how to clean this carbon? (pics...)
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Huh. No kidding. I've never heard of that being done on an aviation turbine but that doesn't mean anything. Perhaps a jet mech will chime in.
Maybe industrial/marine turbines get more slack since the application isn't as critical. I've heard they're built a little "loose" compared to aviation turbines as they're usually run within a narrower range of air densities ie; they stay at pretty much one altitude. Plus they're tuboshaft while most aviation turbines (for civil airplanes at least) are high bypass. Not sure if that'd matter much in doing what you're talking about though.
I was referring to the blasting of piston engine cylinders but that's interesting to know. Thanks mate.
chenobolyte,
I think that the combination of industrial GTs, Road quality diesel/heating oil for a fuel, and an unregulated maintenance regime lead to this sort of application.
http://www.dennisdawson.com/jetblast.htm
I think that the combination of industrial GTs, Road quality diesel/heating oil for a fuel, and an unregulated maintenance regime lead to this sort of application.
http://www.dennisdawson.com/jetblast.htm
ok, thanks for all the suggestions.
next question - is there something wrong with my car? what would cause all of this carbon build up? I don't think it's burning rich. it V6 auto maxima and gets 23 MPG with a good dose of traffic jams and city driving. not sure if I should be fixing a problem here.
next question - is there something wrong with my car? what would cause all of this carbon build up? I don't think it's burning rich. it V6 auto maxima and gets 23 MPG with a good dose of traffic jams and city driving. not sure if I should be fixing a problem here.
Took quite a few posts before a few of you started to mention WATER.
Seriously, plain ole water... Distilled, or, preferably, osmosis-filtered water....
Here's what ya do- find vacume line that is as close to the throttle body as posible- (on my vehicle, there is on for sucking up the gas-vapors from the carbon chamber located right after the throttle plate)...(good choice because everything can operate whether it is intact or not, even while driving it)
hook a tube to that, have a friend hold the throttle open a bit, (when sucking up water, or seafoam, or anything, the engine tends to bog down, and could die at idle, keeping the rpms up also reduces the risk of hydrolock)... let the tube sip water off the surface of a bucket or bottle of water. Or put one of those air-needles (the little needle-tube used to pump air into a basketball or football) at the end of the tube and just submerge the needle, it will suck it down at a conservative pace.
Seafoam, works on the principle of detergency. It is an effective cleaner, but, in my opinion, isn't all it's cracked up to be...
Water, on the other hand- works well, because, as it comes in contact with hot metal surfaces within the combustion chamber, it flash-boils. The small "explosions" of flash boiling water, blast away carbon deposits.
I have seen some other posts on bitog regarding the comparison of seafoam, to plain-water. Water seems to outperform detergency-based alteratives.
In my personal experience, in which, I admit, doesn't include any look inside the combustion chamber, the water has seemed to perform much better than seafoam. My only look has been pased the thottle plate, into the manifold, which, was cleaned up much better by water than seafoam. Performance did seem to increase after doing a water treatment. Where very little if any difference could be noted after seafoaming several times.
What is EPA estimate of in-town fuel economy?
What year is it? (does it have a modern OBD system?)...
usually- if there is a rich or lean condition, caused by the failure of a component, it will throw a code- so unless you are getting a code, then things are probably running properly.
^Its a newer Maxima, he hasn't said if hes throwing any codes, I doubt he is or he would have mentioned that. I wouldn't worry to much about it myself. Just run a few tanks with Techron and V-power and then take another look, im sure that build-up would be gone. Thats what I did in my Spec-V (2003 Nissan Sentra SER Spec-V) when I had carbon build up and now you can see clear metal on the top of the pistons. I'll try to snap a few photos later today.
water works,use only distilled water and do it slowly...
yes - please show some photos of your results! before and after if you have them.
the Max is a '99 w/ OBDII. no codes. EPA economy specs are something like 21 city 28 hwy. I get between 22 and 23 with about 50/50 mix.
I have been running V power for a month or so and did run a bottle of techron before I took the photos. my next step will be FP60 every tank and one more techron treatment. if I still have the build up, then I'm on to either the water treatment or LC mola-soak. but the thought of putting strong solvents in my fuel or in the chamber does make me a bit nervous.
the Max is a '99 w/ OBDII. no codes. EPA economy specs are something like 21 city 28 hwy. I get between 22 and 23 with about 50/50 mix.
