling. Eventually synthetics are going to be the only option for new vehicles, the direction the manufacturers are going in is a clear sign of this. However, as of today, "conventional" oils are being used to "catch up" to their synthetic rivals. This can be seen in the specs as well, flash point is very similar between the two, TBN between the two are also very similar, VI very similar. Other than NOACK and cold flow the differences between the two oils are simply not as drastic as they once were. I do not believe this to be because synthetics are getting worse, rather conventionals are getting better than ever.

At the end of the day the decision is up to the owner of what he or she wants to run, I'm just trying to add some decent discussion (something that seems to have been lost recently) to a great oil website and hopefully a new member can join and learn to be analytical of proof and avoid being caught up in the kool-aid of either synthetic and conventional band camps.
 
I run conventional for 5000, synthetics for 10,000. Synthetics are the better buy for me, plus I save even more buying 50% less filters, too.
 
I think the big hole in the argument against synthetics are direct injection engines. They are becoming very common, and absolutely benefit from low noack oils where synthetic base stocks have a clear advantage. A couple bucks per oil change to reduce intake valve deposits, which are not cheaply cleaned, is well worth it.

Sure, in cars from a decade ago I'd agree.
 
Synthetics don't do it for me either. I do some short trips, my commute is mostly city or stop and go and I don't drive great distances to work. I'd rather dump the oil after winter to get rid of fuel and moisture than extend my OCI to justify the extra cost of synthetics.
 
If you can get a conventional oil on sale, it's almost a no-brainer.

Sure, some might argue for synthetic for longer intervals. But with this collection of OCD folks, I doubt many are going the extended OCI route.

I used synthetics in the 3.0L Toyota V6 known for sludge at 5K intervals. But in the rest of my fleet, it's either every 6mo or 6K miles, whichever comes first on whatever SM or now SN conventional oil I get on sale.

I think the MSRP price difference for synthetics and conventional oils is narrowing. Just looking at Wal*Mart, it's $13-16 for most 5 quart jugs. I think synthetics are about $10 more for the same oil.

Maybe I'm not remembering well, but I was thinking the delta in the past was larger, both in raw dollars and as a percentage.

I suspect some of the advances you mention have narrowed the cost as well as the performance of the two varieties.
 
I will only use synthetics unless I get free oil changes like with Toyota Care. Then when that is done switch to synthetic. All of my cars get severe service and synthetics keep the engines clean. If you plan to keep a vehicle to 200,000 miles you will benefit from synthetics. Otherwise dino is fine.
 
Originally Posted By: bepperb
I think the big hole in the argument against synthetics are direct injection engines. They are becoming very common, and absolutely benefit from low noack oils where synthetic base stocks have a clear advantage. A couple bucks per oil change to reduce intake valve deposits, which are not cheaply cleaned, is well worth it.

Sure, in cars from a decade ago I'd agree.


Absolutely, many of these DI engines spec synthetic though. As I said, if a manufacturer recommends synthetic then it should be used without question. However, if you've got a DI that doesn't spec synthetic then yes I agree with you, switching to synthetic is a definite plus.
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
I will only use synthetics unless I get free oil changes like with Toyota Care. Then when that is done switch to synthetic. All of my cars get severe service and synthetics keep the engines clean. If you plan to keep a vehicle to 200,000 miles you will benefit from synthetics. Otherwise dino is fine.


I think not. If you want an engine to last 200k it's about maintenance.

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Almost exclusively dino, early years on lots of 5w20 MC Synblend. Last several years, whatever major's 5w20 dino is sale priced. One, maybe two max synthetic oci's. Average oci 5500-6k, in 5-6 months. Took the VC off to replace a camshaft position/TDC sensor with is under the timing belt cover, but that's another story for another thread.

Civicvalvetrain-cpsensor005.jpg

Civicvalvetrain-cpsensor012.jpg
 
Auto manufacturers are slowly migrating to hydrocracked dino. IMO this should eventually cause retail stores quit selling, and suppliers to stop producing regular dino over the next 5-10 years. Unless they can come up with a "0w" regular dino which may change things..
 
99% of vehicles have always lived long, happy lives on conventional. I see that changing more and more as OEM requirements change though.
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
If you plan to keep a vehicle to 200,000 miles you will benefit from synthetics. Otherwise dino is fine.


lol.gif
I guess every vehicle I've ever ran into the ground didn't get the memo.
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Auto manufacturers are slowly migrating to hydrocracked dino. IMO this should eventually cause retail stores quit selling, and suppliers to stop producing regular dino over the next 5-10 years. Unless they can come up with a "0w" regular dino which may change things..
+1
 
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: Doog
If you plan to keep a vehicle to 200,000 miles you will benefit from synthetics. Otherwise dino is fine.


lol.gif
I guess every vehicle I've ever ran into the ground didn't get the memo.


I suspect the "run into the ground" point on the new weenie sized 4 banger turbos is going to be different than on an old 327.
 
Originally Posted By: RamFan
I used to advocate for Synthetic but I find myself not being able to do so anymore. Specifications have increased dramatically making conventional oil a great lubricant for 90% of the population. If you're vehicle requires synthetic or if you've modified your vehicle and/or take it to the track for some hard driving then yes, you'd probably benefit from synthetic. However, for the 90% of us who drive our daily drivers as a tool to get to our destinations with the occasional WOT burst to relieve a little stress or pass the grandma driving 10 under the limit, today's conventional fluids will protect no worse than synthetics.

This isn't a decision I've come up with based on price either, of course if the two fluids were the same price then I'd pick the synthetic because at the end of the day synthetic is the better fluid. However, just because it is a better fluid does not mean that it will be better for my needs. The price difference between synthetic and conventional is pretty insignificant. Cost comparison for the Charger, 6qts @2 OCs a year with Puro Classic filter using Walmart prices:

VWB: $24.43 per oci, $48.86 yearly cost, $244.30 cost after 5 years.
SynPower: $39.35 per oci, $78.70 yearly cost, $393.50 cost after 5 years.

There are two main advantages to synthetic; extended drain capability and cold start protection. Extended drains can be disputed, many OLMs that prescribe conventional usage are running over 6k miles (6k seems to be the magic number for when a lot of people say a synthetic should be used). Cold start definitely cannot be desputed. Synthetics flow better than conventional oil in cold temperatures, however, the vast majority of the U.S. population does not live in an area where the temperatures get cold enough to see a drastic difference between synthetic and conventional. My mom lives near Chicago, temps in the teens are common during winter, I'm still not going to advocate for synthetic during winter for her anymore. If you live in MT, ND, SD, MN, MI, WI, ME, NH, VT, or NY then yes, you will probably benefit from synthetic in the crankcase during winter. For the vast majority of the population though, I don't believe that to be the case.

In addition to what I've stated. Conventional oils today actually contain Group III oils and they do so in order to meet the stringent specifications auto manufacturers are pushing these days. This can be found in this article, retail prices can be telling. Eventually synthetics are going to be the only option for new vehicles, the direction the manufacturers are going in is a clear sign of this. However, as of today, "conventional" oils are being used to "catch up" to their synthetic rivals. This can be seen in the specs as well, flash point is very similar between the two, TBN between the two are also very similar, VI very similar. Other than NOACK and cold flow the differences between the two oils are simply not as drastic as they once were. I do not believe this to be because synthetics are getting worse, rather conventionals are getting better than ever.

At the end of the day the decision is up to the owner of what he or she wants to run, I'm just trying to add some decent discussion (something that seems to have been lost recently) to a great oil website and hopefully a new member can join and learn to be analytical of proof and avoid being caught up in the kool-aid of either synthetic and conventional band camps.
Just goes to show ,anybody, can make a mistake.
 
I can still easily buy 20w50 if I wanted it. Dino is not going anywhere. Even if eventually all new cars spec it, older rides will be around a long, long time, people are inherently cheap or misinformed and warranties will expire.

But today's dino's are absolutely better than ever anyway.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: Doog
If you plan to keep a vehicle to 200,000 miles you will benefit from synthetics. Otherwise dino is fine.


lol.gif
I guess every vehicle I've ever ran into the ground didn't get the memo.


I suspect the "run into the ground" point on the new weenie sized 4 banger turbos is going to be different than on an old 327.


Good point. However, most modern turbos are using coolant for cooling, not the oil.

My parents are using MC syn blend 5w-30 in their Escape. We'll see if it outlasts their 08 Wrangler (engine was about ready to grenade at 80K). Theirs lives a pretty easy live - 20 miles straight to work, no stops, just a pretty big rolling hill in the middle that got the engine up to 100% temperature.
 
What about the slight better mpg that synthetics are know for? Who can prove how much but over say over a 10,000 mile OCI it can or would pay for the difference in the cost of dino vs synthetic.

Plus being able to have longer OCI's saves me a lot of oil changing time. One vehicle is no big deal but when one has heavy equipmant, boats, cars, trucks ATV's etc. the time savings is a big deal.
 
Curent ILSAC oil must beat a grpIV PAO synthetic test oil in fuel mileage for PCMO certification.

"Synthetic vs Conventional" is dead AS NO CURRENT ILSAC OILS ARE CONVENTIONAL and most all ILSAC "Fully Synthetic" oils are NOT SYNTHETIC.

You have to compare spec to spec, approval to approval, app to app as big brit oil made the word synthetic near neaningless to the consumer stateside.
 
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