I have been running V power for a month or so and did run a bottle of techron before I took the photos. my next step will be FP60 every tank and one more techron treatment. if I still have the build up, then I'm on to either the water treatment or LC mola-soak. but the thought of putting strong solvents in my fuel or in the chamber does make me a bit nervous.
has anyone heard of negative side effects of using the water treatment? I'd assume it's adviseable to change the oil immediately after?
also - I'm assuming that you do the water treatment on a very hot engine, correct?
also - I'm assuming that you do the water treatment on a very hot engine, correct?
Yes- very hot engine. The only risk, is hydrolocking the engine- however, keeping the rpms up, and sipping the water at a conservative pace will elinimate this risk- having the engine hot further reduced the risk because the water will boil off into a compressable vapor... don't try to do a huge amount all at once, take between 16-32oz, and suck it up slowly- after that, if you wanted to do it again, take it out for a drive to get everything back up to temp and boil out any remaining water.(The water will have a cooling effect on the upper engine area).. If the engine is brought up to temp and the pcv system is working properly, then there shouldn't be too much need for an oil change- though it couldn't hurt. (I would imagine, that there is the possability that some small amount of water could make it's way into the oil during the cleaning, but it would be very minor, and easily evaporate out of the oil when it is hot.)
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I think I'm going to try a 50/50 isopropal/water mix. At work we were bored one night and wanted to see how 1 liter of water and 1 liter of IPA combined added up to less than 2 liters of fluid. Yep, it worked. Then we wanted to see if it would burn ..yes it does ..at least in an open flame environment without a base. When completely spent ..there's a wet spot on the concrete.
I think this would make it easier to induce water. It will still cool the combustion process ..but so does just plain water.
I'm open for alternative (and naturally authoritative) POV
I think this would make it easier to induce water. It will still cool the combustion process ..but so does just plain water.
I'm open for alternative (and naturally authoritative) POV
Chalk up another vote for water. Distilled water from a grocery store doesn't leave mineral deposits. I heat my water just under boiling by putting a 2 liter into the microwave. Then I use a glove and feed the hot water into the PCV valve of a hot running engine. Open the throttle a little so the engine revs to around 2k rpm. Keep the intake manifold hose connected to the PCV valve and lift the valve up a bit to be able to pour water into. There is enough restriction in the valve itself to not worry about hydrolocking your engine.
Distilled water can still contain volitile organic compounds- rarely a problem.. but water from a reverse osmisis filter is even better...
Neithor will contain any dissolved solids, so eithor will be fine.
Neithor will contain any dissolved solids, so eithor will be fine.
Sky Jumper,
Interesting pic through the spark plug hole. Which cylinder is it? I can take a pic of mine (a '97 Maxima with 104,000 miles on it) for comparison if you'd like. I use MMO regularly in my gas, so it would be interesting to see if it is having any effect on the cleanliness. I just posted about MMO saving me gas here: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=003455
There has been some pretty sound advice in this thread. I used to use the water treatment in my '78 Camaro through the carb. I would just pour a quart SLOWLY down the carb throat while keeping the idle up. Car definitely scooted better afterwards. On my Maxima, I have used SeaFoam several times through a vacuum line with noticeable results. The first time was definitely more noticeable than subsequent times (about 10,000 miles apart). So I think it was pretty dirty when I first got the car used at about 54,000 miles, and subsequent uses didn't have as much cleaning to do. I can't say which is more effective; water or SeaFoam, as I haven't used both on the same type vehicle.
I would start conservatively just to be safe. First would be in gas treatments like Techron, and possibly several consecutive tries. Then inspect and go from there. If needed after that, I wouldn't hesitate to use SeaFoam, as I've done it safely with good results. Just do it slowly. If you need, I can take a pic of the vacuum hose I use as it seems it feeds all cylinders equally and is pretty easy to get to.
I can't remember if anyone mentioned using MMO as a piston soak. Pour an ounce through each spark plug hole (it'll land on top of the piston), and let sit overnight. Then crank the engine several times without the plugs to get most of the gunk out. Then re-install the plugs, fire it up, and let idle for several minutes before putting a load on it. Using Techron at the same time may further help the cleaning for after the MMO softens the carbon. And an oil change afterwards may be a good idea incase anything slips past the rings (but VQ30's have some tight clearances, so it should be minimal).
Let me know what cylinder that was and I'll see if I can get a pic of mine for you.
Hope this helps.
Dave
Interesting pic through the spark plug hole. Which cylinder is it? I can take a pic of mine (a '97 Maxima with 104,000 miles on it) for comparison if you'd like. I use MMO regularly in my gas, so it would be interesting to see if it is having any effect on the cleanliness. I just posted about MMO saving me gas here: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=003455
There has been some pretty sound advice in this thread. I used to use the water treatment in my '78 Camaro through the carb. I would just pour a quart SLOWLY down the carb throat while keeping the idle up. Car definitely scooted better afterwards. On my Maxima, I have used SeaFoam several times through a vacuum line with noticeable results. The first time was definitely more noticeable than subsequent times (about 10,000 miles apart). So I think it was pretty dirty when I first got the car used at about 54,000 miles, and subsequent uses didn't have as much cleaning to do. I can't say which is more effective; water or SeaFoam, as I haven't used both on the same type vehicle.
I would start conservatively just to be safe. First would be in gas treatments like Techron, and possibly several consecutive tries. Then inspect and go from there. If needed after that, I wouldn't hesitate to use SeaFoam, as I've done it safely with good results. Just do it slowly. If you need, I can take a pic of the vacuum hose I use as it seems it feeds all cylinders equally and is pretty easy to get to.
I can't remember if anyone mentioned using MMO as a piston soak. Pour an ounce through each spark plug hole (it'll land on top of the piston), and let sit overnight. Then crank the engine several times without the plugs to get most of the gunk out. Then re-install the plugs, fire it up, and let idle for several minutes before putting a load on it. Using Techron at the same time may further help the cleaning for after the MMO softens the carbon. And an oil change afterwards may be a good idea incase anything slips past the rings (but VQ30's have some tight clearances, so it should be minimal).
Let me know what cylinder that was and I'll see if I can get a pic of mine for you.
Hope this helps.
Dave
If you are going to do the water suck, which I just did today, I would suggest the basketball needle, and new plugs.
Many years back when ignition systems still had points, there was lead in the fuel, and tune ups were needed every 12,000 miles, I would do a compression test with every tune up. I would do a wet and dry compression test. I would use ATF for the oil to do the wet test. On the engines that needed to have the heads removed for a burned valve, you could easily see that the ATF softened a lot of the carbon, especially on the good cylinders.
I also frequently did a "decarbon" using the Ford Combustion Chamber Cleaner along with a tune up. That stuff really did remove most of the carbon. Of the available products today, it would probably be most like Seafoam.
So if that were my engine I would pull the plugs and add about a teaspoon of ATF to each cylinder, reinstall the plugs and start the engine (yes, it will smoke a lot). Then I would follow up with something like Seafoam or perhaps Berryman B12.
Using fuel with an appropriate level of detergent in the future will help keep the carbon down.
I also frequently did a "decarbon" using the Ford Combustion Chamber Cleaner along with a tune up. That stuff really did remove most of the carbon. Of the available products today, it would probably be most like Seafoam.
So if that were my engine I would pull the plugs and add about a teaspoon of ATF to each cylinder, reinstall the plugs and start the engine (yes, it will smoke a lot). Then I would follow up with something like Seafoam or perhaps Berryman B12.
Using fuel with an appropriate level of detergent in the future will help keep the carbon down.
Thanks Dave - it was either cyl #2 or 4 (on the front bank) - but they all looked like that. I'd really like to see what yours look like so please take some pics and post. it was a bit tricky to get the zoom and focus right, so you might have to take a few.
thanks for the help.
Joel
thanks for the help.
Joel
Sky Jumper,
I went out and took some pics of my front left cylinder. You weren't kidding about it being tricky getting the pic to turn out. My problem was it was dark out, so getting light and the proper camera angle just didn't happen. I took 19 pics thinking one would turn out, but none show the top of the piston. I'll do it again tomorrow in the daylight, then figure out how to post the pic (surprisingly, the focus and zoom weren't my problem. I got good pics of the area the spark plug threads into, but the top of the piston just shows up as a shadow).
Anyways, mine looks very similar to yours. There is definitely a layer of carbon on the top of the piston. It's hard to tell from your pic, but my carbon appears to be wet and although just a thin layer, actually looks like it would be mushy.
Since we're both basically in the same boat, we should probably try to figure out 1) if our carbon is excessive, 2) what contributed to it, and 3) how to get rid of it.
As for gas, looking back through my gas mileage spreadsheet, the majority of my gas has been Shell 93 octane (the V-Power stuff). Other gas I've used would be from Chevron and Exxon, both in premium and mid-grades. Those are the only 3 brands I've used in over a year. Breaking it down for the past year: Shell 93-23x, 89-8x; Chevron 93-2x, 89-1x; Exxon 93-2x, 89-1x. As you can see, I'm pretty brand loyal.
I've consistently run MMO, usually 5.25 oz per tank. I did go 2 months of running it at 10.5 oz over the summer, but didn't see the benefit of the increased dose. Other additives are: a bottle of Prestone Synthetic Fuel Injector Cleaner in Sept, Gumout Large Vehicle FIC in June, Pyroil gas treatment in April and Dec 04, and a couple runs of Lucas UCL in Jan-Feb. When using these additives, I do not use more than one at a time. I got gas Saturday (Shell 93), and had added 5.25 oz of Lucas. I only have 44 miles on it so far, so I wouldn't have seen the cleaning effect yet when I looked at my piston tonight. I think I'll dump in another 5.25 oz just to see if it has much cleaning ability.
Looking back through my spreadsheet, I would have thought my pistons would be spotless considering the gas and additives I've used. One of the reasons I was using the Shell V-power was for the added detergency. I'm not sure how effective it is after seeing my piston. But then again, how would it look if I hadn't been using it? I don't know.
My plan so far is to run this tank with a total of 10.5 oz Lucas in it, then re-check my pistons. I haven't used Sea Foam since Feb (7500 miles ago), so this may be a good time to check its effectiveness (with before and after pics, too). Actually, after seeing my piston covered in carbon, I'll probably do both of the above. Maybe a piston soak is in the near future if nothing else works. Of course this is subject to change if I read of some other ideas. Keep me informed of what you are planning.
I'll try to get some pics for you, but they'll probably have to wait until daytime tomorrow.
Dave
I went out and took some pics of my front left cylinder. You weren't kidding about it being tricky getting the pic to turn out. My problem was it was dark out, so getting light and the proper camera angle just didn't happen. I took 19 pics thinking one would turn out, but none show the top of the piston. I'll do it again tomorrow in the daylight, then figure out how to post the pic (surprisingly, the focus and zoom weren't my problem. I got good pics of the area the spark plug threads into, but the top of the piston just shows up as a shadow).
Anyways, mine looks very similar to yours. There is definitely a layer of carbon on the top of the piston. It's hard to tell from your pic, but my carbon appears to be wet and although just a thin layer, actually looks like it would be mushy.
Since we're both basically in the same boat, we should probably try to figure out 1) if our carbon is excessive, 2) what contributed to it, and 3) how to get rid of it.
As for gas, looking back through my gas mileage spreadsheet, the majority of my gas has been Shell 93 octane (the V-Power stuff). Other gas I've used would be from Chevron and Exxon, both in premium and mid-grades. Those are the only 3 brands I've used in over a year. Breaking it down for the past year: Shell 93-23x, 89-8x; Chevron 93-2x, 89-1x; Exxon 93-2x, 89-1x. As you can see, I'm pretty brand loyal.
I've consistently run MMO, usually 5.25 oz per tank. I did go 2 months of running it at 10.5 oz over the summer, but didn't see the benefit of the increased dose. Other additives are: a bottle of Prestone Synthetic Fuel Injector Cleaner in Sept, Gumout Large Vehicle FIC in June, Pyroil gas treatment in April and Dec 04, and a couple runs of Lucas UCL in Jan-Feb. When using these additives, I do not use more than one at a time. I got gas Saturday (Shell 93), and had added 5.25 oz of Lucas. I only have 44 miles on it so far, so I wouldn't have seen the cleaning effect yet when I looked at my piston tonight. I think I'll dump in another 5.25 oz just to see if it has much cleaning ability.
Looking back through my spreadsheet, I would have thought my pistons would be spotless considering the gas and additives I've used. One of the reasons I was using the Shell V-power was for the added detergency. I'm not sure how effective it is after seeing my piston. But then again, how would it look if I hadn't been using it? I don't know.
My plan so far is to run this tank with a total of 10.5 oz Lucas in it, then re-check my pistons. I haven't used Sea Foam since Feb (7500 miles ago), so this may be a good time to check its effectiveness (with before and after pics, too). Actually, after seeing my piston covered in carbon, I'll probably do both of the above. Maybe a piston soak is in the near future if nothing else works. Of course this is subject to change if I read of some other ideas. Keep me informed of what you are planning.
I'll try to get some pics for you, but they'll probably have to wait until daytime tomorrow.
Dave
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